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What's So Gay About Yuri!!! on Ice?

LilacSkyAtDawn wrote:

And as for the article itself: I highly doubt Yuuri on Ice is as representative of the LGBT community as the reviewer makes it seem. It's obviously one of their personal favourites, and that's fine, but frankly it's no less blatantly BL-fanservice-laden than any other anime with a predominantly male cast. [...]

I like BL a lot more than you seem to, and would be perfectly happy if YOI was to go in that direction (or not), but nonetheless this is a good point, and one that a lot of commentators, including Jacob, seem to be ignoring: YOI (and other things that people seem to hold in high regard, like No. 6 and that Raguko show), are coming out of a BL background. If Yuuri's and Victor's relationship is made canonical, it will be as a BL story, not as an attempt to portray a "realistic" gay relationship. And in either case I highly doubt that there is more than the most incidental attempt to make the story appealing or relatable to gay men.

I've seen 3 episodes of Keijo and I'm absolutely dumbfounded how anybody could see any yuri (thus far) in the show.

No, no, the all-female sports anime to watch for yuri this season is Scorching Ping Pong GIrls. Episode 5 in particular was the most yuri episode I've seen since the first season of Saki.

Source that this is coming out of a BL background? Because it absolutely is not.

This is an original story by a creator who writes about adult relationships that include a variety of sexualities. So what of the story is about star ice skaters and not dudes trying to live day to day? So what if they're good looking and the show embraces that? It's a mainstream anime, written for a mainstream anime audience. You can't call it BL just because you think it is. And you cannot say that the relationship isn't a realistic gay relationship when a number of LGBT anime fans are embracing it is as just that.

in this article a lot of the reviewer's wording comes across as rather biased towards shows with BL subtext. From what I've seen Izetta, has just as much hints at the girls' love for one another just as Yuri on Ice does, but one gets more praise for LGBT representation while the other is written off with being more "queer" baiting. Same goes for Flip Flappers which has been rather obvious regarding the girls' relationship and how deeply they care for one another. Another poster commented with a link towards more of the creator's works and I would like to know why her work is being regarded as not leaning towards that when clearly she is drawing influence from her past yuri works to form the girls in Flip Flappers? Also with Free! being written off as a-okay with it's very apparent "queer" baiting, while Sound! Euphonium is regarded as regressive for its baiting. We all have biases though, so things like this are unavoidable, but I just don't like it being presented as if one is worse than the other when they're both bad in those regards.

whiskeyii wrote:

Nah, you're just seeing a divide between those that subscribe to Authorial Intent and those that favor Death of the Author.

Can anyone explain why Death of the Author is a valid interpretative method? It's akin to having a book and literally ripping off the pages that don't mesh well or support your interpretation of the text.

The problem with a lot of BL works are not the fact they are BL. Jacob even listed Doukyuusei as a positive example, a movie which is literally straight up BL. If YOI ends with Victor and Yuuri dating then yeah, I guess you could call it BL. What separates Rakugo, No.6 and YOI from regular BL to me is the focus. From the BL series I've sampled, the relationship is the main focus of the story, it's what the story is based on. For the aforementioned series, this isn't the case, it's obviously a big part but it's not THE focus. Maybe there are regular BL series similar to this in manga form but as far as anime goes, I can't think of anything.

Also where the seme/uke thing is concerned, yeah Victor and Yuri do fall into the dominant/passive roles sort of, but the difference here is a) Yuri does not seem particularly uncomfortable with his situation, sure he's taken aback a little at first but I see this more as surprise at his situation (His idol is suddenly here flirting with him) rather than like, discomfort, even taking a more active role himself in recent episodes, and b) The relationship isn't saddled with the same awful tropes that make the typical Seme/Uke relationships so awful (read: rape). It doesn't feel like one party is just having a horrible time, both of them are consenting fully, and it therefore feels more balanced. Doukyuusei is another situation where yeah, they do fall into the Passive/Dominant roles, but they both seem perfectly happy with their relationship. That's the key difference that separates the two.

