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ANNCast - Diabolical Ruh-minations


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walw6pK4Alo



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 9322
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:07 am Reply with quote
I enjoy Oshii films very much, he has an interesting way of setting up his anime that I dig, and he's one of the few privileged people who can do stuff like that with an actual budget. I too have only seen Patlabor 2 recently, but I think it deserves a re-watch so that I can observe more and pick up a lot of what I may have missed at first. The film is absolutely packed with dialog and expository writing that might put off your typical anime fan, more-so than the Ghost in the Shell franchise because it deals with more esoteric subjects. Though of his films, I find one of the most enjoyable to watch and rewatch is Urusei Yatsura Movie 2: Beautiful Dreamer. Deals with a pretty common subject, but the way in which it's constructed, makes use of interesting visuals, and the characters it deals with makes it an immense film.

Just like with Cagliostro, I like when familiar characters are taken out of their typical element and put into something a bit more nuanced. The Patlabor movies, more or less, are the exact same way. The TV series and good deal of the OVAs are just light-humored fun, but then the movies completely take the story in a serious direction. Talking about Miyazaki, I've seen pretty much most of his films, if not all, and I agree about Spirited Away. It was brilliant in technical aspects, but I just couldn't get too much into the story or the characters, and it really felt like a lot of things just came out of left field.

Also, as I've said in other Patlabor/Oshii threads, get those movies on BluRay. The TV and OVAs will be coming on BluRay soon as well.

To Ruh, I've had your book checked out from my school's library for about a year and a half now. I've read bits and pieces, but I've really waited to watch more Oshii before really delving into it. I think I read more of the Cinema of Oshii, so maybe I'll have to compare and contrast the two. I think now's about the time. I look forward to your column.
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tuxedocat



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 2183
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:35 am Reply with quote
My question about a site like Crunchyroll: Why aren't they sticking ads on the social networking pages of their users and then sharing the profits with their corporate partners?

That's how Facebook makes money. It doesn't make sense that Crunchyroll has a social networking aspect to their site and doesn't seem to be exploiting it in any profitable way. Same with Hulu. I navigate to a profile page in both cases and never see any ads.

I still think that streaming media is a viable business. Though I still think it is in its experimental stages. Crunchyroll has Fairy Tail for subscribers only. Kadokawa has implemented expiration dates for their streaming titles. Maybe one of these models will work, but only if advertisers are willing to buy ads, or people are willing to buy a paid subscription. So far ad agencies don't seem all that interested in paying for ads on the streams. I see a lot of PSA's, which don't generate income.

The social networking pages are where advertisers are paying top $$ for ads. Why aren't the streaming sites exploiting this business model?
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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:42 am Reply with quote
The phrase: Ghost in the Shell plus Bourne Identity makes my head explode.

Regarding comedies about working in crappy minimum wage jobs. I would really like to see more of those but not the usual Clerks-esque ones. If you ask me, the real potential there is in black comedy. I'd like to see that.

Yeah, if there's one guy out there who definitely deserves deeper examination it's Oshii.

Yeah, I've never really had any interest in seeing his live action stuff.

I need to watch Innocence again. I saw the Manga UK dub and didn't like the movie. I bought the Bandai re-release but haven't actually had a chance to watch it again.

Doesn't Ghost in the Shell: SAC count as Sci-Fi? It was 04-05 and I thought I remember Zac mentioning he's a fan of it. I...think that was the most recent Sci-Fi (non-mecha) show I watched.
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The Count



Joined: 22 Dec 2008
Posts: 303
Location: Milwaukee,WI
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:33 am Reply with quote
Well thanks Justin for that worrying news about my favorite anime studio MADHOUSE. Hopefully it's not that bad or they'll be able to bounce back because I just can't imagine the anime scene without them.

Speaking of which I can't wait for Yojō-Han Shinwa Taikei to air, and to see what the reviewers here think of it. Masaaki Yuasa the director of this show has joined Satoshi Kon and Mamoru Hosoda as one of my favorite directors.

