×
  • remind me tomorrow
  • remind me next week
  • never remind me
Subscribe to the ANN Newsletter • Wake up every Sunday to a curated list of ANN's most interesting posts of the week. read more

Forum - View topic
Are Japanese High Schools really that bad?


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

Anime News Network Forum Index -> General -> Anime
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 9902
Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:56 pm Reply with quote
selenta wrote:
Both law and social modern social morals hold that it is ok to defend yourself with appropriate force, but that doesn't mean stabbing the guy in the throat when he calls you a queer in the hallway.

Apparently you know very little about Japanese and East Asian society and culture.

The very first difference I could tell between you and Porcupine was the definition of bullying. Many ijime actions are considered criminal actions in US, yet teachers or other authorities would not bother to investigate in Japan. Tell me what you would do if you found your outdoor shoes (remember that Japanese schools have shoe boxes for indoor/outdoor shoes) heavily damaged, destroyed, or mysteriously disappeared when you are about to go home? Report to your homeroom teacher? Expect s/he tells you "think again if you had done something wrong to others then come back to me when you have a clue of who-dun-it."

Another factor is the law system (influenced by the moral values anyway). In one of Tsukasa Hojo's manga (IIRC Rash!, not included in the Encyc, yet...), victim's father, who tried to protect his daughter, was jailed for excessive self-defense and served longer than the assaulter because the latter was declared mentally ill. I don't have any hard numbers at hand, but "excessive self-defense" is a term I see very often in manga (police and judicial ones in particular) -- way, way more often than it should be. It may be unimaginable for most Americans, who can legally shoot a burglar breaking into one's own house.

Furthermore, ijime is rarely "one on one" but almost always "several on one," making the victim unable to "defend" him/herself: if s/he shows any sign of "disrespect" then more "penalties" will be received. It is virtually impossible to defend oneself if s/he is completely surrounded by numerical superiority.

There's also an interesting personal observation: the reactions of Japanese seeing an open (bleeding) wound. Of course I can't speak for general Japanese population, but from all those years I feel that Japanese seem to fear a small cut more than a large bruise. Likewise, they also see a paper cutter more threatening than a metal baseball bat. Let me know if I were mistaken.

Last but not least: what about when (not if, but WHEN) teachers and/or parents are behind those ijime actions?

Too bad there are not many English reports on Tsuyama massacre, the most notorious "result" of a chronic ijime victim.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger ICQ Number My Anime My Manga
selenta
Subscriber



Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 1774
Location: Seattle, WA
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:23 pm Reply with quote
dormcat wrote:
selenta wrote:
Both law and social modern social morals hold that it is ok to defend yourself with appropriate force, but that doesn't mean stabbing the guy in the throat when he calls you a queer in the hallway.

Apparently you know very little about Japanese and East Asian society and culture.


Actually, I was mostly saying that within the context of the most recent aspect we were talking about: bullying responses in the US. However, I stand by my statement in name for most Asian countries as well, even if it's not the way people always respond, it seems to considered perfectly ok; though as anybody can tell you, the legal system in Japan (in particular) does not work the way it is supposed to.

dormcat wrote:
Another factor is the law system (influenced by the moral values anyway). In one of Tsukasa Hojo's manga (IIRC Rash!, not included in the Encyc, yet...), victim's father, who tried to protect his daughter, was jailed for excessive self-defense and served longer than the assaulter because the latter was declared mentally ill. I don't have any hard numbers at hand, but "excessive self-defense" is a term I see very often in manga (police and judicial ones in particular) -- way, way more often than it should be. It may be unimaginable for most Americans, who can legally shoot a burglar breaking into one's own house.


You have to warn them to get out and give them a chance to get out if I remember correctly... but then again, it's your word versus a dead guy, so you're probably ok. Yes, I know, the law system doesn't always work the way it's supposed to, in any country. If you want to look at a country's morals you have to look more at the laws than the results of the cases in my experience.

dormcat wrote:
There's also an interesting personal observation: the reactions of Japanese seeing an open (bleeding) wound. Of course I can't speak for general Japanese population, but from all those years I feel that Japanese seem to fear a small cut more than a large bruise. Likewise, they also see a paper cutter more threatening than a metal baseball bat. Let me know if I were mistaken.


