Forum - View topicFanscans affecting manga market
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darkhunter
 Posts: 2992 Location: Los Angelas |
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You can go to the library and borrow it for free too. Heck, you can watch anime on tv for free too. You don't owe it, they want you to own it though. And there's a difference, because scan, you actually own the propertie. YOu can view it whenever you like, copy and send to other people...basically own the scan. Also you're just talking from 1 personal experience, but there are tons of other people online (mostly in the scan forum) not buying manga...simply becaues they have no patience. For example, I heard many people say they won't be buying the Berserk manga due to slow release and years to collect, and they can always be up to date with the scan. |
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IvoryBirch
 Posts: 137 Location: a distant northern land |
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Yes, I know they're very different (like I said, my argument is somewhat fallacious), but I still stand by what I said. All of these methods still affect the market, albeit in different ways. Also, one could easily tape the episodes off the television and thus "own" them for free. I doubt anyone would take the time/effort to scan or photocopy manga though...
Ah, I realize that my post was mostly in my defense, which is pretty pathetic, but I think my experiences apply to many other readers as well (like my twin sister for one). That doesn't mean that they're aren't those who read scanlations alone; I know that there are plenty of people out there who don't like paying a few bucks for a manga. And that does have an effect on the market, but I don't think it's a big enough problem for manga publishers to worry (it would be quite a royal pain the arse to get all of these scanlation sites shut down anyhow, akin the the fiasco with downloading music). Again, please excuse me for my lack of debating skills! |
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s_j
Posts: 162 |
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But once something is on the net, it's on there for good...just because a scanlator group stops distributing it themselves, does not mean their scanlation is out of circulation.
So are fansubs, war3z, and movies...they eventually trickle through to usenet and p2p.
I'll concede that the effects of scanlations (and scanning in general) on the U.S. market is as of yet undetermined...but it does have bigger effects on certain genres than others. If we are to go by the amount of erotic manga traded over the net, there should be hundreds of thousands of paying readers for adult manga. There is not (unfortunately for me.)
I don't really think that can be taken as fact...perhaps Kenshin sells just well enough for Viz not to care aout the scanlations. Just because a company doesn't take action, does not mean they approve of it. As pointed out in similar threads about fansubbing, some Japanese production companies and creators do not approve of the practice at all, but simply choose not to pursue it because of the cost involved. To me, that's like a slap in their face. If scanlators are really sure they're doing a service to the industry, ask the copyright holders for permission. Then they'll know for sure whether the copyright holders approve of it or not.
Please understand I'm not making any moral judgement or criticizing you in any way...but when you complained about this to eBay, was it only because you felt it was wrong for them to sell pirated material? Or was it, at least in part, because they used your translation and scans without authorization? They didn't hurt you financially, since you're not making any profit from your fan activity anyway, but doesn't that make you feel the least bit violated? If you do, then surely you must understand the position of those who are against scanlating and fansubbing. |
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Vicwic
Posts: 9 Location: UK |
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Speaking from a largely uninformed perspective, as far as I'm aware one of the triggers for the translation and publication of shoujo manga was due to companies monitoring fanscan sites and seeing what was going on.
I bet they would never have taken the risk otherwise, in particular with yaoi and shonen-ai manga. And as far as I'm concerned, squinting at pictures on a computer screen is nothing like as good as reading the proper manga. Fansites tempt me to buy the manga. |
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littlegreenwolf
 Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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I addressed this issue. Unlike war3z, movies, and fansubs, you can't just produce a copy off the computer that's anywhere as good as owning the actual product. I don't think for a minute scanlations will ever be a threat to the market, and it's be admitted with interviews by some people in the industry that it actually helps.
I can assure you that at least 90% of that erotic manga over the net is doujinshi, which you can't sell here anyway really.
Vice Prez of Tokyopop *which is a company that holds manga rights her in the US*, Steve Kleckner likes what scanlations do to the industry. Would "Fruits Basket" -- a quirky romantic comedy about a young girl who becomes the housekeeper for a family whose members are cursed to transform into animals whenever they're embraced by members of the opposite sex -- have been picked up for U.S. release without its overwhelming popularity on scanlation sites? Possibly -- but the built-in fan base scanlators provided has helped turn the series into one of TokyoPop's best-selling titles. "Frankly, I find it kind of flattering, not threatening," says TokyoPop's Steve Kleckner. "To be honest, I believe that if the music industry had used downloading and file sharing properly, it would have increased their business, not eaten into it. And, hey, if you get 2,000 fans saying they want a book you've never heard of, well, you gotta go out and get it." The whole interview, which gives quite an indepth look at scanlation, tied in with the whole manga industry here, can be read at http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2004/06/14/manganation.DTL It was quite a pleasant surprise to scanlators when this interview came out. Turns out the American manga industry doesn't hate us, they're just turning a blind eye to us for the good of their business. There have been a couple situations where the Japanese compyright holders of manga have gotten involved with scanlations, but it's only happened about three times, and all they said is they did not wish their material to be able to be downloaded from a website. Most manga scanlations are transfered via IRC now anyway.