As far as revenue from streaming goes, I wish I could bring myself to support this model but I have to many issues with streaming. I'm a big supporter of the R1 disc market but do to the lower quality, buffering and limited availability of some episodes for shows I'd rather download it than stream it. If the major anime studio's would use a model like Tazmo does I would gladly pay a subscription in order to support these guys. The only people that seem to be doing this is Funi, but with them you know it will be released dubbed in the future. Tazmo is reportedly making out like a bandit for really not doing a damn thing. I just wish the anime studio's find a way to stop him and taking in the profits he and other like him are making, but for me streaming is not the way at least not the way it works now.


Last edited by The Count on Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:25 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Cheesecracker



Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Posts: 240
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:37 am Reply with quote
I was surprised to here such favor towards Heroman. I thought it was dopey, kinda tepid. Granted it may develop beyond it's first impression.

The creation formula made me think of the Simpsons' "Flaming Moe" episode, where 'fire made it good'. In this case it was lightning.

(BTW, Moe, pronounced 'mo' not 'mo-ay', it's a name...he's a character on the Simpson's...it's an American 'anime'...nevermind)
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3085
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:22 am Reply with quote
keikanki wrote:
RE: The future of feature anime and Justin's comment that "people are still going to the movies in Japan":

This comment really stuck with me, because it seems to buck a bigger trend that I thought was having a strong impact on the entertainment industry: I thought that with the expansion of HDTV, BD, home theater 3D and like technologies the cinema industry was slowly but surely going the way of commercial radio? Is Japan somehow in exception to the trend? Is anime the exception? Or am I taking too strong a connotation away from a one positive comment?

Have you seen the box office of movies lately? Trust me, James Cameron is not going to be working at the local McDonalds anytime soon.

Simply put people want to see the latest movie, and they want to see it now. That hasn't changed nor will that change anytime soon.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15326
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:18 am Reply with quote
I'm wondering why, if the studios seem to be investing in anime movies, they don't go all the way and ride the 3-d gravy train before it becomes a fad?
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Keonyn
Subscriber



Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 5567
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:25 am Reply with quote
Honestly, I think it already is a fad. Everywhere you look there's 3D this and 3D that, and most of it is just poorly done attempts to cash in. The reviews and consensus on the net for 3D is also far more skeptical and critical of it now than it was. It really seems like the gravy train has already shut down, and people are tired of being fooled by the abundance of mediocre 3D and aren't quite so willing to shell out the extra cash for it now.
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Anime World Order



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 389
Location: Florida
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:45 am Reply with quote
GATSU wrote:
Daryl Surat had a problem with Millennium Actress, and I hated Tokyo Godfathers, and was half-and-half with Paranoia Agent, so you're not entirely alone.


Excuse me, but what the [EXPLETIVE DELETED] are you talking about? Millennium Actress is my favorite Satoshi Kon movie and I LOVE Paranoia Agent. And I said precisely as much on the ANNCast itself. You've presumably got me confused with Gerald, which seems to happen entirely too often due to our names sounding similar.

While I worry about the Madhouse situation considering that they're the most consistently good and versatile anime studio there is today, I'm glad that more people will be reading Brian Ruh's stuff soon. I've owned a copy of Stray Dog for years and like it so much I steal its ideas and pretend I came up with them myself! Remember: it's not "plagiarism" when you do it from multiple sources at once. It's "research"!
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PetrifiedJello



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 3782
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:58 am Reply with quote
hissatsu01 wrote:
Ostensibly it's done by BONES, but the listing of studios under in-between animation reveals a lot of big names:

Remaining studios have been doing this type of work for years, and it's how they've survived against the competition which put itself out of business. People tend to have a strange look on their face when I tell them Kyoto Animation's been around since the early 90s.

Many are now being propped up to their status simply because the work's being shared. It has to be. No one studio can sustain itself in the current anime industry.

I'm not sure if Justin read my words wrong, but I got the impression he's trying to tell me studios still create their own works under their own funding. I've a tremendously difficult time believing this when so much contradicts this, especially news regarding artist salaries.

While I do understand production committees (anime funding group) exist, it has been my understanding these are formed long before a single line of art is even drawn, thus removing studios from recouping royalties of their own works. I say this only because the salary situation doesn't seem to have improved, so it's a good assumption studios are indeed hired, not IP owners (which would allow them to share royalties).

