Forum - View topicVinland Saga (TV) (all seasons).
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Harleyquin
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You may disagree with my assertion, but there's more than enough information to conclude he's definitely not from Arabia. I'm almost certain he's ex-Varangian Guard based on his traits shown to date, and I would be very surprised if he wasn't since no one travels to Constantinople from the Norse lands and can claim to be a warrior of Miklagard without serving with the Varangian Guard. |
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ACｘS
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I can't disagree with any assertions to be honest because I don't know much about Norse history (or even just history in general). I can only guess purely what I see. That's how I've always appreciated this show. |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23833 |
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I don't know much about real Norse history either but I think it would be rather unusual for an Arab to be living in Denmark at this time. Plus, an Arab of the period would likely be Muslim and therefore unlikely to be as conversant with the Bible as Snake is.
Episode 18 Well, that went the way with Arnheid that I expected... unfortunately. Given that she was a favourite of Ketil's, what he would view as a betrayal would have an extra sting for him. My only surprise is that it does not seem that Thorfinn or Einar have been punished. Whether this is just because the punishment is being deferred or whether because Ketil plans to sell them to Leif, I don't know. But given they tried to help Arnheid escape, I'm surprised that something hasn't happened yet. Ketil has no intention of giving her up, so if she's to make the voyage to Vinland, Thorfinn and Einar will have to steal her. Not sure Leif would allow it. And of course, the long-awaited Battle for Ketil's Farm is finally here... almost. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2875 |
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#18
A lot of the episode hinges on whether viewers are willing to accept Ketil's state of mind when he hears the news about Arnheid's attempted escape at the instigation of her husband. This is made worse by the news being broken to him by his wife (who hates Arnheid) and what happened prior to the voyage back from Harald's court. The animators even added montages of Ketil's previous fiancee (whose story we are told via Sverkel's recollection to Arnheid) when he was thrashing Arnheid with the rod. Unlike the two thieving children, he actually added more force than he probably would have done if he was in a normal state of mind. Even if Arnheid does survive, she's almost certainly going to have a miscarriage and with what is to come there is little guarantee she is going to escape even if she was physically and mentally capable of doing so. Having seen what happened to Arnheid, I think Snake would have no problems assuaging his men's fears that Arnheid was getting off lightly. The first method mentioned in the episode title is something Thorfinn would like to aspire to, but that is going to be impossible for as long as he remains where he is. If he truly wishes to create his own utopia, it is Vinland or bust as there is no way that's ever going to come to pass while he remains in Northern Europe. One of the biggest ironies about the episode title is that the "first method" to conflict resolution is and always has been violence, not the method which Thorfinn would like to see as the first to be employed when there are two irreconcilable differences that must be resolved. I like the part where Thorfinn says he likes Snake for being honourable and principled despite being tied up for his role in the attempted escape, and in the same episode Snake promptly stops Ketil from killing Arnheid by bringing him to his senses. Leif Ericson has saved a life indirectly through his quest for the real Thorfinn, and it is telling that viewers are not shown what reaction Leif had when he finally meets Thorfinn. Something to look forward to next episode, as it appears the battle has reached Ketil's farmstead and Leif is caught up in it regardless of what he intends. At least, Ketil kept his promise with regards to Thorfinn and Einar despite his state of mind. Should we take Canute's word that he would rather not waste lives in fruitless combat? After all, he still sees and hears his father's severed head on the ship. If he is genuinely aiming for a peaceful resolution and for Ketil to submit to the confiscation willingly, he's not going to get it since Ketil isn't giving up without a fight together with his bloodthirsty eldest son. Since the battle is coming up, how much blood will be shed before Canute gets his way (as I do not expect anything other than the crown's victory given the assets available to it)? Last edited by Harleyquin on Tue May 09, 2023 5:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23833 |
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The way the Arnheid and Ketil situation was handled once again demonstrates how sophisticated and sure-footed the story telling of this show is. I say that because as much as I deplore what Ketil did, from a purely character standpoint and given the time, place and society it occurred in, as a viewer you can understand where it came from. I'm sure we can all imagine the cheap, standard version of that scene.
