Forum - View topicChicks on Anime [2008-09-09]
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larinon
 Posts: 992 Location: Midland, TX |
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In some cases I think you could say that the characters are being objectified, but I don't think that is universal. Have you ever met someone or had a friend that you really just wanted to help out because they sometimes seem a little helpless or have trouble in some situations? Is showing kindness objectifying them? As an aside, would Yomiko Readman be considered a moe character? Particularly in R.O.D. TV? I think the most common type of moe character we see is the little sister character. First, I like to think that most people don't have an innate desire to commit incest. Beyond that though, I think the main reason is that it fulfills a fantasy. By fantasy, I mean the desire to have someone look up to you, respect you, need you, and depend on you. Sort of like having a child but without all the expensive medical bills and unexpected weight gain. So it's more of an escape in that sense. (Sister Princess being the ultimate example here) I guess we can say that it objectifies them in a way, but it doesn't seem quite right to say that. Objectifying has such a negative connotation to me. We know that the characterizations of moe types are not accurate, but at the same time we can also see they're not entirely unrealistic. I think this just falls into a gray area. I think your take on the puppies growing into dogs that get neglected or forgotten is a bit of an over-generalization. Probably I'm a little biased on this issue since our dogs were adorable for their entire lives. I guess I'm just friends with a lot of animal people so I may not see the entire picture here. |
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Nayoko-Kihara
 Posts: 13 Location: Earth |
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I was bothered by a lot of things stated, but most have been covered quite thoroughly already by others, so I'll just poke at one thing. It isn't big, and is probably just me being nit picky, but I am curious.
When you all started talking about buying body pillows of your favorite characters from an anime, or a manga, it all seemed like you'd take it to automatically be something sexual, or some sort of desire to sleep with and/or be with that certain character. I understand that might be what happens a majority of the time, but nobody even mentioned another possibility and it made it seem as if these are the ONLY reasons you would ever buy a body pillow, and actually use it. Can't I just get the pillow because it has my favorite character on it? Or because it's large, and comfortable? The character could just be an after thought. - The same with figures and doujinshi when they were mentioned. Can't I just get a figure of my favorite character, BECAUSE it's my favorite character? It's a neat trinket to have, and to show off. But the only side mentioned was one of a sexual nature, coming off as: "If you have body pillows and figures, you must be some sort of closet pervert." - I'm probably just being picky. And yes, I might be taking something the wrong way, but this is how it came off to me. Other than this, and a few other things I had problems with, this was an enjoyable issue of Chicks on Anime, but not my favorite. I enjoyed previous talks more, and I'll be looking foward to the next one. |
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Forlorn Hope
 Posts: 122 Location: Utah, USA |
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For the longest time, it mystified me as to why men felt 'moe' over these cute little girls. But now I'm beginning to understand, I think Chagum from Guardian of the Sacred Spirit and Kisa of Fruits Basket are moe but the doe eyed girls you see in most Key productions not so much. How am I supposed to gush over or feel protective of something that looks and acts so alien. My younger siblings don't act that fragile or innocent. 0_0;
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gatotsu911
Posts: 457 Location: US of East Coast |
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Honestly, I personally take up an even harsher position towards moe than was presented in this article. In regards to the whole moe thing, I just fail to see how it is NOT to be taken as sexual. I'm almost always suspicious of cutesy, moe anime/manga created by men. I mean, how are you gonna take this sort of strong feeling that a man has for a girl and NOT cast it in a sexual context. Then again, I'm into all sorts of ideas of Freudian sexuality, so I read sexual undertones into a LOT of things. Still...
In Air or Kanon, for example, I find it hard to see these depictions as not sexual, simply because of the source material. It might not be suspect if you didn't take the source material into consideration, but it's there and you have to. No matter the relationship dynamics portrayed in these shows, you have to remember that they DID originally start out with sexual intent, and when you consider that then a lot of other things are called into question. So, in that regard... I'd say, perhaps, that Azumanga Daioh and Lucky Star are not, at least in and of themselves, offensive, because they were not at any point created with sexual intentions and give no indication that they are meant to be taken as such. So they're pretty harmless. But a lot of moe stuff quickly gets a lot less wholesome, or at least more obvious in its intent. |
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hentai4me
 Posts: 1313 Location: England. Robin is so Cute! |
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I, in turn, find it quite offensive that you feel that something cutesy and aimed at men MUST be sexual.
