Forum - View topicAnswerman - Terrible People
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Paiprince
 Posts: 593 |
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Sorry man, but you are guilty of lazy cynicism. Your generalizations and close-mindedness were showing at the seams of your post. Anyways, Jose may need to get thicker skin since the internet and complaining go together like chicken and gravy. Add anime into the mix and you've got yourself a meal fit for a king. Yeah, I think he's been hanging out with people he hates too much (or browsing /a/ all day every day hoping for a decent discussion beyond juvenile hate watching and sexual deviancy). You won't be able to find that special hugbox where everyone agrees and respects your tastes and interests. There's always gonna be that jackhole who thinks he's cool for trying to be contrarian and riling things up. I have invested anime pretty heavily for the past few decades and enjoy the medium in a variety of genres. (I loved Lucky Star just as much as I loved LOGH). You know what some people call me? No taste. Yeah. Anyways stop getting hung up about this non-existent persecution and you'll sleep better at night. Which leads me into that cynicism thing. Strangely, I started out as one of those 2cool4u anime elitists who only watches and enjoys unconventional and avant-garde shows. But as I grew older it hit me. Who the hell am I going to impress by being such a snobby, jaded nerd? And so I ventured into genres I wouldn't have touched before and lo and behold I ended up liking anime for what it's worth even more. Granted there are anime that have made me a bit upset about it for whatever reason but I just brush it off by finding something it did right. It's sad that I seem to be one of those minority case studies. Them's the breaks. Last edited by Paiprince on Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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configspace
Posts: 3717 |
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Justin, while I agree that the discrimination against anime or manga in general is not institutional, there is one case related to the above discussion on obscenity where it is likely implicitly so.
Some may be aware of Ryan Matheson's case, but one of the reasons why he got in trouble, is reflected in the fact officials are on the lookout for anything related to anime/manga, as told by this encounter back in 2006:
And I believe the same applies to the US, especially after Handley's case (it was the post office that started the whole thing). It doesn't happen that often overall because of nature of the charge requires proving it is offensive enough to some community standard which requires court and legal process, so is not a black/white letter-of-the-law defined crime, hence why so many internet sites still stay up. But if officials like police or District Attorneys are pressed, or if they are in charge of inspection, then I believe anything anime/manga-like is more at risk of criminal prosecution. |
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omiya
 Posts: 1833 Location: Adelaide, South Australia |
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I'm reminded of a scene in the Dilbert animation where a doctor tells Dilbert's mother that her son will be an engineer. I failed engineering at university, but can understand some of the discrimination / lack of idealism present in business. (I'd like to be able to work doing software support with Free/Libre software without having to deal with Microsoft products, but industry seems to make expertise in Microsoft products mandatory even when advertising for people with Linux expertise). I was very heartened to encounter a lack of cynicism visiting Japan and attending events like Animelo Summer Live (I wish I was there now for this year's concerts). The artists I saw (often combined singers/voice actors in anime or singers/composers for anime) treated their fans as valued friends, and that extended to their management. Being constructive with your interests is rewarding, be they anime or engineering. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16939 |
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I too appreciate the thoughtful response, and I share most of your views Justin. Look at Ferguson, the hate gay couple still get, or try still being black in areas of Mississippi. The tribal genocides that happen in Africa. While yes it sucks to be socially, key word there is socially, ostracized to a degree it hardly compares to true discrimination. Where you're not allowed to use the same restrooms, doors, jobs, etc as others. Hell, today more than ever I think anime is more socially acceptable. It certainly has a larger fan base for people to incorporate themselves into. I come from the same era as Justin. The 3-4 friends watching bootleg VHS tapes of the handful of shows you could get your hands on. Most colleges, and even high schools now, have anime clubs even. That didn't exist back in my day. God did I just say back in my day? Ugggh. Plus as someone who was picked on, physically, emotionally, and verbally all throughout his childhood I can attest being an anime fan was the least of my social discriminatory worries. The best thing to do if you are picked on socially is just ignore them. If you love anime then screw the haters. Enjoy your anime and let them piss off. Fly your colors proudly as they say. |
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noigeL
Posts: 149 |
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There is some truth to this. Last year I was coming back into Canada from Japan and my luggage was searched. SEARCHED. Everything was taken out, every item was questioned and the woman searching my luggage kept asking if the manga and DVDs I was bringing back were hentai. My computer was also taken to a back room and examined. She was actually fairly friendly but the whole ordeal took at least 45 minutes and I ended up missing the last ferry to get back home and had to stay the night at the airport. For comparison, the year prior I came back to Canada from Amsterdam and while my luggage was searched, the man just shuffled a few things around inside my bag, asked me a few repeating questions about whether I was bringing drugs back with me, and let me go. Took maybe 5 minutes. |
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Cutiebunny
 Posts: 1748 |
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I love the assumption that everyone in government agencies is out to bust anime fans under the belief that everything that comes from Japan is porn.
