Forum - View topicNEWS: Funimation Enforces Intellectual Property Rights
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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You're quite right. There would indeed not be a reason for a company making as much money as they hope to make to downsize anybody. Of course the "as much money as they hope to make" part wasn't a part of the analogy, that was a sepperate statement.
That is too bad. The economy overall isn't pretty, but if anything it'll just cause them to tighten their belts and only produce the stuff that works, and less of the stuff that doesn't. A little competativeness isn't that bad.
Yes, they are, just as the RIAA says mp3 downloads cut into their's. Neither of them have anything other than paranoid speculation to back that up though.
There is doubt, quite reasonable doubt. I think it's fairly likely that, in the short term at least, sales would go up a little bit. If a fansub of a show had 5000 downloads, and the fansubs were shut down, then would sales increase by 5000 units? Not hardly. A few hundred tops. In the long term though, there are numerous negative consequences. A: More people will buy product that they are not happy with because they're unable to properly demo it. This will lead to them becomeing more disgruntled, and buying less anime overall. The industry loses money. B: More people will only buy "sure thing" anime that they're dead sure they'll like. This will mean that more fringe series that they just "might" like will not sell nearly as well as they currently do. The industry loses money, and fringe titles make dramatically less money, less get made. C: Most people that currently download subs will not move on to purchasing anime. They will go from non-customer viewers of anime to non-customer non-viewers of anime (aside from what they can get off TV). They will be sad. Most series do not gain the same level of hype they do now, most current non-fansub viewers will not know as much about new anime as they do now (from fansub viewer opinions), and most "off the beaten path" shows will never be heard of by the US masses. The anime makes slightly more money off that, but not much, and any they do make is offset by the above penalties. In short, Funi is making a stupid move. It's not their first, it won't be their last, hopefully.
Bull. It's a stupid law. Illegal is illegal, but that doesn't make it right or wrong. People break laws all the time, normal, God fearing people. I regularly drive down a highway where the speed limit is 55 and yet EVERYONE drives 75-80, simply because they can. That's illegal. People litter, people jaywalk, people do fanart of liscensed properties, millions of people download mp3s, all illegal, but none wrong, if done responsibly. I don't have a problem with people who belive that downloading is wrong, and so they don't do it. I don't have a problem with people who accept that downloading is illegal, and see that as a reason not to do it because they NEVER do anything remotely illegal, and so they don't do it. I do, however, have a problem with people that believe that they have the right to tell ME what should be wrong to ME. You haven't earned that right.
They have every legal right to do it, just as their customers have every legal right to take it personally, and perhaps not be as kind to them in future as they have been in the past. If there's nothing "wrong" with what Funi did, then there's certainly nothing "wrong" with those effected holding it against them, and punishing them as well as is within their power for it.
If a distributor liscenses a series before the subs are finished, it is responsible fan-subbing for the group to finish the series. Otherwise the fans who watched up to episode 19 would be waiting for episode 20 for quite some time, and that would just be rude. For example, Funi liscensed Basilisk this summer, and the group doing it just gave up on the series. Now one of my friends, who doesn't download himself but watches stuff we download is constantly asking where Basilisk is. We don't know, Funi certainly hasn't put it out yet. ANN still doesn't have a cast list or release date yet. |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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It is a lost sale. For every downloader that downloaded it to give it a test drive and will buy it there's probably an equal number or more that downloaded it to own it that way with no money or respect given to the artists. It has its place, and hey, offering the first few episodes for download may not be a bad idea. The problem is the people that download and do so to obtain the full series for free, essentially stealing. As for the monopoly thing, that's not really the case. If an artist creates something he doesn't have to automatically allow other artists to sell his work. If there was only one studio that was producing and releasing then it might be a monopoly issue if the market was stifled by the lack of competitive presence. |
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bayoab
Posts: 831 |
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There is a sorta story on the net. It is generally considered true. I believe for Nuku Nuku dash, the series was fansubbed through the first 3 discs. As soon as the 4th disc came out, the sale for that disc exceeded the other 3.
No, the customers have no right to take it personally. They were in the wrong to begin with.