Interesting, I never would have made such a connection. Maybe that's why in anime a character can get the snot beat out of them and everyone believes them when they say "no, I'm perfectly fine", while a scrape on the shin is a huge deal requiring immediate attention from who ever is closest by. Laughing Or maybe it's just a situational gag, or maybe both? Hard to tell sometimes, occasionally there's a nugget of truth thrown into those gags.

dormcat wrote:
Too bad there are not many English reports on Tsuyama massacre, the most notorious "result" of a chronic ijime victim.


Wow... that's dedicated, to cut the power lines and everything... guess it just goes to show how serious the mental strain put on someone from years of psychological abuse is.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
Samurai-with-glasses



Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 628
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:09 pm Reply with quote
dormcat wrote:
Many ijime actions are considered criminal actions in US, yet teachers or other authorities would not bother to investigate in Japan. Tell me what you would do if you found your outdoor shoes (remember that Japanese schools have shoe boxes for indoor/outdoor shoes) heavily damaged, destroyed, or mysteriously disappeared when you are about to go home? Report to your homeroom teacher? Expect s/he tells you "think again if you had done something wrong to others then come back to me when you have a clue of who-dun-it."
That's ****ed up. No wonder there's so many hikkikomori out there in Japan. Confused

I guess it does fit into the whole "Japan = social norm above individuality" stereotype, though. The facade of social harmony ought to be maintained at all costs...

I guess I'm lucky that I never was seriously bullied to any extent.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Goodpenguin



Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 457
Location: Hunt Valley, MD
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:15 pm Reply with quote
For folks asking for articles, just Google 'Japanese School Violence' and go from there. For the lazy here are two good summary articles:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16500163/site/newsweek/

(Double grim bonus awarded for Abe's solution of more 'patriotism' classes, which is exactly what Japan doesn't need.)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50678-2004Aug8.html

(A few years old but mentions a few famous cases.)

Though I currently toil in the belly of the business world beast, I spent roughly a decade as a teacher. Several of those years I spent overseas, first in Germany and then about a year and a half in Japan. While by no means an expert, and being sure there are posters with much more Japanese exposure then myself, I do have a limited view of the subject.

Firstly, and most importantly, kids (and young adults) are really the same the world over, it's the culture which colors the more extreme behavioral nuances. Japanese kids certainly aren't running wild in the streets like some accounts may make it seem, but rather terrible behavior is allowed to flourish by a few rather dark Japanese cultural traits that Japanese society refuses (in large) to deal with.

A real discussion of this would be much longer than a message board permits (and probably very few would want to see it on an entertainment-themed board), so to make a quick relevant point: Honestly imagine you are 13/14 years old, and your sole entertainment is manga/anime. Three quarters of you probably just thought 'That basically all I watch/read now', but hey, no cheating folks, toss out all your Western emotional/cultural underpinnings. Really think about the characters and situations in teen aimed manga/anime. You often hear phrases on this site as people discuss works like 'over-the-top violence' and 'guilty pleasure melodrama', but isn't that because we have other emotional models that allow us to see things as obviously unrealistic interactions. Of course Japanese boys don't expect to get involved in life-or-death fighting tournaments and girls aren't going to run into that pretty 'female' homeroom teacher who's really a cute sensitive man secretly in love with them, but again, you are a young adult, emotions are stuck on hyper, and what kind of cultural cues are you getting?

Before folks blow their tops, I'm not suggesting manga or anime make kids violent. I'm highlighting anime/manga to illustrate how prevalent themes of alienation/anger/confusion are in Japanese culture. Manga/anime reflects the cultural problems, not causes them. However, I am noting that Japanese entertainment shoves vast quantities of highly emotional, often violent (both physical and perhaps more damaging, sexual) material right at a market least able to put it in perspective. In our (Western) entertainment we have soapy drama and cartoonish violence, but we also have a good portion of humorous/emotionally honest material and outlets that act as a 'steam valve' of emotional sorts, and that is really lacking for Japanese kids. (Both in entertainment, and importantly from society/family).

