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EP. REVIEW: The Executioner and Her Way of Life


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Covnam



Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 3674
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 9:59 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, it isn't surprising that Menou would end up trying to save Akari, but I was hoping it would be such an easy turn.

I agree that the tension was still good though while watching. I figured Akari was going to be killed and then still manage to reverse things, so I was kept a bit on edge waiting for that final beat while Akari was sitting there.
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Nordhmmer



Joined: 11 Feb 2017
Posts: 1028
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 7:17 am Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
boldulysses wrote:
The most disappointing part of the straightforwardness of this episode is that the moral ambiguity


There is no moral ambiguity. What Menou is doing is evil. I think it is fair to say, even she knows that.

Yeah, she kills those evil ones drunk on their new power, but she also kills the innocent ones that just want to lead a normal life.

Excepting scale, what she is doing is no different than what the SS did in Nazi Germany and what the Sentinels do in the X-Men universe.


....woof and you come to comparing Menou's duty to those carrying out genocide/the Holocaust- all because she kills kids that will 99% of the time go insane with power and chunk large parts of the world around them.
-----

Anime being anime adaptations exposition gets trimmed, but come on now this adaption isn't that lacking- and no I've not read any of the LN (it only came out in 2019, a mere 7 vols so far),just skimmed through a few sites.

Kids have been getting isekai-ed to this world for over a thousand(s) years. Upon arrival,these potatoes gain a "Pure Concept" - This yadda,yadda power will ultimately corrupt and take over it's wielder, a Lost One.

Over the span of time four Lost Ones truly went ham on a global scale- the four major human errors- The Big Bads, a major over-arcing plot line- The other Lost Ones cause/d mayhem and death on a lesser end of the world scale.

And because there would not be a story,there's no one way to just isekai these kids back to Japan. So Executioners were created to do the dirty work of killing these innocent,unstable WMDs to protect the many.
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Nev999



Joined: 05 Aug 2021
Posts: 133
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 9:28 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, it was inevitable Godwin's Law would happen, but I think what always pulling out the 'it's just like the holocaust/genocide/actual racism' perspective when we're talking about fiction where characters are killed for their actually potentially destructive superpowers is that actual racism/prejudice has no basis. Jewish people aren't more dangerous than the average person, no ethnicity is innately more dangerous, no matter what the propaganda said at the time, and historically it's usually those who have LESS resources to cause destruction that get subjugated and killed. Honestly I think our 'fantasy metaphors' for racism/bigotry (a la AOT) and 'omg it's just like that' lower the comprehension of that basic fact in fans sometimes.

That doesn't mean Menou's killing is justified or what she's doing isn't evil. Taking an innocent human life for something they might do (especially something that they can't help) will never not be a bad thing. But it isn't the Holocaust or being a Nazi, and I don't think it's in good taste to bring that up as a comparison.

Also, I haven't read the LNs, but is there any indication Menou wouldn't be under the impression isolation and training has been tried before? If these powers truly go out of control and cause destruction on a national scale (whether that's actually the case), it would be easy for it to be 'we've tried before, but this shit still happened'. If the powers are so far reaching, it doesn't seem like that would be a sure bet to even take them to a desert island or something. That seems to be what Orwell was implying by saying 'this will always happen, it's inevitable'.
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Thesarum



Joined: 25 Mar 2022
Posts: 415
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 6:40 am Reply with quote
Agree that the Holocaust is (and always is) a poor metaphor. It's a trolley problem variant: Is it better to kill one person for something they may do in the future or to risk significantly more lives on the chance they don't?

In our world, where people typically don't have the power to annihilate a continent with a stray thought, the generally accepted answer is "no". But we don't always actually act that way.

A better, but still hugely problematic analogy is perhaps the internment camps run during WW2 by the US and UK (and perhaps other nations) for their own citizens. Or the "precautionary" imprisonment of the mentally ill. I think (hope) humanity has always stayed away from preventative execution (I guess the witch hunts? Though that's a whole other minefield). I can't say with certainty we would if there were people equivalent to walking, armed, WMD where containment is potentially impossible. And that's why we explore these ideas in fiction (usually with some stand in for regular humans, such as mutants or aliens), because it's interesting to ask the question of ourselves. How do you weigh present lives against future ones? What decision do you make when there's no good outcome available? Can something be wrong but necessary? What price is acceptable for security?

I don't really expect this show to go too deep on exploring the ethical implications though. It wants to hint at them and then have some fun with magic fights and flirty girls. Orwell turning into a ridiculous cardboard villain kinda proves that I think. It can't be called a twist, but I'd hoped her motivation and the revelation of it would be a bit more nuanced.
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DRosencraft



Joined: 27 Apr 2010
Posts: 665
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 7:43 am Reply with quote
Thesarum wrote:
Agree that the Holocaust is (and always is) a poor metaphor. It's a trolley problem variant: Is it better to kill one person for something they may do in the future or to risk significantly more lives on the chance they don't...