Late Spring/Summer 2006. Announced earlier this summer. DVDs are not streeted until they know they can make street. |
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DriftRoot
 Posts: 222 Location: NH |
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Irresponsible to STOP fansubbing if a series is licensed? RUDE to stop?! To whom? You? Because you have some sort of God-given right to watch illegally distributed media that the legal license holders aren't allowed to interfere with?? *is completely baffled* This is the first time I have EVER seen anyone defending fansubbing in this manner! You have it completely backwards. It is the responsible fansub groups that immediately pull not only their old fansubs the moment a series they're working on is licensed, but entire fansub projects. It is the irresponsible fansub groups that keep on subbing after a series is licensed that give all the POLITE groups a very bad name. |
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halo
Posts: 356 |
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I'd also like to mention comparing FUNimation to the RIAA is absolutly absurd. The RIAA is a special interest group who takes a peortion of all record sales. They don't produce or sell anything themselves. FUNimation is actualy distributing a product. They have their own sales records to look at.
And why should a company have to set their release schedule around what fansubbers are doing or have already done. If it takes 2 years to produce a quality product, then I'd rather wait. This isn't 1997 where you can count the number of monthly DVD releases with your fingers, and quality releases on one hand. This is almost 2006 and there are a lot of good titles being released every month. |
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PantsGoblin
Subscriber Encyclopedia Editor  Posts: 2969 Location: L.A. |
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I've been reading this... the arguements seem to be going in circles now as I have seen points brought up that were already brought up before and argued. Oh well, it was bound to happen. Not saying that I didn't contribute to this cause I did early on.
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Keonyn
Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Simple reason for that PantsGoblin, people are inflexible and incapable of wrong in their own eyes. No matter how wrong something apparently is, if it serves their desires they will find a way to justify it regardless of the impact on others, it's greed and part of human nature. What makes one a good person is whether they or not they are capable of doing the right thing if the right thing inconveniences them or if they will continue to do and justify what is wrong simply because it serves their purpose. It's similar to the very root of what causes societies to become unstable and for cultures to clash, the inability to be flexible and respect your fellow human beings, some are respectful of others rights and others will step on those rights and find an excuse for doing it as soon as it suits them.
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halo
Posts: 356 |
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Keonyn, I'll agree with most of that. However, I don't think downloading fansubs of a licnesed series exactly makes you a bad person. Justifying it as some sort of right and claiming that a licenesee has hurt you in some way by stopping distribution of licensed anime just might though. If you want to justify it, justify it by purchasing the R1 DVD.
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remember love
 Posts: 764 Location: Germany |
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Well, for most cases people do what they believe is right according to their own moral judgement. And for a person to come up and tell them their wrong is something they don't want to hear(some of the time to the point where noone will listen and just babble words back). Personally, I myself don't like to be said I'm wrong and will do everything in my mind to prove I'm right. If you show me I'm wrong I will tell you... If you wish to prove I'm wrong it needs to be shown not said...as someone I can't remember who stated in some book that I can't rememeber the name either(weird I remember the quote just not the book or the person who wrote/said it). That's pretty much how it works alot of times is where people won't listen and you will have to actually show them the consquences of what you believe is wrong. Though I'm sure this long debate which I stop reading around page 7 will be a very hard thing to show another what you believe is right and the other wrong. |
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Insane E
Posts: 87 Location: Sweden |
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I wonder how many of the holy crusaders against fansubs got a totaly CLEAN comp of any downloaded games or other software. Not to mention all thoes MP3s and movies...
Anyway... FUNi is correct in this, should be no point in arguing that. Could they have handled it diffrently, most likely. |
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remember love
Posts: 764 Location: Germany |
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Any downloaded game I have was completely free or a trial version. MP3s' all of them that I have downloaded I already own on a CD but I don't have any software to place them on to the computer. But since I do own the CDs (I bought the CDs first mind you) I have done nothing illegal. So there's one holy warrior(sorry I don't like crusader I rahter be warrior). And how would you say handled it differently? It's either A) ignore them or B) put them down. I don't see any other way. |
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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That does not represent a "lost sale". To be a "lost sale", the second person would have actually buy the anime when not given the choice of fansubs. THAT is the X-factor, nobody knows how many "DL fansbubs, but would buy if I had to" people are out there, and how many "DL fansubs, but would never buy if I couldn't DL" people are out there. I'm certainly in the latter group. You cannot call someone a "lost sale" if they never had the potential to buy in the first place, that's just bad science, like saying that everything outside of the ocean is air (including the people, treee, buildings, etc.), simply because it "isn't water".