Of course I was pissed when I found my scanlations on ebay. I dont' support the selling of pirated materials. We made our scanlations to be downloaded only, and read by fans who had no other acess to the manga. Not so that some dumbass on ebay could make a profit off of us and our fandom. I complained, and they removed my scanlations. I also reported him to ebay since he was selling several other group scanlations, and I haven't seen him since. If I wanted to, I could hunt down all of them on ebay, but I have a life. Another thing, you keep putting scanlating and fansubbing on the same level, and it just isn't the same. Seriously, why can't people realize that you just can't print out a manga you buy off the net? You can download fansubs, and burn them to a dvd and have the equivalent to what dvd you could buy here licensed. It's just not the same with scanlations. The only "industry" most groups who scanlate titles that are never going to be licensed, would, if at all, be the Japanese industry. However, I don't believe they're too upset over loosing a ton of English readers when they're only releasing it in Japanese. People scanlating licensed titles are POSSIBLY hurting the selling of a title here, but that'll be a very slim percentage. Like I said earlier, people, when reading, like to curl up somewhere and get comfortable. If you want to read you're favourite book, you go out and buy it so you can get comfy while reading. You don't go sit in front of your computer, look it up, and get ready to read for hours at the desk. That's what scanlations have going for them. I still don't think at all that I hurt ANYONE from scanlating. My group scanlates only three titles, none of which are licensed here in the US, and two of those have a very slim chance of every being licensed here. Other than those 3 titles, we scanlate doujnshi, which we really don't have to worry about licensing inssues with. I got into scanlating for one sad reason: The Mythical Detective Loki manga wasn't licensed. I ran into a couple other girls distressed that it wasn't getting licesed, and looked like it never would. There however was a big demand for translations of it from fans who saw fansubs of the anime. So we got together, and started scanlating it. Now? ADV owns the rights to the last 5 volumes of the manga, but they skipped the first 7. By doing this ADV has pretty much put a death sentence on the property here because the only people who will buy the last 5 volumes of this series will be the people who've read the first 7. The only availible English version of the first 7 volumes is what my group releases. Anyone else who hasn't read it in English, but has read the first 7 volumes read it in Either Chinese or Japanese. I guess I sound sort of full of myself here, but it's true. The last 5 volumes of the series can't stand alone, and ADV is just screwing the real fans of the series who were into it before it got licensed. They aren't making new fans, they're just releasing it to the current fanbase here in America. And there is still no sign of them licensing the first 7 volumes, but if they do, I will happily delete all my scanlation work from my irc channel concerning the property, and stick with doujinshi. I'm doing this for the actual fans. We'd all happily quit and buy licensed versions of this stuff, but it's not out. The only way I see scanlations becoming a threat to the American industry would be if those electronic book things really did get common here. However, the market has found that Americans just aren't intrested in them. Japan has reasons for them, mainly recycling issues. We don't because we have no problem with cutting down trees. |
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Arkard
 Posts: 677 Location: Poland |
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Now... all the things you wrote are simply too long for me to read, but bear with me as I state my point on this matter.
Many of you talk about removing scanlations forever as they negatively affect the manga industry. But what about the other countries? I mean, in Poland there is virtually no chance for me to get my hands on certain titles. On the other hand I cannot complain because we do have quite alot licensed titles here.... but the manga industry in Poland is still too scared to give us what we really want. So it will be a cold day in hell before I will get my hands on Berserk, I''s, Trigun or many other titles. So what do you reccomend I do? Simply accept it and never read them? Or maybe I should use scanlations. Well I chose the second option. Also - many of you reccomend ordering the title online. One thing, there is no PayPal service in Poland, and second, the prices which seem fair to americans (in $) are outrages to me. I mean.. if I had to pay 15$ for one volume (and I dont know if that is all I would have to pay for international shipping) well... being a student and all I could easily eat one full dinner for 5 days for those 15$. I know that the lack of money doesnt really justify using pirate material but still.... with those kind of prices ordering from the US is still a dream. Maybe America doesn't need scanlations but Europe, and escpecially Poland, does. It really does. So before any of you judge the rightesnous of scanaltions think about the people in less fortunate countries who dont have the kind of manga variety you do, and who would really want to expand their views and get to know manga titles which will never appear in their country. |
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littlegreenwolf
Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Like you said Akard, lack of money doesn't really justify using pirated material. I think it's nuts we're having to pay 10 bucks per regular manga volume here, but I still buy. It used to be 12+ for manga volume, but thankfully the industry is doing better. Darkhorse is really the only one out selling for more than that. As to there being no paypal avalible there, how about an actual credit card?
You shouldn't look to scanlations as a cheap, alternative way out. There there to get fans intrested in non-licensed manga. Manga that doesn't have an official English release. But I guess if your country isn't a Native English speaking country, you have the fan created right to download scanlations. |
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s_j
Posts: 162 |
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The same can be said of fansubs to some extent (AVIs don't look as good as DVD), but that doesn't change the fact that scanlations appropriate the intellectual, creative content, and that's what's really being protected, not the paper it is printed on. And wouldn't scans be in competition with E-Books (whenever they decide to finally adopt it here)?