Because, surely, none of these people could be anime fans themselves. It may surprise some of you to believe it, but there are a lot of anime and comic book fans who work in the government, just as there are anime and comic book fans who are doctors, lawyers, and countless other professions. It's not as if anime fans are destined to spend their life working at McDonalds. Many anime fans are very smart, capable and social people. You know, just like people who have hobbies other than anime and comic books. Yes, some of these cases where customs officials seize items based on the premise that animated material from Japan is porn happen and it's sad that they do. But considering how many people fly to and from Japan to the US, Canada, the UK, etc. daily and are subjected to routine inspections from customs officials in those countries, why aren't you hearing more cases like this? Clearly, a good portion of the people working for the government aren't busting people for bringing in Oreimo doujinshi because they're able to determine that there are no real life victims in drawn media, and not all porn from Japan features children. |
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sunflower
 Posts: 1080 |
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When people in positions of power over you, ie bosses, frown upon their employees having 'childish hobbies' that are expressed in the workplace, when in reviews they suggest other hobbies like volunteer work, when they don't give promotions to people who are in their eyes childish because they enthusiastically discuss comics and cartoons, that's going beyond being a jerk and becomes discrimination. It's something you understand if you're an engineer or work in a law firm or have a job in any conservative private sector business. I've worked for over 30 years now. Some jobs, like being a university research assistant or someone associated with the entertainment industry, allow and encourage differences. But in the private sector in engineering, accounting, etc they want you to march to the company tune or you don't get ahead. At least as a woman I'm better off than when men have those hobbies. I'm considered a harmless kook. People are really negative about adult males in those situations and they're considered creepy and left to do their jobs in their corners. They don't want you to move up and be the face of their company to anyone. |
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Snomaster1
 SubscriberPosts: 2813 |
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I've enjoyed anime for a long time. But,when I read that someone on "Answerman" said that Asian culture is more optimistic than Western culture. I've watched a lot of anime and a good many of them are very dark. I tend to like more lighthearted fare although I have no problems watching darker stuff.
I don't know where this guy got that idea but he hasn't watched a lot of anime or a lot of stuff from Asia in general. |
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silentjay
Posts: 304 |
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Seriously? I'm 43. I've worked in academia, sales, and IT. I've been a manager, mail clerk, and pretty much everything in between in both the public and private sectors. I've even worked briefly for a circus. Most of my friends are lawyers, engineers, sales people, and educators. Some work for the government, and some run their own business, but most work for major corporations. We're mostly all big nerds, and we've never been discriminated by employers because of it. I even know people who are the most obnoxious fan types (and complete asshats) who've been able to keep high profile positions at Fortune 500 corporations. So, really, the only time anybody's even going to care what your hobbies are, let alone know about them, is if it's become a problem and is disruptive to the workplace. |
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Trypticon
 Posts: 80 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada |
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I just want to say a few words about cynicism; internalising it and making it an identity, is just as unhealthy as internalizing a fandom and making that an identity. Toxic attitudes come in all forms and on all sides of the spectrum. In the context of the anime community when you get these two types of people interacting, it generally makes for an unpleasant environment that projects hostility and animosity.
I’m going to be honest, there are times, past and present, where I’m absolutely appalled at some of what is said in the general anime community, not just about anime, but topics other than and/or related to anime. I think the community overall would be more pleasant if everyone, and I mean everyone, from casual and hard core fans to critics and connoisseurs spend some time self-reflecting and practicing self-awareness. This is something I have spent a great deal of time with myself and I admit I’m a little cynical about the anime community itself with a lot of the infighting, people’s one-sided perspectives and lack of critical/analytical/logical thought and some of the worst, most blatant double standards and transparent biases. I will admit here and now, there has been the rare occasion on message boards where a topic that’s very personal to me I was participating in got heated and I allowed my emotions got the better of me and I lost my temper said some mean things.The point is, because I have been able to go back to these posts, reflect on what I’ve said, I’m able to admit that I have had my moments where I’ve acted like a jerk, therefore, I can actually learn from it, improve and move on.