I can believe that. It's a short term success. How well would any of the DVDs have done if the fansub had never existed? I think it's pretty clear that the people who bought disc 4 saw the fansubs, and it's likely many who bought 1-3 did as well. That built demand. One thing that doesn't track though, is the ripple effect of that situation. How did shutting down the fan subs effect public perception of the company in question? How many customers did they turn off by their actions? Hard to tell.
None better. Most trailers are limited at best, and reviews are other people's opions, which do not always reflect my opinion on something. Plenty of people already complain of buying anime that they felt burned by, imagine if nobody even had the option of using fansubs to prevent that situation.
Not in their minds, and their minds are the only thing that matter when it comes to taking something personally. That's why it's personal.
Then that's not a good fansubbing group. As I said, it's rude.
Unreasonable expense, and I'd still need someone to fansub it for me, since I don't speed Japanese. If I did I'd skip the fansubs and just DL the raws.
They're late, a year late. If they hadn't have interfered, the fansub would have been well over by now.
That's the corperate perspective, yes. It's not a perspective friendly to the viewers though. To the viewer it means that they're halfway through a series, often at a random stopping point, and they have to wait months or even years for the company that liscensed the series to catch up. I mean imagine if, when Viz picked up Naruto, there hadn't have been groups considerate enough to keep the fansubs running? Everyone would have had to wait 3+ years for the series to catch up to where we're at now, more if they wait for the uncensored sub releases. That's ridiculous from the consumer's perspective. I could see your point if the liscensees could get thier products out at the same pace as the fansubbers, but they don't.
I don't make use of Funimation's products (neither their DVDs, DVD packaging, subtitling, nor dubbing) except those that air on TV (which I watch live, and while I ignore the comercials, I don't shut them off or skip them). To me, Funimation produces no more than the RIAA does. To those who DO partake in their DVDs, packaging, subtitling, or dubbing, then by all means, pay for it.
Months after I've already watched them.
Why would I do that? 1. I don't own a region 1 player. 2. I don't speak Japanese, so I would still need fansubs. 3. they are prohibitively expensive, due to differences in the Japanese economy and shipping costs. 4. I only need TV quality recordings, I have no need for DVD quality recordings, not DVD extras or any of that. 5. I only watch things once. I don't need a physical medium for them any more than Japanese people who watch the shows on tv and do not buy the DVDs do. I cannot believe anyone would suggest that people such as myself should do such a thing unless they also buy a DVD of EVERY show they watch on TV. Raise of hands people, put your money were your mouth is (but watch out for papercuts, it can be sensitive down there), and buy the full DVDs, in whatever format is available, for every show you've ever watched on TV. In some cases (such as History Channel shows) you might have to contact the channel directly to get copies, but it shouldn't be too much hassle. Once you've done that, THEN you've earned the economical high ground to harrass people such as myself for watching shows off Japanese TV. |
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Insane E
Posts: 87 Location: Sweden |
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You have downloaded them and kept them. Even if you have them on CD, first or not, you have downloaded them at some point in time. I'm no expert in what formats that is used on your normal Music CD you buy in a record store, but is it MP3? If not you have something illegal created by another individual right?
Judging by a few of the reaction in this thread regarding a few of the titles in the C&D letter no one knew FUNi held the license for them. Kinda hard to stop fansubing something you had no clue someone held the license for. |
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TheShadow99
Posts: 32 |
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That works if and only if you have a place or person wanting to buy them... Also using the easiest methods of selling them (aka ebay or similiar) you aren't going to reclaim nearly any of the cost you paid for it... I have sold off alot of the DVD's I got and never watched more than a couple times because I didn't really like them... I got back about 1/3rd their retail cost (aka the cost I paid). That's just throwing away money...