A few nights ago I was flipping through cable and happened upon a rather generic anime running on "Starz" or some such, who's premise was a female Yakuza heir was caught working as a teacher. The male lead was typical of the genre, sullen, bossy and mean to his friends (who idolized his 'coolness'), and when he becomes infatuated with the female lead rather than befriending her he of course challenges her to a fight. Now it's all very harmless stuff, but I couldn't help being struck how much of a jerk this supposed 'good guy' character was and how many students I interacted with in Japan tried to emulate those very common behaviors. There is such an immense pressure to not be a 'loser', and showing emotions or being different in any way is perceived as weakness. Once a person starts being teased others join right in because the best way to ensure your not next is to keep the pressure on someone else. That can be a common model anywhere, but in Japan it's difficult cultural background can make things spiral quickly, and carry pressures we don't really have equivalents of.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 9902
Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:19 pm Reply with quote
Samurai-with-glasses wrote:
That's ****ed up. No wonder there's so many hikkikomori out there in Japan. Confused

Exactly. Many people, include mainstream media and even some anime fans, often link otakudom and hikkikomori together. However, hikkikomori came long way from school refusal (登校拒否 tōkō kyohi; note: if you could read Japanese, compare the two Wikipedia articles and you'd find they were actually in quite different directions), way before the boom of anime/manga/games. According to the said article, ijime is the reason of roughly 3/4 of school refusal cases in Japan.

Think what you would do if your shoes end up missing and your textbook with pages torn away every day for two weeks or more; teachers don't give a sh*t about it, and your parents have no mean to help you. My mom was a middle school teacher and knew many educational officials and superintendents; even that I still became a target, so imagine how helpless and powerless parents of families with incomes and educational levels below average are. By the way, poverty is also an easy prey.

Goodpenguin wrote:
There is such an immense pressure to not be a 'loser', and showing emotions or being different in any way is perceived as weakness. Once a person starts being teased others join right in because the best way to ensure your not next is to keep the pressure on someone else. That can be a common model anywhere, but in Japan it's difficult cultural background can make things spiral quickly, and carry pressures we don't really have equivalents of.

Quoted for truth. In Japan, if you get labeled as a loser once, your life is doomed. Completely.

And the easiest (although very sickening) way to avoid it is to find another person who is more loser-ish than you are.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger ICQ Number My Anime My Manga
darksideoftheanime



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 155
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:03 am Reply with quote
There is a Japanese exchange student coming to my school this year. If she will let me maybe I should interview her about this.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
inuyasha128b



Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 5
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:58 am Reply with quote
I notice that nobody paid attention to anything I said, but I'm new here so what the hay. as for somebody saying that the attackers hit the power lines, read my blog and it'll point out the general reasons. (a.k.a. stupidity)

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog&Mytoken=F727B15B-ADA0-404C-927542C111295D6813796626

btw, isn't it odd that we're all westerners and nobody from japan has found this blog yet? is there a shortage of asians on ANN? seems like a dude in japan woulda stumbled onto us by now.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
abunai
Old Regular


Joined: 05 Mar 2004
Posts: 5463
Location: 露命
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:29 am Reply with quote
inuyasha128b wrote:
I notice that nobody paid attention to anything I said, but I'm new here so what the hay. as for somebody saying that the attackers hit the power lines, read my blog and it'll point out the general reasons. (a.k.a. stupidity)

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog&Mytoken=F727B15B-ADA0-404C-927542C111295D6813796626

This link requires that one is logged in to MySpace to follow it. Hardly likely.

inuyasha128b wrote:
btw, isn't it odd that we're all westerners and nobody from japan has found this blog yet? is there a shortage of asians on ANN? seems like a dude in japan woulda stumbled onto us by now.....

Excuse me? If you're saying what I think you're saying then you have completely failed to understand this site.