Your entire post, as well as this Answerman has been an interesting read, but I want to focus particularly on this bit of text you have. I know there is the odd occasion where ridicule befalls a person who enjoys anime from some random slimy, festering dink, but for the most part, people outside of the anime community genuinely don’t care if someone likes anime as you said in one of your other Answerman write ups. What I do find more often is the infighting and flame baiting that goes on within the community; people getting angry because someone says something bad about one of their favorite shows. Elitism; people thinking their opinions are absolute and anyone who fails to agree to them have poor taste or are just dumb. What I find ironic is how a given fan/critic will rip a series to shreds with impunity in the worst way possible, then, when challenged on it, they accuse that person of internalizing their fandom, all the while getting right on the defensive and taking personal offence when someone has something critical to say about their favorite shows; as if what this person favors is an untouchable holy grail immune to criticism. Posturing and internalization; people thinking that watching hyper violent/sexual shows makes them more mature the same way people like to believe that liking Studio Ghibli Movies, shows like The Tatami Galaxy, Princess Jellyfish or any other “artsy” series not only makes them more mature and intelligent, but morally superior as well. As for me, I’ve always subscribed to the school of thought that a piece of art/entertainment is only as mature and intelligent as the person partaking in it at a given time. In a word, it’s more about what the individual gets from the art/entertainment they engage with and their perception and interpretation of it. Then there are the generalizations that get made about others who like certain shows whether it’s assigning terms like pretentious, arrogant, pompous, or grandiose to those who favor series like Neon Genesis or Puella Magi Madoka Magica or labelling those who favor series such as Queen’s Blade and Samurai Girls as creepy, irrelevant, silly or just having bad taste, or even worse, implicit shaming language; which I have heard more than enough of. Either way, it’s all demoralizing and tends to make the community less enjoyable. Of course there is the conflicts that occur with other fan communities; be it anime, Star Trek, or Ponies or Dr. Who or whatever your source of enjoyment, it almost feels like rival gangs to a certain point. To make things more complicated, there’s overlap; a lot of people who enjoy anime are also Trek fans, or Bronies; this is natural because honestly; who wants to spend time with one type of art/entertainment? The issue is that it results in some animosity, for example, the odd Brony insulting and generalizing anime fans while some anime fans dump all over American Animation. This gives us two out comes; one being the “you insulted my favorite show/medium, now I attack yours,” mentality. Number two is the course of action that involves throwing the other community under the bus because; “Well, the fandom I’m involved with isn’t as bad as these people at least.” I went on a little longer than I hoped to, but, after observing and participating in the anime community for a few years, I’ve seen plenty of this negative behavior, and a lot more exhibited; as well as meeting some really good people that I have had, and still continue to have some good long and engaging discussions with. I still enjoy anime as I do music and movies, after all; why let a few undesirables and poor attitudes inhibit me from watching and enjoying these mediums? |
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Juno016
 Posts: 2394 |
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Discrimination topic. I'm going to have to agree that Justin shook the topic off a bit too lightly. No, otaku aren't usually visible and they do not (and did not) face slavery or a lot of the troubles that affected and still affect black people, LGBT people, Asian people, etc.