Hmm.. lets hit these in order... Reviews, well that works if the reviewer and you enjoy the same things... I haven't tended to see that, even with places with user reviews and you can see hundreds of reviews for them. Traielrs... Well trailers are often hard to find and liek any good traielr normally show you the best 2 minutes of a series or movie... Hardly a good thing to judge with really... Con's... See that's where work regularly screws things up... I have 3 cons within driving distance (I couldn't hope to afford flying to one), yet all three are at extremely bad times of year for me to take time off... For 5 years that's been the case... Still yet to ever go to a Con...
Gotta say I bet they make more per year in dollars than I do... I also have to own a car, which is aluxury in Japan... But I wouldn't be able to have a job without it... Mass Transit in the US is a joke except in a handful of cities, none of which I live in... Even so that's a pretty bad argument...
Gotta say I couldn't care less about american staff interviews, which are a joke... I don't even care to guess what a 'live show report' is supposed to bring in added vlaue... Anyways... I'll take translated signs and notes over those any day, every day...
I never said they were perfect. No translation is ever perfect... I just said they did translation son things that you don't get in releases here...
The group that does Yawara also did Tsubasa Chronicles season 1 (aka 'Tsubasa' which we see Funimation now claims). In fact they had been releasing DVD copies as the Japanese DVD's of the series came out... They aren't any different than alot of others, but the same potential to release things we will never see exists in them all. And I've said more than enough now... |
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Cujo117
Posts: 3 |
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I've been looking at some of these posts and I know I'm a new member and all but I am also a fansub watcher. I'm pretty much a neutral in this arguement because I understand where both groups are coming from.
If a company license a show, they don't want it distributed so they make money...fan sub watchers get pissed because they want to keep watching. Is downloading anime illegal, if it is licensed and stated to remove from being downloaded? I think it depends on the source of recording. Either way there is always going to be illegal downloading going on no matter what. What is stopping people from buying a DVD and then uploading it on the net? Not a damn thing because people will download it, and after one person gets busted they'll delete the records of it and somebody else will repost it and avoid everying at all costs. Eventually the company will give up and let it run wild being downloaded because chances are they will still make a profit in some shape or form. There is also the chance that some of the rules of licensing do not apply in some countries that the fan subbers are located. Either way most likely the company will still make money over marketing. Is it as much as they hoped? This could be argued. With the creation of fan subbing, episodes are put out, then a company license them and makes DVDs. People get amazed and buy the DVDs. Company makes money. Any clothing, lunchboxes, stickers, etc. the company makes money. It isn't like these companies are going to go bankrupt and cause another Great Depression.
What if they don't release those previews of a series and ruin what was a good show, possibly screwing over the creator?
Lets stop the childish legal arguements here about legal rights. Taking it personally is not a legality issue. It is HUMAN NATURE. Last time I checked humans have emotions. If a guy wrecks into your car, you are going to be pissed off no matter what he says to you because after that you'll think he is making excuses. Or here is probably a better example. A carpenter falls off a scaffold and falls 30 feet, breaks his back and might die. The owner of the company comes down to the job site and looks at all the workers and says "I don't care if that guy lives or dies, I want to know how much this is going to cost me in fines." How are you going to feel? You are going to take it personally no matter what. It's human nature, not some law. This is how I look at the issue. If a company license an anime and televises it, we are technically paying for it by cable and satalite bills. But with redistibution it depends. People record straight from the TV and onto the net. That is practically free game to download then. So technically speaking, a company has no right to say its show cannot be recorded from public tv and put up for download on the internet. Even with movies because lets face it, if it is on the TV what is stopping people from recording it? But if you buy a DVD, rip it and post it, that is illegal. It all depends on the source. To give a better example lets use music. It would be illegal to buy a cd, rip it, and post it for download. Is it illegal for people to record from the radio which is free? I don't think it should be illegal but it most likely is. Pretty much I think that it should be about the source of recording. I don't think it should be illegal to record from the television since by rights, companies are putting it out to public. I also believe that it should be made illegal if you post a DVD rip on the internet because the DVD was a private purchase and not played for the public as a DVD. If this all sounds confusing and contradictory then my apologies. I'll gladly help sort this all out when and if people respond to it. |
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