What elevates it to an impactful tragedy, imo, is the time and care that was taken to establish these characters. We have seen that Ketil, especially given the times and the society he lives in, is a decent man. Given his druthers, he would happily just concentrate on keeping the farm prosperous and dealing with all and sundry in a fair way. However, circumstances intervened. He has spent God knows how long curled up in a barrel and was basically in a catatonic state when he arrives back at the farm. Then the first bit of news he's hit with is that his favourite slave tried to escape. Of course, he knows none of the context. As far as he knows, her "old flame" just popped up and Arnheid happily and without a care in the world decided to prance off with him. Given his current state of mind, I'm not sure knowing the context would have made much difference to him, but it certainly didn't help matters. As I say, I don't condone what he did, I have a ton of sympathy for poor Arnheid who asked for none of this, but I can appreciate the way this was all handled. |
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ACｘS
Posts: 896 |
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18:
I knew it was foreshadowing when Einar said "Ketil wouldn't be too hard on Arnheid, would he?". We know that we can be toughest to the ones we hold dear the most. You know, strangely, in the grander scheme of things, this could be a turn for the better. Ketil is a good man, but he has always hated himself for being a coward. But after all the shit went down, and how everything he holds dear is starting to slip past him—his dignity for paying the king for protection, his farm, his son Thorgil (after realizing how violent he has become), his son Olmar (after realizing how he is following Thorgil's footsteps), and now Arnheid—he finally snaps and decides to take no more shit from anyone, not even King Canute. If he had remained cowardly, I'm not sure if the farm stands a chance at surviving at all. So now, we have a conundrum: Leif can buy Thorfinn and Einar, but surely they don't leave Arnheid, whom Ketil isn't letting go. But Ketil now has a battle ahead of him so he will have his hands busy. Are Thorfinn and Einar planning to escape with Leif and Arnheid? If so, how, especially with Arnheid almost dead? Will Thorfinn meet up with King Canute, and their reunion changes the course of the battle? This is going to be interesting.
Here's the amazing thing about the show's storytelling: it zooms into Arnheid's tragedy, and the audience could feel sorry for her losses. But in the age of Vikings, this is probably the norm: how many people lose their families with all the pillaging going on? Slavery was commonplace, Einar lost his family, and Thorfinn lost his father and was practically kidnapped by his father's killer. Arnheid's losses aren't unique per se, but the show explores it in a masterful way so the audience feels for her loss the most. |
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yuna49
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I doubt Ketil will survive the coming catastrophe. Whether that means Arnheid can escape is an open question.
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ACｘS
Posts: 896 |
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Also, I just realized what a perfectly ironic allegory this turn of events has become. On one hand we have Ketil, who started as benevolent and pacifistic and simply snapped at the end, and just became violent and bloodthirsity. On the other, we have Thorfinn, who started out thirsting for revenge, but saw an epiphany and became pacifist.
Such an ironic twist of fate. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23833 |
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Season 2, Episode 19
I didn't forsee Ketil raising a peasant army of debtors. Also, we learn where this "Iron Fist" Ketil business came from but we still don't know what prompted Snake to go on the run and end up at Ketil's (the wrong one) farm. Given Arnheid's sojourn in the metaphysical forest, I think we can safely assume her unborn child didn't make it, given that Gardar told her that he'd be waiting for her with "the children." Looks like she may live to see Vinland, after all. Can't wait to see Thorgil's sneak attack next week! |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2875 |
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#19
As a large landowner with many indentured labourers on his books, it's not a surprise Ketil was able to raise numbers to his side. However, both Thorgil and Snake knew hardly any of the levies would be a match for the best military forces Denmark could muster. The only question would be how many would die on Ketil's end before he would learn the hard way that overwhelming quality trumps quantity on a battlefield with no advantage given to sheer numbers. The initial archer skirmish should have been a harbinger for things to come, but Ketil being the con artist he is fails to appreciate this. Thorgil intends to use the numbers as cannon fodder and bet everything on decapitating the enemy general and forcing the win for his family, and he's got most of it right so far. Somehow I doubt it's going to be easy as he thinks when Canute has just two bodyguards and body armour on him. Snake has again revealed more of his background, but not enough to definitively reveal his origins. He knew the actual Iron Fist and actually learnt fighting skills under him, but in his flight from exile learnt the hard way that imposters get away with their cover stories easily in 11th century Europe. Still, Snake had no where to go and needed room and board so took up the job of guard dog. He picked up more exiles during his stint, and it is to their credit that they stood by Snake even though their first instinct was to run and their second was to ambush their former paymasters for mercy. How Snake would have loved to have Thorfinn under his command, but in one of the biggest battles in years this time Thorfinn is just a bystander (and now a bona-fide kidnapper). He already knows the battle will go poorly for Ketil's men, so that's why they seized the chance to make a break for it despite Arnheid's condition. Good luck to Pater, since there's every chance he's going to be killed fulfilling his responsibilities to the household. As for Arnheid, it looks like we won't see her for much longer. If the vision is a true reflection of her physical and mental state, she has been allowed time to say her farewells in the world of the living before she rejoins her family. One of the great tragedies of this arc will thus come to a close; a reflection of the times this franchise is set in but made worse by how avoidable it should have been given the circumstances leading to it. |
