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REVIEW: CLAMPdown




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Charou



Joined: 01 May 2018
Posts: 123
Location: Sydney, Australia
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:36 pm Reply with quote
Hahaha c-word censored dutifully in the article but not in the main page blurb. Whoops.

See my location to more fully understand my amusement.

Might give this a look. Clamp are a fascinating phenomenon responsible for some my favourite if most frustrating anime and manga experiences.
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MagicPolly



Joined: 26 Nov 2020
Posts: 1566
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:57 pm Reply with quote
It seems like the book would be interesting just for an overall history sort of thing. It's unfortunate that (what seems like) most people's knowledge of CLAMP these days seems to just be Cardcaptor Sakura, Code Geass, and the Jojo egg doujin (when will people ever shut up about it?). I only got deep into CLAMP a couple years ago and I'm far from having read/watched all their works, but I'm pretty familiar with their history so I'm not sure how much I'd end up getting out of it. The eye loss table sounds amusing though, I've counted 5 or 6 from what I've seen so far.

Saying that their earliest works consisted of Jojo doujinshi feels weird considering Stardust Crusaders started in 1989, which was the same year as their professional debut. They'd been a doujin circle for a few years before then, so this feels like the obsession people have with the Jojo egg doujin again.

The Subaru/Seishirou thing is... a bit weird for multiple reasons. I wish the manga would stop being labeled as BL on some sites mainly because it's really not a romance story (it always feels like they're just going gay characters = BL*). There's also the fact that spoiler[while sure Subaru realized he had feelings for Seishirou in the end, Seishirou (supposedly?) never developed feelings in return since he says he won the bet. Claiming that they're a couple feels like it ignores TB's ending and X to only focus on their interactions in the beginning (a lot of which were Seishirou forcing himself onto Subaru). Also Subaru was nine when the bet was made and the fact that there's a nine year age gap between them is extremely offputting (possibly the point but knowing CLAMP probably not). I dunno, I have no issue with saying both of them are probably gay or bi but saying they're a couple/lovers feels tone deaf to the rest of the story.]

Calling Miyuki-chan porn is very funny considering it's ecchi at worst. It's always felt really weird and out of place from their other works. The lack of Clover analysis is disappointing since even not understanding the story (I probably need to reread it myself), the artwork and composition feel like it'd be more than enough to go off of.

*this has been the case with Legal Drug a lot too. Weirdly Wish is tagged with both shounen-ai and male harem on ANN. I've submitted error reports before but nothing has gone through yet. This doesn't really have anything to do with the book but this has been an issue for a while and I figured I'd bring it up here.
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Triltaison



Joined: 03 Jul 2011
Posts: 715
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:48 pm Reply with quote
MagicPolly wrote:
Saying that their earliest works consisted of Jojo doujinshi feels weird considering Stardust Crusaders started in 1989, which was the same year as their professional debut. They'd been a doujin circle for a few years before then, so this feels like the obsession people have with the Jojo egg doujin again.


I don't know anything at all about the Jojo's fandom angle since I don't follow it in any capacity whatsoever, but I was a hardcore CLAMP fan for years. I haven't enjoyed much of their newer stuff since Kobato's reboot, but I hungrily devoured all the materials prior to that one along with interviews and such. Iirc, it was CLAMP themselves that kinda maintained that they considered the Jojo doujin stuff their first real works as a group. That was why they had the CLAMP in Wonderland music video end on a Jojo cameo, as a nod to where it began.

I might be wrong since I'm remembering information from well over a decade ago, but that was what I remember interviews saying at the time.
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wolf10



Joined: 23 Jan 2016
Posts: 895
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:50 pm Reply with quote
The oldest of their stuff I've seen was for Devilman (which explains SO MUCH if you really think about it), but where that work falls in relation to Jojo or going pro I'll admit I don't know off the top of my head. (Devilman is from the 70s, but it has had a long shelf-life.)

MagicPolly wrote:
The Subaru/Seishirou thing is... a bit weird for multiple reasons. I wish the manga would stop being labeled as BL on some sites mainly because it's really not a romance story (it always feels like they're just going gay characters = BL*).
Yeah, it's definitely not BL, and not in the "I'm not like other BLs" way that Sasaki and Miyano is often classified. I don't doubt it was pretty influential on the genre, though. Also, I'm not sure if anyone is really "gay" in CLAMP works, since barring a few subtexty outliers I can think of, they have a pretty solid track record of framing male-male relationships as toxic and/or unnatural. No, I was not one of the lucky ones who had some magical queer experience reading CLAMP stuff as a kid. (Though I did always think Syaoran was pretty cute, and that probably should have made something click. Ahem.)