Why? because all men think about nothing but sex? Maybe it is my Paternal instinct kicking in? Oh...no chance of that, that would be just plain weird... Serious question, how old are you and what kind of life experiences do you have? Are you some teen with big ideas or are you an older person with actual life experience? Do you perhaps have a child or a dependant? When I look at pictures of my daughter and my heart goes all aflutter am I REALLY thinking about how much I want to bang her? When I pet my cat and feel fuzzy is it some repressed sexual desire? Why is it when a woman goes all gooey eyed over those kittens it is just her expressing her maternal instincts but I as a guy doing the same...well that MUST be me expressing a repressed desire to molest young children or have women be my subservient slaves...I mean, what else COULD it be... |
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burzmali
Posts: 143 |
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Honestly, I prefer to help people help themselves. I think the difference is that in the case of a moe character, one helps them by shielding them from the problem. The show Le Portrait de Petit Cossette exemplifies this as the main character volunteers to basically take a beating for the moe girl.
I wouldn't personally consider her one. Being clueless and clumsy might be two signs of a moe character, but she can survive on her own and makes important decisions on her own, which are not really traits of a moe.
I'm stuck wondering about how many people are like the "villian" from Le Portrait de Petit Cossette, who couldn't tolerant Cossette growing older. Japan already has a "problem" with 25+ year old women acting like 14-year old school girls to snag a husband, I hate to see those poor women have to start acting like brain dead 8-year olds. |
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hentai4me
Posts: 1313 Location: England. Robin is so Cute! |
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Now, maybe I'm stuck in my own world but since when did moe = utterly inept?
Moe is when a character evokes a feeling of parental/similar love from a person. You feel happy when they succeed, you want to help them succeed and shield them from hurt and harm. All things any normal parent would want. Obviously this is coloured by me having been a parent but is it really an incorrect version of moe? ANYONE can evoke moe. Certain characteristics make it more likely, youth, size, manner, circumstance and so on but they don't mean someone will evoke moe or that someone who isn't all those things can't evoke it. How many of you find Kurau moe? I do (less so Christmas). Why? Because she is struggling to be happy with Christmas, I want to help her, her success makes me happy and seeing her with Christmas makes me warm and fuzzy. Parental feelings. Moe feelings. Moe is an emotional response, it will differ for different people but it is still the same type of feeling. It is not some kind of classification like...say...a fighter with a weight class and fighting style. Do any of you donate to charities? Say...children in Africa, animal welfare, etc etc. These people aren't 'helpless' just that your assistance makes their success much more likely. Do you get letters and progress reports of say that village your sponsoring and smile when you see that your help has led to clean water supplies? Medicine? Education? Does knowing you are making a difference, improving lives and all that make you happy? Real life moe rather than anime? Look no further than those charity adverts. Does helping a children's charity imply objectification and exploitation of these people? Should a similar feeling for something that isn't real imply the same? |
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Rin Tohsaka
Posts: 39 |
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<sarcasm>hey man, didn't you get the memo? men only think with their penis</sarcasm> Last edited by Rin Tohsaka on Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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hentai4me
Posts: 1313 Location: England. Robin is so Cute! |
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Ah yes. 2 heads but only enough blood for one at a time. |
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Goodpenguin
Posts: 457 Location: Hunt Valley, MD |
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No, parental love is similar to parental love. If that's what 'Moe' was it wouldn't have such a large element of erotic/dating sim source material. This isn't to rehash what was talked about in the big 'Moe' thread sometime back, back there's an obvious romantic/sexual/desire component to areas of 'Moe'. That does not preclude other 'Moe' material/archetypes from essentially intertwining with the modern Japanese love of all things cute, in a strictly platonic manner, and becoming just general 'cute/warm-hearted' entertainment. However, it is 'arguing to an abstract' to pose 'Moe' as merely a stand-alone 'cute' construct, devoid of certain romantic/sexual fantasy-view origins/avenues. |
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pachy_boy
Posts: 1327 |
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Rather than read through these posts, I just want to mention that I am really liking this column (assuming the columnists themselves are reading this). I'm a guy, and I find it most interesting to read this alive-feeling dialogue exchange and hear the perspectives on specific topics from Bamboo, Casey and the others. Please do keep up the good work!