Much of today's anime is a derivative of another medium (vg, manga, short story, or even a movie) and that medium has to be somewhat successful before it's even considered. Again, just my observation based on what I see, rather than what I (or anyone) can really know.

If a studio has investments in the companies who form the production committees, that's probably the only way they can receive a "return" outside of a salary. Thus, no information supports this in the positive.

Last night, I tried digging up an ANN news story which featured an interview with a director (or CEO, can't remember) who mentioned their (artists) salaries are based on the next project coming in.

In fact, most news of salaries seems to carry this type of message. No offense to Justin at all, but my take on this is that studios don't have enough revenue lying around to properly pay the artists what they deserve.

If the anime industry thinks it has it bad now, just wait until China enters the picture more than it already has.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23813
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:59 am Reply with quote
I really hope the Brian Ruh ANN column actually does come into existence (sounds like it is still tentative). I'd definitely be interested in something that is academically slanted.

I need somebody to provide a cogent, intellectual justification for my love of fanservice. Laughing
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_V_



Joined: 13 Apr 2009
Posts: 619
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:28 am Reply with quote
I sympathize that only a handful of people are writing about anime, and Susan Napier has been a real trailblazer in that...

...but there are certain specific series that she doesn't really understand. I don't blame her for that, there's SO LITTLE stuff that you need to be a generalist to start with...

...but Susan Napier doesn't know the first thing about Evangelion.

have you *read* what she's said about it? Her "When the Machine Stops" article was one of the worst things I've ever seen...not to mention she devoted *literally one sentence* to End of Evangelion to dismiss it as "just revenge on fans"

She ended up concluding that the series had a pro-existentialist message....that "the message is that Shinji can dream up any reality he wants".........when that was really the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the show was about.

And the big problem I run into is the casual fans who say, "well I read it in 'From Akira to Howl's Moving Castle' so it must be true"

*not necessarily*
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jsevakis
Former ANN Editor in Chief


Joined: 28 Jul 2003
Posts: 1684
Location: Los Angeles, CA
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:48 am Reply with quote
PetrifiedJello wrote:
I'm not sure if Justin read my words wrong, but I got the impression he's trying to tell me studios still create their own works under their own funding. I've a tremendously difficult time believing this when so much contradicts this, especially news regarding artist salaries.


Well, look at it this way: You (or your parent company) have some money stashed away, but it's looking like lean times ahead and you don't have many clients for your little art studio. You really don't want to lay anyone off. Do you give everyone a raise, or do you come up with new projects to keep everyone employed and hopefully bring in more money?

Quote:
While I do understand production committees (anime funding group) exist, it has been my understanding these are formed long before a single line of art is even drawn, thus removing studios from recouping royalties of their own works. I say this only because the salary situation doesn't seem to have improved, so it's a good assumption studios are indeed hired, not IP owners (which would allow them to share royalties).


Sometimes the animation studios are part of that committee, but usually only if the project is an original work (as opposed to being based on a manga or light novel). And even then, they're seldom the sole source of funding -- their pockets aren't THAT deep, they've gotten outside help by bringing a distributor or other potential investors onboard. It's a little like starting a business each time. Other times, the anime studio handles other aspects of the business such as merchandising. Pierrot and Toei both do this, and it's most certainly helped them keep the lights on.

Remember, even if no frame has been drawn, pre-production is a long, long process that the main animation studio is pretty much solely responsible for (though other parts of the committee do get a say). So even if it's work-for-hire, the animation studio would still be involved from day two, if not day one.

Quote:
In fact, most news of salaries seems to carry this type of message. No offense to Justin at all, but my take on this is that studios don't have enough revenue lying around to properly pay the artists what they deserve.


Nope, budgets for these projects are notoriously tight. The crap wages the animators get are the result of these tight budgets, the surplus of animators (supply vs demand), and years of "well, that's how it's done" thinking. It's one of the problems with work for hire, because when there's not as much work, prices go down across the board, even over years, despite inflation. Over here, it's happened with anime dubs, it's happened with subtitling, it's happened with DVD authoring. Advances in technology can mean you also spend less time doing the work, but that time savings has its limits.