And in case anyone is now casting sidelong glances at my handle just now, I'm not Ian Wolf. I am laughing at the coincidence, though.
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Cutiebunny



Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 1746
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:06 pm Reply with quote
When they were at Anime Expo many eons ago, they were rude. Not showing up for panels. Making people stand a couple feet away from them at their signing, having to bend over to hand them an autograph board...all of that has left a bad taste in my mouth when it comes to CLAMP and their works. I've met seveal other artists through the years, and maybe with the exception of a couple of them (Looking at you, Akemi Takada), most of them acted nothing like CLAMP. While I love Cardcaptor Sakura (well..pre-Clear Card), xxxHolic and Kobato, I find myself more in love with the animated versions of these series and less so the manga. I typically don't support artists if they're rude.

I have never understood why people use offensive language while writing, particularly if they're trying to prove a point. Unless a particular character is meant to speak crudely, I think that such language is distracting from the story and/or point attempting to be made. Maybe it's a modern British writing thing? I don't know.
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Ryu Shoji



Joined: 15 Jul 2009
Posts: 671
Location: Cambridge, United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:07 am Reply with quote
Regarding the use of the term “Asperger’s”, it’s a familiar term that’s still in common colloquial use here in the UK. I have autism myself and my older brother was specifically diagnosed with “Asperger’s Syndrome”, but I myself only became aware that ASD is being introduced as a more standardised replacement when my younger brother started working in a school. We’re in our late 20s/early 30s, so it’s probable that if someone hasn’t worked in a professional setting where they’d need such training in recent years, that they might not know that terminology like “Asperger’s Syndrome” are being phased out.
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Natsu_of_TeamSummerB



Joined: 01 Feb 2014
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:45 am Reply with quote
CLAMP-fan for more than 23 years now. I'm a bit baffled that there are still people who didn't understand that Subaru and Seishiro loved each other, were each others most important person (just like e.g. SakuraxShalon). The confirmation was even spelled out by Seishiros mother: he will be killed by the person he loves most.
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R. Kasahara



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 643
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:10 pm Reply with quote
Sounds like the old CLAMP Manga Moveable Feast would be a more worthwhile use of time than this book.
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Suxinn



Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 241
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:08 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, Subaru and Seishirou were definitely, textually in love with each other. Subaru says it outright at the end of Tokyo Babylon (and reveals in X that his feelings have never changed). Seishirou's feelings are more... covert, but all signs point to it...

spoiler[1. As mentioned by another commenter, Seishirou's mother outright states in one of the flashback extra chapters that he'll be killed by the one he loves. This is framed in the narrative as a prophetic proclamation, and not just some random guess.

2. Hokuto's last "curse" on Seishirou was that, if he tries to kill Subaru in specifically the same way he killed her, the curse would rebound on him and he'd die. She tells him this outright, in the hopes that he won't do it. But Seishirou ends up doing it (even though he has other methods for killing Subaru that wouldn't result in he himself dying) and states in their final battle that he had always thought Subaru's dearest wish was to kill him, implying that he purposely did all this just to fulfill Subaru's wish.

3. Fuuma talks about how possessive Seishirou was over Subaru, and even states that Seishirou's last wish was to erase all traces of another man (Subaru's eye injury suffered from Fuuma) by having Subaru take his eye. This is framed by the narrative as a fact presented by omniscient Fuuma, not just speculation.]


I think most of fandom collectively agree that Seishirou is just dense as heck and doesn't realize his feelings until the end, resulting in some Extremely Poor Decisions.

However, I do agree with the reviewer in that I wouldn't necessarily call them "gay lovers", since their sexuality is never mentioned (heck, either of them could be bi, or ace, or just into each other exclusively -- we don't know!) and neither are they ever... lovers. They loved one another, sure, but their relationship was deeply unhealthy, and probably would've been a mess if it had ever come to fruition, especially in TB (when Subaru was still way too young).
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Takkun4343



Joined: 19 Jul 2007
Posts: 1491
Location: Englewood, Ohio
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:22 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
...“Asperger's”... The former is more contentious, since the term for what is now simply referred to as ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder) was retired specifically because Asperger himself had strong ties to the Nazis, but generations of people were raised using the term as part of their identity. While I cannot tell them that they are wrong, because that's not my particular disability, I can say that as a Jewish woman its continued (and often repeated in the book) usage makes me uncomfortable.

So what you're saying is that there's nothing wrong with me referring to myself as such, I just have to take care not to use the term around those who might think of its mere usage as Nazi apologia? Eh, works for me.
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Greboruri



Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 373
Location: QBN, NSW, Australia
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:03 pm Reply with quote
Takkun4343 wrote:
Quote:
...“Asperger's”... The former is more contentious, since the term for what is now simply referred to as ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder) was retired specifically because Asperger himself had strong ties to the Nazis, but generations of people were raised using the term as part of their identity. While I cannot tell them that they are wrong, because that's not my particular disability, I can say that as a Jewish woman its continued (and often repeated in the book) usage makes me uncomfortable.

So what you're saying is that there's nothing wrong with me referring to myself as such, I just have to take care not to use the term around those who might think of its mere usage as Nazi apologia? Eh, works for me.