I mean besides, this article is very specifically about anime depictions, not manga depictions. I'm 100% confident there are some great BL works out there, but if we're looking at it from an anime perspective, the pickings are a lot slimmer

This is funny, ANN once again is taking a controversial topic (which in all honesty isn't) and adding fuel to the fire to get that clickbait ad cash. Even funnier are the people who take this seriously and start arguing.

There really isn't an issue, and there is no controversy, nothing more than the same thing we got with Free! and countless other series that have a similar target demographic. It's funny how these sites provoke fans, and funnier is how the actual fandom reacts.

True, but that's largely a product of market structure. Raguko and No. 6 leave things implicit, so they can be published in josei and shoujo magazines (respectively), which have much larger circulation and can support long serialized stories (there's more shoujo/josei magazines than BL magazines, they typically have longer page counts, they have more frequent publication schedules, etc.). BL is a much smaller market (like 20% the size of shoujo), which means BL magazines have a much lower capacity for long-running series, which in turn means most BL is one-shots and short series. Since the genre by definition must include a romance plot, most works don't have enough room for other major plot elements.

First of all, " the typical Seme/Uke relationship" does not involve rape; coersion has nothing to do with seme/uke coding. There's tons of light fluffy BL with fully consensual relationships, tons of low-key slice-of-life BL with fully consensual relationships, and for that matter there's a lot of angsty moody BL with fully consensual (although possibly very f'd-up for other reasons) relationships. It doesn't have anything to do with dominance either; it is perfectly possible for the uke to be the dominant partner. The most basic distinction is that the uke has one or more of a conventionalized set of relational-role elements that conventional gender roles normally assign to female characters. (And no, that does not mean he's a coded woman, thank you very much.)

I'm not really seeing the article make a distinction between "BL anime" and "BL in general".... As to the second point, I think the situation is as I said in my first post; more women in decision-making positions in the anime industry mean that there is now greater potential for more sophisticated, explicitly adult-female-targeted material, that would normally be considered unacceptably financially risky, to actually get into production.

Polls suggest that the Japanese are either uncaring or hostile towards homosexuality. Why does it rarely cause a commotion? In Canada and the USA, shows with homosexuality can cause issues despite the fact that both countries are more likely to accept homosexuality than Japan.

NearEasternerJ1 wrote:

Polls suggest that the Japanese are either uncaring or hostile towards homosexuality. Why does it rarely cause a commotion? In Canada and the USA, shows with homosexuality can cause issues despite the fact that both countries are more likely to accept homosexuality than Japan.

There's a difference between being hostile towards something and merely be disapproving of it. Not everyone who is against homosexuality is some redneck shotgun-toting southerner. It's entirely possible for people to not accept homosexuality but otherwise have no qualms with them. Gay marriage might not be recognized in Japan like in America, but gays in Japan also don't have to worry about being assaulted or murdered in nightclubs like they do in America. I think trying to push the narrative that America is accepting of homosexuality is a bit questionable. All that can be said for sure is that it's accepted via being recognized by legislation. Public opinion though? Very debatable.

-Stuart Smith

whiskeyii wrote:

Nah, you're just seeing a divide between those that subscribe to Authorial Intent and those that favor Death of the Author.

Can anyone explain why Death of the Author is a valid interpretative method? It's akin to having a book and literally ripping off the pages that don't mesh well or support your interpretation of the text.

NearEasternerJ1 wrote:

Polls suggest that the Japanese are either uncaring or hostile towards homosexuality. Why does it rarely cause a commotion? In Canada and the USA, shows with homosexuality can cause issues despite the fact that both countries are more likely to accept homosexuality than Japan.

There's a difference between being hostile towards something and merely be disapproving of it. Not everyone who is against homosexuality is some redneck shotgun-toting southerner. It's entirely possible for people to not accept homosexuality but otherwise have no qualms with them. Gay marriage might not be recognized in Japan like in America, but gays in Japan also don't have to worry about being assaulted or murdered in nightclubs like they do in America. I think trying to push the narrative that America is accepting of homosexuality is a bit questionable. All that can be said for sure is that it's accepted via being recognized by legislation. Public opinion though? Very debatable.

-Stuart Smith