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ACｘS
Posts: 896 |
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19:
So far, what I had imagined would happen, is indeed happening. Thorfinn and Einar do is trying to skedaddle with Arnheid amidst the chaos, and Ketil is fighting a losing battle. Thorgil and Olmar make their own game plan, but I don't think it's going to be that simple. Canute definitely has something up his sleeve. I was asking if Thorfinn would eventually meet up with Canute and if that meetup would change the course of the battle. Let's see if that indeed happens. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23833 |
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Season 2, Episode 20
I was hoping Arnheid was going to make it but I guess with an episode title like "Pain" that wasn't ever in the cards. Too bad. I would have loved for her to have laid eyes on Vinland. I was glad to see Canute in danger and actually I wish Thorgil had been successful in killing him. He's clearly the kind of leader that is simply going to cause suffering to the innocent in the name of his own ambition. Be interesting to see what, if anything, Thorfinn is able to accomplish by meeting with him. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2875 |
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#20
There's a smorgasbord of the episode title's concept to be had in this week's episode. Whether it's the physical pain of Ketil's men getting slaughtered by the Jomsvikings, the mental anguish of Arnheid as she musters the last of her strength to say goodbye to those who have risked much to take care of her in her last days or the emotional turmoil felt by Einar as he sees Arnheid die despite Thorfinn's best efforts. Plenty of pain to be had, but this episode isn't so unique as it merely reinforces a long-running theme in this franchise. 11th century Northern Europe is a cruel place when war comes to the doorstep and most people don't have the martial prowess nor political authority to shield themselves from its ravages. Surprising that Snake's second in command Fox only had 13 kills to his name despite his bravado when he was beating up Thorfinn. The latter actually lost count of his kills and is weighed down by them even now. The old adages that "There's always something stronger and better than you are somewhere out there" and "It's lonely at the top when you're the best in your field" apply as they have done over the centuries. Snake certainly put in the work despite his misgivings. He successfully killed at least two Jomsvikings/King's Guard and realised it was a hopeless situation once they went on the offensive. He even stayed behind to keep the King's Guard busy while the rest of Ketil's men made a break of it. To top it off, he was decent enough to stay around for Arnheid's burial even though he didn't have to (and it is telling that unlike Ketil Thorfinn and Einar did not object to his presence, or they were too grief-stricken to care). Ketil is once again reminded of what happened when he lost his first bride when his family did not have the military might to stand their ground. Borrowing the fame of someone else has its limits, and they are shown up brutally here because might really does make right. His tenant would never have said what he did to his face in any other circumstances, but the truth hits so hard even Ketil had to accept it. The monologue given during Thorfinn's gaze into the sea towards the end is voiced by Canute, a series of lines he said back in the first season if I recall. Even if it was his ambition which directly led to the carnage unleashed, he did say a few episodes ago that he did not want the battle if possible and was happy enough to accept Ketil's surrender had he agreed to the messenger's terms. Like his episode in England when he was on tour, he did give orders to the Jomsvikings to not attack fleeing enemies nor pursue Thorgil on account of his bold gamble. Perhaps if Fate really meant to punish him for his ill-conceived ambition, Thorgil would have succeeded with his assassination attempt despite the odds seemingly favouring the ambush. That he failed because Canute did just enough to keep his head on the shoulders is the author's nod to history; after all this is fiction and the last North Sea king certainly achieved much in his lifetime regardless of how those achievements were accrued. For the first time since Sven Forkbeard's assassination, it appears Canute and Thorfinn will meet once again. No idea what Thorfinn is planning, as I doubt he's going to revert to his old ways to fight his way into the camp. He wants Canute to stop the bloodshed, but he's going in with little more than his bare hands and his past as Canute's bodyguard when Ashkeladd was holding him hostage. Seeing as next week's episode title is "Courage", Thorfinn is going to need to embody the concept if he wishes to press his claims successfully. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23833 |
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Actually, Harleyquin, you are right to point out those factors which mitigate what I view as Canute's negative actions. As you would expect from a quality series like this, he is no one-dimensional villain. I'm just down on him because of his intention to expropriate Ketil's farm. It offends my sense of fair play that a guy like Ketil can work hard to create a prosperous enterprise, treat people (relatively) fairly and his reward is to have it all taken away from him.
It's no astute observation to note that Canute and Thorfinn are almost mirror images of each other. Thorfinn started off violent and wild and has converted to pacifism. Canute was soft and mild and became hard. But both are haunted by their deeds. Their meeting should be quite interesting. |
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ACｘS
Posts: 896 |
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20:
Hmm, so my speculation was not entirely wrong, but just a bit off. The battle ended not with a bang but a whimper (somewhat), with Thorgil's failed attempt triggering the ceasefire. I was actually imagining Thorfinn meeting Canute during the actual battle itself, not during the ceasefire, but they are apparently meeting up after all. In the grander scheme of things, it is kinda meant to happen. They know each other, and on opposite paths. I imagine that Thorfinn is going to plead for peace and non-violence and Canute argues that that's simply naive and futile. Not exactly sure how it will end, but likely Canute will simply give up on the farm simply because it's not worth it (iirc, exploiting the farm was just an idea to expand his power without receiving negative public opinion; his influence isn't gonna tank if he goes with something else). |
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