I can't help how Rebecca feels about the name of the diagnosis, but I do find it odd it is written about in this way. I haven't read the book, but I bet London to a brick Ian Wolf didn't use the name of the diagnosis in a positive way. Not sure piling on more negativity on to a group of people who are already demonised and misunderstood by the wider population really helps. Personally I'm not really interested in or have the patience to get a new diagnosis under the classification of the DSM5 so people don't feel uncomfortable about my current diagnosis, which honestly I do not like or wanted in the first place.
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Ian Wolf



Joined: 01 Dec 2022
Posts: 3
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:50 am Reply with quote
Greboruri wrote:
Takkun4343 wrote:
Quote:
...“Asperger's”... The former is more contentious, since the term for what is now simply referred to as ASD (Autism Spectrum Disorder) was retired specifically because Asperger himself had strong ties to the Nazis, but generations of people were raised using the term as part of their identity. While I cannot tell them that they are wrong, because that's not my particular disability, I can say that as a Jewish woman its continued (and often repeated in the book) usage makes me uncomfortable.

So what you're saying is that there's nothing wrong with me referring to myself as such, I just have to take care not to use the term around those who might think of its mere usage as Nazi apologia? Eh, works for me.

I can't help how Rebecca feels about the name of the diagnosis, but I do find it odd it is written about in this way. I haven't read the book, but I bet London to a brick Ian Wolf didn't use the name of the diagnosis in a positive way. Not sure piling on more negativity on to a group of people who are already demonised and misunderstood by the wider population really helps. Personally I'm not really interested in or have the patience to get a new diagnosis under the classification of the DSM5 so people don't feel uncomfortable about my current diagnosis, which honestly I do not like or wanted in the first place.


Hi there,

I didn't want to butt into the forums discussing my book, but I feel the need to do so now to deal with this issue.

I used the term "Aspergers" because that is what I have. I have this condition, and I know there are debates about using the term. I talked to my publisher about whether the term should be used or whether I should go with ASD, and she said, as someone who also had a relation on the spectrum, that Aspergers was what I was diagnosed with, and that I should go with that.

I would never use the terms "Aspergers" or "Autism" as an insult. On a related note, and one of the things I bring up in the book which I don't think comes up in the review, is my complaint about translators, namely American translators, using the words "Spastic" or "Spaz" as an insult, which it does in "CLAMP School Detectives". In Britain, that would is one of the biggest insults towards disabled people around. Britain's largest disability charity, Scope, was originally called The Spastic Society, but had to change its name when the word became an insult. I personally wish Americans would stop using that word.

As for the c-word, well I come from Teesside, Nort-East England, and let's just say we are less hung-up on that word around here. Also, I am someone who has helped track and lead a campaign to make two songs about Boris Johnson, both of which call him a "f***ing c***", to the Christmas No. 1 single spot (both got to No. 5), its certainly a word I have no major problems with. The c-word does feel somewhat of an internal monologue, normally describing myself as it.

Regards,

Ian
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Princess_Irene
ANN Reviewer


Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 2597
Location: The castle beyond the Goblin City
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:40 am Reply with quote
Thanks, Ian! I really appreciate you jumping in, especially since I've broken my right arm (surgery to put it back together next week) and typing is a bit labor-intensive right now.

For my own clarifications, there's nothing wrong with whatever diagnosis name anyone goes with. I'm relieved that my nephew can use one that isn't related to the group that killed our family, but it's a new term and no one HAS to switch to it. I do think it's important to understand that the name change wasn't arbitrary and why some are glad it was changed.

And as I said in the review, c*** is only an issue in a very few of the English-speaking nations out there. I mentioned it because hopefully Ian's book is read by people around the world. It may not have been my cup of tea, but it's a remarkable labor of love and I still giggle about the way he phrased the bit about Fuma.
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Ian Wolf



Joined: 01 Dec 2022
Posts: 3
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:35 am Reply with quote
Princess_Irene wrote:
Thanks, Ian! I really appreciate you jumping in, especially since I've broken my right arm (surgery to put it back together next week) and typing is a bit labor-intensive right now.

For my own clarifications, there's nothing wrong with whatever diagnosis name anyone goes with. I'm relieved that my nephew can use one that isn't related to the group that killed our family, but it's a new term and no one HAS to switch to it. I do think it's important to understand that the name change wasn't arbitrary and why some are glad it was changed.

And as I said in the review, c*** is only an issue in a very few of the English-speaking nations out there. I mentioned it because hopefully Ian's book is read by people around the world. It may not have been my cup of tea, but it's a remarkable labor of love and I still giggle about the way he phrased the bit about Fuma.


Thank you very much. The Kickstarter campaign did indeed reach many parts of the world: I sent copies to Hong Kong, New Zealand, Trinidad and Tobago, Brazil and the Faroe Islands among other places.
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