But we're talking about more than just internet discrimination, where you see jerks everywhere. We're talking about judgement from people one is forced to associate with, whether it be because of work, family, location, or whatever, and the effect it has on the individual or group. Not all jobs discriminate against people for their personal hobbies. Some employers will even hire based on that fact! But the same can be said for minority groups in general. No, we're not bound by our hobbies. We can even mask them easily, and in some cases, we really shouldn't bring our hobbies up because they do disturb the workings of the job. But the moment other people know, the chance for discrimination happens. My boss is a manager of a great retail chain. He made it there because of his merits and the people who promoted him and hired him didn't care that he was a comic book fan and played Pokemon or whatever. But he was fired from a previous job simply because the woman above him thought he was creepy for liking comics and children's games, so she made excuses to get him in trouble and said some really nasty things. He was able to get out and find a place for himself, which is awesome, and I'm glad to have him as a boss... but then I have a friend who lies to his mother about where he is in order to attend our anime club at our local library. She thinks all anime is either for children or it's erotic. He's 22 and perfectly able to try and live on his own, but as it is, he cannot find a way to financially support himself because his mother cannot afford to support him if he moves out, and he's responsible for part of their debt. In other words, he's stuck in a position where he cannot simply find a better place (for now). And his hobbies aren't visible, but he most certainly feels discriminated against for them. And echoing something another person said, back in 2008, I hit customs in Japan when returning to America and the security officers there shifted through my stuff and were excited that I was into Japanese things. They saw that I had Chobits and a SFW School Days manga adaption, among other things that have borderline sexualization to them (artistic merit or not), but they just put everything in my bad neatly back together and sent me on my way. The tag to show that I had gone through a security check already, however, must've fallen off because I was again checked again upon arriving in America. They pulled out all my stuff, threw out some toy gifts because they apparently could've been dangerous, and didn't even flinch upon shifting through the pages of some of those manga and artbooks before throwing them into the bin. They threw out three volumes of Chobits, the second School Days manga, as well as a Tanemura Arina artbook, a Cardcaptor Sakura artbook, a CLAMP guidebook to the Tsubasa anime, all three X guidebooks, and all three Sailor Moon ani-manga I had. They gave me looks and asked me questions with obvious suspicion. Yes, I get that they have to be on the lookout for questionable things and don't have the time to argue with travelers, but I felt hurt and mistrusted after that, like they were accusing me of being a predator out of obvious ignorance. I was surprised they even let me go with how they treated me. These go beyond my days of middle/high school where I was bullied mentally and physically for my hobbies and my "weak" demeanor. They go beyond the internet, where I am perfectly able to walk away from ignorant jerks. I can usually avoid these things by not wearing anything or saying anything that calls attention to my hobbies and passion. But are these not the same kind of things that some minority groups, such as LGBT people, go through? They're not visible, either. I may be more fortunate than them in some ways, but that doesn't change the fact that me and my boss were discriminated against. Or that other people who went through instances they couldn't walk away from were discriminated against. These are only a portion of examples I could name (and have named in other threads) from personal experience. So Justin's thoughts and solutions are fine for minor circumstances where one CAN walk away from the situation. But I can't help but feel like he only nicked the surface of the topic. Maybe it's just not something Justin, specifically, can talk about (lack of experience, difference in judgment, etc.), but I do think it's a topic worth discussing past the point where he ended it. The issue is far more complicated than a case of jerks being jerks, or even general school-kid bullying, and though I agree that there are certainly minority groups who cannot necessarily control how they look or what they do or how they feel who have it FAAAAAAAAR worse, I do not think that means we should ignore talking about smaller-scale discrimination. |
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gravediggernalk
Space Cowboy Posts: 246 Location: Alabama |
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If I had to guess which company had only two people, I'd say Discotek, since I'm sure it's been noted before that the reason for the few errors that end up slipping by the company is due to just that, there are only two people working there.
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Gasero
 Posts: 939 Location: USA |
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I think there is definitely a case to be made that discrimination against people who enjoy anime is more than just people being jerks. Laws and policies are sometimes directed at anime and manga, but I think those laws seem targeted because animated and illustrated material is sometimes on the border-line of law. For example, bans on blatant child pornography may have caused people to flock to hentai which can be ambiguous child pornography.
As a fan of anime and manga I defend the things that I enjoy. The same people who may say that cartoons are "childish" may be the ones watching shows like "Teen Mom" and whatever other junk can be found on TV. Perhaps if more "otaku" sought public office or made public statements there would be more public officials who can make the case that watching anime doesn't automatically mean you are deviant. It is difficult to fight public perception if you are hiding. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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I've been to Japan a whole lot and not once has American customs even opened my luggage. They check my ID and my passport and wave me through. This story seems wildly implausible to me. |
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relentlessflame
Posts: 188 |
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Actually, the fact that you've been a whole lot probably works in your favour given that it's become a pattern. Plus, you're a U.S. citizen and the trip is related to your job (at least now anyway). The odds of you being inspected are probably pretty low. I don't know if this person's story is true or not, but it seems like it could be true, particular if either a) this was an atypical visit, b) the person wasn't a U.S. citizen, c) the goods weren't properly declared, or d) they actually found something more damning than what was listed and the rest go thrown out with the bath water. There have definitely been cases where people have had regular manga and similar items confiscated at the border by clueless customs inspectors, so at least it wouldn't surprise me, but I do agree there seems like there might be a bit more to the story here. |
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