I'm sure it won't hurt the market...until publishers start to embrace e-books, as they have in Japan. Some people in the industry does not speak for the entire industry. Just as there are those professionals who support it, there are those who quietly abhore it. The question is, do scanlators make an effort to find out?
And doujinshi authors should expect no ownership for their works? Then maybe scanlators should expect no protection for their translations, either. By page count, doujinshi is certainly not 90% of what is traded online...a visit to any number of usenet or web image gallery and one is bound to find lots of commercial material. Even material licensed for the U.S....porn, mainstream, or otherwise.
err...Kenshin? Viz has the rights to that one, doesn't it...
Oh, you meant Fruit Baskets...well, good for them. They approve and that's fine. I'm sure that a lot of companies see some benefit to scanslations, and I don't have a problem with that...what I do have a problem with is that scanlators work under the assumption that it's okay for them to scanlate everything that has not been published. There are times when companies have asked scanlations/fan translations to be removed. And a few times, scanlators have refused to do so. You keep bringing up the financial benefits of scanlations for companies, but sometimes it's not just about the money, and the financial benefits doesn't hold true for all companies.
So you support the downloading of pirate material, just not the selling, eh? What if someone distributes them freely, but just replaces your name with theirs? Or alter your translation slightly, and attribute it to you? If scanlating is okay, a lot of (perceived) grey area activities become okay, too. Part of the problem IS the fact that you cannot hunt down all the abusers on ebay...scanlators create an easy way for comics to be pirated, but distance themselves from all the potential ill side effects. Scans find their way to websites with paid advertising, or pirate versions on ebay...and there's no way you can find and catch them all. *Uncondoned* free distribution of copyrighted material is still piracy, just without the guilt or responsibility.
Well, to me, they are the same, insofar as redistributing intellectual property without permission, regardless of the quality of the delivery medium. You make the differentiation based on their relative impact on the market, which is fine. I just feel there are certain absolute standards that should be upheld. Jumping to a tandem, I really don't have a personal problem with scanlators or fansubbers in general. I really don't. I'm sure most are fine people, and dedicated to the fandom. But the reason I feel compelled to respond to such posts is because everytime this becomes an issue, I see people spouting incorrect information and morally weak rationalizations. The whole "they don't care" or "it's not licensed, so it's legal" schtick is simply preposterous. Why there even needed to be a discussion when Media Factory demanded their fansubbed anime be pulled illustrates the self-denial which are the underpinnings of some of the fansub/scansub fandom, but moreso the people who consume fansubs/scansubs. (They may be a minorty, but looking at the responses on ANN they are quite a vocal one.) This is the kind of attitude that may on day force the Anime industry to take the hardline stance that MPAA and, god forbid, RIAA has chosen. Let's be honest, scanlating and fansubbing are not 100% altruistic endeavors...the currency you trade in is simply kudos instead of cash. |
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Arkard
Posts: 677 Location: Poland |
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thats exactly how I use it. I only have scanlations of titles that dont have a Polish license yet.. well I do have some English licensed scans but hey, I cant get the english translated manga here so I feel I am justified to have them. I love real manga - I own about 200 volumes so far but what I cant get in book form I own in electronic form. Thats all, really.
I guess that could work but still - prices that seem "normal" to Americans (because they are in $) feel alot higher to me when you change them to Polish currency. Simply - whatever you buy, multiply the price by 3 and you will know how I see the price. |
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Gauss
 Posts: 519 Location: Finland |
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Probably, as not just the price (free) but also space is a major attraction of scanlations. You can replace half a meter of shelfspace with a single CD filled with manga. For those of us who have shelves bulging with books, comics, CDs, DVDs and whatnot we have to think twice about what we buy. Affording physical items is not so much a problem as affording bigger living space. E-mangas could be a good alternative, as long as a decent format can be found (PDF would definitely be out of the question). It's not impossible to create electronic versions that are almost as easy and quick to read as paper editions. Scanlations rarely achieve that ease of use which means it's a rather slow crawl to read through them. I used to get headaches too but found that it helps if I darken the screen, drink lots of tea and don't read when hungry. Unfortunately almost all scanlations are optimized for screens that are at full brightness. So basically, licensed e-mangas that avoid the various pitfalls would be warmly welcomed by me. |
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amarythia
ANN Reviewer
 Posts: 14 Location: New Jersey |
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[quote="Haiseikoh 1973"]
Probably because there isn't much demand in the US for an electronic "book reader." I mean, why buy an expensive piece of equipment that'll probably break or malfunction in a few years when you can do exactly the same operation (read a book) in paper, which is cheap and durable, short of fire and water? |
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kamiboy
 Posts: 570 Location: CA |
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Because paper is murder you anarchist!
-- Please don't take me seriously |
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deathbringer
Posts: 276 |
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Honestly, I'm surprised by the amount of discussion in this thread. Bookstores have chairs. People sit in said chairs and read books without having to pay for them. I think that would have a bigger effect on the manga market then someone downloading scanlations of a manga that's not even licensed. If you're downloading a manga that is licensed, then it's just like a bookstore at home! Some people will buy the books, and some people won't. I don't think the presence of scanlations changes that at all.
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