Quote:
If the anime industry thinks it has it bad now, just wait until China enters the picture more than it already has.


I've stopped worrying so much about the other Asian countries aping Japan. They have their own artistic and filmic styles, and so far almost nobody's done that great a job of bridging the two. But even when they do, the result will feel different, simply by virtue of that country's own artistic tradition, just like how The Boondocks and Avatar: The Last Airbender feel different even though they're so close to anime in style.
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JacobC
ANN Contributor


Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 3728
Location: SoCal
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:13 am Reply with quote
_V_ wrote:

...but Susan Napier doesn't know the first thing about Evangelion.

have you *read* what she's said about it? Her "When the Machine Stops" article was one of the worst things I've ever seen...not to mention she devoted *literally one sentence* to End of Evangelion to dismiss it as "just revenge on fans"

She ended up concluding that the series had a pro-existentialist message....that "the message is that Shinji can dream up any reality he wants".........when that was really the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the show was about.


Wellllll, like any analytical film scholar I had to take what she wrote with a grain of salt. I'm afraid I don't remember enough about that specific article to say how much she may have had things right or wrong. Mostly what I remember about her Evangelion writings was the description of the Freudian elements, the psychological analysis rather than the philosophical. On those points, I really agreed with what she had to say. As for the other, well, Evangelion is an existentialist work, but that's a BIIIIIG broad category so she still may have had it wrong. It's pomo existentialism, which kind of considers itself "higher" than humanistic branches of existentialism because it believes that reality sucks harder. Anime dazed I dunno, it's complicated. It's hardly as sophisticated as its few believers think considering it revolves around a singular contradiction: "There are no absolutes." (Except this absolute statement!) I don't think Anno really subscribes to it anymore given the thematic trend of the Rebuild movies, which I'm really enjoying, unlike the TV series.

If that's really the sentence about EoE though, well, of course it's inaccurate, but the book doesn't demand you believe everything the author says. It's like a lecture in college. The weaker-minded students go into university and get molded by the professor into haughty "elites" educated beyond their intelligence, and those with stronger principles and senses of exploration ask questions when what the professor says just doesn't line up with reality. Regardless of your opinion on their beliefs, you at least respect the professor for their experience and seniority and just try to find middle ground where it exists because to a great degree they DO know what they're talking about...but this is the arts, so they may have become a bit too self-indulgent along the way.

I think her writing was at its strongest when she was explaining Akira. She definitely knew what she was talking about in that article and it shows. For a movie that's supposed to be one of the glorified pedestals of fandom, most of what I hear from actual fans about it is that "It sucks and it doesn't actually make sense." It's a flawed movie yes, but that's just stupid. Of course it makes sense, you just have to actually use your brain, and it helps if you know a thing or two about Japanese social concerns like Napier did in her research. So I really enjoyed her writings on Akira and I think more fans that say "Akira blows" should read them to try and understand why it was made.

Conversely, she was completely wrong from the first sentence about Wolf's Rain. Most of what she wrote wasn't concerned with the spiritual themes anyway, but in her glancing of them, she wrote that Wolf's Rain was an "elegy to lost dreams" and summed it up as a tragedy where the wolves made the wrong decision but maybe it was worth it for them on the inside, etc etc. It was something close to that. The problem is that you'd have to change the ending and a blue million details in the middle to make it into that. So...she did change the ending, in her writings that is. She said multiple times that the series ends with spoiler[Kiba lying dead in the snow] but...it doesn't. There's another very crucial five minutes or so to that ending. If she references the epilogue at all, I think she said that spoiler[the vicious cycle continues for the wolves, except they have no memory of it which is wrong on both counts. Number one, what wolves, that's in Japan and those are actual human beings, a key point to making sense of the ending, and number two, it looks like Kiba 2.0 remembers something, which brings us full circle to the opening of the series.] Was I offended by it and stopped reading? Oh heck no, I wanted to see why she had reached the conclusions she had reached about this story. (Answer: I'm not really sure. I think she shut the TV off before the last five minutes of the series or else just didn't like them and dismissed them because she had already drawn her conclusions about what she wanted the story to be about. Who knows?)