I agree, but the issue, I find, is that these topics far too often are only thrown about by writers to make their work appear "edgy" and then not addressed in any meaningful way. Yes, to some extent I understand that with how often it happens it shouldn't be surprising. But still, if not handled with the seriousness they are due, these topics shouldn't be handled at all.

Hackney sort-of-effort endeavors to raise an issue, just to abandon any real attempt at discussion or providing an answer is just using a concept to gin up attention for profit motives. It cheapens the seriousness and the importance of the referenced concept or event, and is the reason you end up with stuff like the Holocaust being misused as a reference, or terms like "socialist" and "fascist" thrown about like meaningless insults without any understanding of what the words really mean. A few years back I recall there being a survey that showed that a startlingly high percentage of people of this and the last generation either had no idea what the Holocaust was, or had very poor understanding of its details. One survey, iirc, found that more than half of US kids didn't even know what Auschwitz was.

An anime, therefore, that plays on those same concepts solely to make itself jarring enough to gain morbid attention only to offer platitudes towards the topic, is doing nothing to help that situation or do anything really other than be low-grade entertainment.
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Thesarum



Joined: 25 Mar 2022
Posts: 415
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 8:21 am Reply with quote
DRosencraft wrote:
lots of good stuff


Agree entirely.

Looking at that quote, I realize I should probably have been slightly clearer that I wasn't saying the Holocaust is a trolley problem, the Lost Ones are. And they're not remotely equivalent.

I think it's probably a good thing that anime is trying to engage with issues like systematic prejudice of various forms. But too often those attempts end up being muddled and either say nothing of importance or actively harm understanding. I'm not sure this show is trying to say anything on that topic though. It doesn't position Lost Ones as a discrimated against minority. They're a different ethical question about what "fair and just" looks like, and about people caught in the middle of policitical proxy wars. Whether the show has anything useful to say on that we'll just have to wait and see (or read the LN I guess).
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5846
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 9:54 am Reply with quote
Nordhmmer wrote:
....woof and you come to comparing Menou's duty to those carrying out genocide/the Holocaust- all because she kills kids that will 99% of the time go insane with power and chunk large parts of the world around them.


No, Menou does not kill kids that will 99% of the time go insane. She kills everyone that is summoned. Having the pure concept ability is not what turns you insane. It is using the pure concept ability repeatedly over time. It is a gradual process, but it does degrade you after each use. People do know what it does to you. If you don't use it or use it sparingly, you are not going to go insane. Some people don't want to die, they don't want to go insane, and they have plenty of public examples of what happens when you do go insane. They just want to have a normal life.

Yes the scale of things is different, but whether it is our world or Menou's world if you are committing genocide as part of your duty there is no excuse. And that is exactly what Menou is doing. She is exterminating a certain class of people. If you don't like the Holocaust example, well, the Sentinels vs the mutants should be the perfect analogy. They are not going after bad and evil mutants, they are killing all mutants.

Menou and Momo are the German SS soldiers doing their duty and they also, are the Sentinel's technicians and controllers during their duty.

The victims are summoned (kidnapped) to Menou's world with no hope of every going home, and then are given an automatic death sentence. Just because of the ability they aquired through no fault of their own. They are not judged because of their actions, but rather on what they could do, not what they will do.

What would you do, if you were one of the summoned ones. The ones that summoned you will want you to use your powers for their own ends and probably don't care you will go insane eventually, they will probably kill you anyway if you start looking unstable. If you get free from them, you can look forward to being hunted and killed for the rest of your short life, because they will find you. How would you feel, what will you do........

spoiler[Akari already made her choice, quite a magnamious one at that.]
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nobahn
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 5120
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2022 7:16 am Reply with quote
First of all, I would like to say that I did not clue into the Orwell/Faust foreshadowing. In While watching episode #5 I was, in the back of my mind, creating very idle fan fiction in which Orwell sorta lives up to her namesake and then holy s---! Shocked So I rated episode #5 at 5 out of 5. (Damn, that's practically a pun!)

Nev999 wrote:
thadec wrote:
Proposing that James Beckett not be allowed to review any isekai titles in the future, or really shonen shows in general. It seems that Beckett has a real disdain towards the target audience - or at least what that audience likes and why - and will not be objective.
And I propose that he should be allowed to review whatever he wants, which I imagine will continue to happen.
I choose to interpret thadec's words humorously -- even if that was never the intent! Laughing

bassgs435 wrote:
DRosencraft wrote:
Hence, what I led off with - it's fine if they're expecting this is going to get the time to fully develop the entire story as an anime. But we generally know that's a rarity, hence why you don't normally attempt 1:1 adaptations of source material. This all would set up well as a written story with all the mystery elements, etc, knowing that the publication horizon is so far out for a written story. But when you have an anime that you're likely only getting 12 or 13 episodes to tell your story, 24 if you're lucky, more if you're really lucky. If the anime ultimately goes that long, it's fine. At the moment, it's setting up to be a poor decision by the anime team.
It's fun to see someone complain about a JC Staff show being too slow and being too faithful to the source LNs when an extremely common complaint against JC Staff LN adaptations is that they rush things and leave out stuff from the LNs (one of the most infamous examples being Magical Index. But I've also seen the complaint against better adaptations like DanMachi), JC Staff takes their time for once and it's now also bad. There's no right anwer, it seems
When it comes to anime that has production handled by J.C. Staff I rightly or wrongly say that on the pro side the main animation was done by J.C. Staff and on the con side the main animation was done by J.C. Staff. Six on one hand and half a dozen on the other hand.
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Covnam



Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 3674
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2022 10:29 pm Reply with quote
@TarsTarkas Please stop trying to compare the murder of some summoned people to an actual genocide, it's not even close
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Nev999



Joined: 05 Aug 2021
Posts: 133
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2022 10:40 pm Reply with quote
Yes, you have a perfectly fine comparison with the X-Men thing, so you don't have to pull out Nazis. The comparison is tasteless and not a good one.
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zensunni



Joined: 05 Mar 2010
Posts: 1294
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2022 12:25 pm Reply with quote
The thing that really struck me in Episode 5 was just how HUGE of a slap in the face the whole farce of the "fake killing machine" was to Menou. Orwell not only lied to Menou about having a machine that would "kill any otherworlder", thus luring her to bring Akari to the capital, but she also gave her a mission to investigate a crime SHE was committing, knowing that she would assign the actual investigation to her trusty assistant, conveniently separating the two of them, since she considers them a threat when they are together. (I expect they are a formidable fighting team.)

But the biggest slap on the face was the fact that the true purpose of the room was not killing but "Blanching" the otherworlder, removing their personality and making their Pure Concept controlable. How is she doing this? Using the Pure Concept that she obviously farmed in a similar manner from the very same Lost Soul who destroyed Menou's entire village and left her as an empty, emotionless husk as a child. Clearly the "church bell" attack that she used didn't kill that Lost Soul, but was designed to incapacitate her so Orwell could take her back to her Cathedral and, somehow, use her own Pure Concept to wipe out her brain and turn her into a tool.

That's gotta sting! Even for someone as emotionally challenged as Menou.
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Penrhos



Joined: 09 Jun 2021
Posts: 168
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2022 2:55 pm Reply with quote
Episode 5 had a decent plot twist (which was a surprise) - Orwell etc got dealt with and the whole Menou & Akari thing is turning into an Isekai Higurashi....

Looks like my wish for repeated death, despair and pain is going to become true - excellent.
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Thesarum



Joined: 25 Mar 2022
Posts: 415
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2022 5:37 pm Reply with quote
I know it's a standard expositional device... but villains who won't stop bragging about how much of a psychopath they are, and how everything was their doing, are intensely irritating.

Other than that, I felt this episode worked quite well. Perhaps this arc wraps up a little too nearly. But the insight into how Akari is using her power was good, and while Menou has pieced some of it together, the gap between what she thinks she knows and what Akari knows (or sorta knows) sets up some fun future tension.
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Nev999



Joined: 05 Aug 2021
Posts: 133
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2022 9:13 pm Reply with quote
[Ep 6 discussion]
THERE we go. That's the kind of screwed up weird romance stuff I love. Akari is a bit of a freak, I can definitely get behind that. Real Homura vibes, hopefully no Rebellion to come.

What a waste of a villain Orwell was, but at least this episode revealed some actual interesting things for the show. Even if Menou being like 'welp guess I'll just continue on my merry way despite this revelation someone from the church I serve manufactured my biggest trauma' feels a little weird.

Also, I continue to enjoy Momo and Ashuna's dynamic.The way Ashuna rolls with Momo's 'blow up everything' attitude is great. I'm glad for one yandere lesbian at least has an option for a decent relationship. If the story never goes there, it's a mistake.
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NG_Chloe



Joined: 29 Jul 2021
Posts: 140
PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2022 7:51 am Reply with quote
Yttrbio wrote:
Florete wrote:
But this doesn't make any sense. Akari isn't getting killed the way everyone else is because she literally can't be (Menou tried, after all). Menou's whole purpose since meeting her is to get her killed, just like the rest. Death does not suddenly "matter" any more with her, it's just taking extra work. Are you criticizing the story for what you think it will do, rather than what it actually has done?
Well, yes, for something I think the show is going to do. If it turns out that Menou does, in fact, kill Akari without any kind of internal consequence, or the whole show ends up being about the technical challenge of killing her rather than any kind of emotional or personal struggle on Menou's part, none of my criticism is applicable. But given that she was introduced as a destined partner, and in contrast to the guy Menou did kill, I'm pretty confident about my assumptions about where the show is going, and at the very least, the show wants us to assume it's going that way, in order to shock us later.

The criticism is what you quoted about murder only mattering (to the show's framing, not to Menou) when it's an attractive female character (which the story's plot was written to support, by extending the duration of their relationship), combined with the main character being the murderer in question. Yes, that's a thing on the screen, and yes, it's a development I don't like.


I'd like to point out that without there being an unkillable person forcing menou to confront her actions(internally) there's basically no story. I understand criticizing an author for their choices, but this is a case where rather than criticizing how the story is told, you come off as though your just criticizing what story is being told. So this kinda story might just not be for you.
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