My opinion on moe, I really don't think about it too much. Except in cases like Kanon, where all the girls are super-cute. The male protagonist in that show has an inconsistent personality--at some times he acts like a kind big brother and other times where he has a real mean streak. In cases like this it is made obvious it was based on a dating sim game, and his personality changes depending on his environment and, for lack of a better way of putting this, where he has a power over all the girls, even if it was made to come across as innocent. I think this goes according to a lot of what the columnists have been saying. Plenty of guys may like it, but I was turned off after a while. I like the occasional meek, cute girl, but I enjoy watching tough girls just as much--actually even more so. Otherwise, moe just seems to be an art style. I can acknowledge the characters looking cute, but wouldn't think much of anything else about it. If one were to judge Higurashi: When they Cry (I absolutely love this show and can't wait for its rerelease) based on its moe character designs, they'd be in for a real shocking surprise once they sit down and watch it. It's a moe series without it being a moe series, making it a unique paradox, and it's overall just a great series. Last edited by pachy_boy on Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:08 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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fighterholic
Posts: 9193 |
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Like abunai, this is my first time actually reading the column. Like him, I was somewhat impressed. Funny how you have MOE across the screen and then you decide to actually read the column. I think the term was brought out in a sense that explains a lot more about the term and in a way distances itself from lolicon. I think the problem with moe is that people have associated the term with being lolicon, hence people's misunderstanding and ignorance of knowing what the word really implies. Great job.
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Neardawg1979
 Posts: 44 Location: West Chester, PA |
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I think Hentai4me made on interesting point that different life situations can change a person's view on moe. He doesn't see any sexual context in moe because it reminds him of his daughter. I think that in some cases moe can be sexual. A bunny girl with fishnet stockings, sexual. A little girl with a lollipop, not sexual. But I would consider both of them moe.
I'm glad a women brought up this point. It's easy to see how women would think this is the case with men since it's pretty much proven that men are biologically hardwired for sex. But that doesn't mean that we automatically have sexual feelings towards any female that wonders our way. It IS possible to have a platonic relationship with a member of the opposite sex.
With the amount of time spent talking about body or "hug" pillows I almost forgot what the real topic of discussion was. As the owner of such a pillow I feel offended that someone thinks I'm "simulating sleeping with a pre-teen girl". Overall this was a good discussion, but I find it kind of presumptuous for three women to comment on male sexuality and their views on moe without asking one for his opinion. For a topic of this nature it might be better for the chicks to have at least one guy join them to try and field some questions, so we'd have some representation. Even without a male presence I think all sides of the topic were presented fairly, and I look forward to the next issue. |
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hentai4me
Posts: 1313 Location: England. Robin is so Cute! |
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Ok.
But that still doesn't answer why only utterly inept people are moe while others are not (note previous post saying Yumiko can't be moe as she makes her own choices) nor does it mean that moe = sexual. It means that moe has its roots in romance and desire but again those don't have to mean sexual. Even if the moe IS sexually based for some people...how is that bad? These people like a specific type of person it just so happens to be a type of person that modern feminism has taught us all to think ill of. Desire doesn't mean action nor does liking moe mean that if these people were to take action it would be something abhorrent. Nor does it mean that they ONLY like that type of person. They may not like the aggressive go getting person and prefer to docile insecure type but that doesn't mean they wouldn't happily be with the level headed normal person. So...why such negative sentiment for moe? If people were arguing that so much of it is mindless pap then I'd agree but a lot of people don't argue that. Instead they insinuate that those who do like moe may have some kind of desire to molest children or the easily swayed. |
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Goodpenguin
Posts: 457 Location: Hunt Valley, MD |
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Your pulling one thread of 'Practically speaking, what is Moe' into a lot of diverging questions/assumptions here. The biggest issue, and this is what a lot of folks do over certain subjects, is not pull a subject at the seams like taffy, until it becomes completely abstract in principal. Your addressing very individualistic, general thoughts/feelings/values in place of 'Moe' as it exists, as a *commercial product*. 'Moe' isn't something cooked up in intellectual salons of Japan to explore non-traditional emotional expression for the entire populace, it's material produced by commercial business's to be sold to geeky male teens. What motivates those geeky teens? Hormones and emotions, just like every other teen subset. In that context, on the dating-sim/male fantasy/H-game origins, the reasoning for the female behaviors apparent in parts of 'Moe' are clear, and have been discussed in the column/thread. In general, what works in the niche of a subcultre can emerge into the greater culture. In anime, certain 'Moe' conventions/archetypes have spread out to shows with aims/tones far different from the fantasy/dating-sim/H-game material. Questions about our general sexual mores are really neither here nor there when looking at the commercial reasons, and the specific commercial audience, segments of 'Moe' are aimed at. How you or I feel about certain social/cultural expression are valid opinions in a personal sense, but 'What is 'Moe'/Why is it here/Who is it for' is an issue that revolves around commercial business, and what constitutes it's appeal to it's purchasing/watching Japanese male tween/teen audience. |
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