Now the stuff about pornographic anime that she spends a whole chapter on does really leave me scratching my head. I tried my hardest to agree with what in the world she was talking about, but I basically came around to: "It's JUST PORN. The Japanese like to have a plot in theirs, it's clearly a cultural thing because they all tend to have a plot but it's JUST PORN." Despite all of this, I still like the book a lot and I think it has a fair shake more well-researched truth to share than misguided opinion. But there's always going to be both in books of this type.

I gueeeeess if I had to say she has a stumbling point as a scholar it's that she tries to apply the same model of analysis and the same fixation, sexuality as a marker of self-identification for example, to ALL her subjects. Sometimes you can't do that. It's sort of like feminist or marxist criticism. Good ideas both, but they can't be applied to every novel just because it's a novel. You end up talking circles around things that don't exist.

So the chapters on Wolf's Rain ended up talking about masculinity...in the wolf characters. Not what I was expecting to read about on that series. There were valid points there, but only insofar as they were a classic sentai team with fairly more development as characters. So she could have picked any sentai team, changed the names, and much of that article would have worked. This also makes me wish she had written more extensively on Revolutionary Girl Utena...the series, not the movie. I think she would have nailed the more classical ideas at its heart, but she wrote about the movie which...doesn't really have those. What she wrote was really accurate, but the movie's symbolism is about as subtle as a brick to the face and its message is so simple that it had to ruin/water down the villain character to get it to work. (Most people just skimp on the series and go "OMG, this is about girl power and lesbians, squee!" and miss the far more complex themes of the series. You can kinda do the "girl power and lesbians" thing with the movie, though. Kinda.) Regardless, I really like reading her stuff even when I don't agree with it. Forces me to think about what I'm reading, right? Very Happy
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_V_



Joined: 13 Apr 2009
Posts: 619
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:43 am Reply with quote
Quote:
you at least respect the professor for their experience and seniority and just try to find middle ground where it exists because to a great degree they DO know what they're talking about...but this is the arts, so they may have become a bit too self-indulgent along the way.


Well...No. I don't respect a professor who had the audacity to talk about a subject which they know little about.

You provided good analysis just now: she really didn't understand Wolf's Rain and made several key errors.

Does this mean I "lose all respect for her in her capacity as a professor"? No. Does this mean I "lose all respect for her in her capacity as a "Wolf's Rain expert"...YES. Does this mean I "lose all respect for her as an Akira expert?" No.

"Experience and seniority" counts for nothing if they still don't do a good job; indeed, it only adds the further insult that they basically trick readers into believing them based on...RANK?

In a publish-or-perish environment, they have to crank out a lot of "analysis". Reading too far into topics...no longer reflecting reality...has actually become a big business.

We could always have stood up and said "No", but instead we simply accepted that this was "the order of things"...why?

I don't respect people who talk about Evangelion when they don't really understand it, but present themselves to other people as if they did a lot of research...and it doesn't matter if they watched the series 15 years ago or 5 weeks ago, they're just as wrong.

Quote:
On those points, I really agreed with what she had to say. As for the other, well, Evangelion is an existentialist work, but that's a BIIIIIG broad category so she still may have had it wrong. It's pomo existentialism, which kind of considers itself "higher" than humanistic branches of existentialism because it believes that reality sucks harder. I dunno, it's complicated. It's hardly as sophisticated as its few believers think considering it revolves around a singular contradiction: "There are no absolutes." (Except this absolute statement!)


...No. Succinctly, the easy-to-understand meaning of the series was "life is really hard, but there's only one reality and we're kind of stuck with it, so work hard to make the most of it, and because its real it had value that fantasy can never have"

Yes, Evangelion was ultimately saying "there ARE absolutes"; he is real, he can't run away from the real world, his fantasies are meaningless. The real world is absolute.

How did this get twisted into a theorization-machine in which "every theory is correct", and "the meaning of the story is that there is no meaning?"

If anything, it was about finding that life DOES have inherent meaning.

If this is what passes for Eva analysis anymore, than we need a new ReVolution...
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