First, this is not a blog. It's a moderated forum, one that is part of a news site.

Second.... what on Earth makes you say that there are no Asians in these forums?

- abunai

EDIT to correct a grammatical mistake.


Last edited by abunai on Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
darksideoftheanime



Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 155
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:27 am Reply with quote
inuyasha128b wrote:
btw, isn't it odd that we're all westerners and nobody from japan has found this blog yet? is there a shortage of asians on ANN? seems like a dude in japan woulda stumbled onto us by now.....


Isn't dormcat from Asia or just lives there?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hentai4me



Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Posts: 1313
Location: England. Robin is so Cute!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:28 am Reply with quote
Further how much of ANN is actually in Japanese/Chinese/Korean? Considering how most search engines work and considering that most Asians(in Asia) would be typing in one of those languages why would ANN come up that often? And why would they choose to be on an English language site when there have to be just as many high quality forums/blogs/etc in Asian languages?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
frentymon
Forums Superstar


Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 2362
Location: San Francisco
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:17 pm Reply with quote
darksideoftheanime wrote:
Isn't dormcat from Asia or just lives there?


He is asian, native of Taiwan if I'm not mistaken.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address My Anime
fighterholic



Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 9193
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:19 pm Reply with quote
darksideoftheanime wrote:
Isn't dormcat from Asia or just lives there?

dormcat lives in Hsinchu City, Taiwan. It says so in his location.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
Viga_of_stars



Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Posts: 1240
Location: Washington D.C. in the Anime Atelier
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:28 pm Reply with quote
Okay now that I caught up on this thread I could say something.

Its really bad that the teachers in japan has a blind eye to bullying which used to be something america used to do. I was a child in the age when that practice was done with created many memories that would be too long to share.

With some of the stuff I see in anime and manga with bullying I thought was just a drama effect for story until I heard it to be just as Effed up in real life like those. Like in shadowstar narutaru spoiler[in episode 10 11 and 12 that deals with hiroko ( the pigtailed girl) and akiras bully circumstances that ended in really bloody dragon children vengence. Im talking not only social exclusion but making someone drink worm juice or raping her with a chemical tube and jumping her.] i couldn't imagine that intense type of bullying in japan before. I always thought america was the worst.

But heres a question. how come here when the victim usually goes crazy and go overkill rather than japan where they either kill themselves or shut out the world and become hikikomori?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
frentymon
Forums Superstar


Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 2362
Location: San Francisco
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:51 pm Reply with quote
Viga_of_stars wrote:
But heres a question. how come here when the victim usually goes crazy and go overkill rather than japan where they either kill themselves or shut out the world and become hikikomori?


I don't think the assumption that the typical bully victim "here" (the States, I assume) usually goes on a killing rampage is true at all. The incidents you hear on the news where such occurs are rare and extreme cases, and most victims of extreme bullying get depressed, and/or completely lose confidence in themselves (not unlike hikikomori in Japan).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address My Anime
hentai4me



Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Posts: 1313
Location: England. Robin is so Cute!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:39 pm Reply with quote
I think the situation is far less serious here in the UK simply because teachers didn't traditionally turn a blind eye. Historically the teacher had massive authority and could enforce it physically through the cane until relatively recently. This created the kind of climate in which the teacher will intervene, or at least wants to try and intervene. The newly changing climate though has sapped teachers of all authority, they can, and will, tell children to stop but they can no longer actually do anything about it.

Further the mindset of Porcupine, as in bring a knife to school, is creeping in. While gangs and violence are far from new the presence in schools has recently become a lot more common. This is what comes of Porcupine's way of thinking:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6261024.stm

Quote:
Hasan later told police he had been trying to scratch Kiyan in the arm, "but it went deep in... cos I never used a knife before".


Notice how this boy seemed to do the exact same thing as Porcupine suggests, using the knife in a 'non lethal' way but still ends up killing the boy in question. Though I very much doubt the attackers version of events.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Anime News Network Forum Index -> General -> Anime All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Page 5 of 9

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group