Forum - View topicINTEREST: Boruto Writer Ukyō Kodachi Shares Support For LGBTQ Representation in Fiction
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Agent355
Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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Ok, I have to apologize. “Cowardly” is a very harsh term to use for creators and writers for whom confirming a relationship is out of their control—it should be reserved for stodgy, conservative, skittish production committee financiers and other decision-makers. I also should have acknowledged anime and manga (and perhaps Japanese fiction as a whole’s?) penchant for writing very subtle, subtext heavy romantic relationships. I’ve been thinking about it, and there are a great many *straight* ships in anime that are so subtle, they’re only confirmed at the very end of the story (Ed/Winry, FMA manga/Brotherhood) or never confirmed but still hinted at (Ed/Winry in the 1st FMA anime, lol, and Mustang/Hawkeye and many more). You guys are right, it is a double standard to not see subtext in queer relationships that one may see in straight ones, and the ambiguity might be a creative decision even if (or *because* ) it fuels shipping wars online.
Thank You so Much for using the term “amanormativity!!! Ever have a feeling about a social concept your whole life, struggle to define it, and then someone uses a word from academic scholarship that describes it so perfectly?! I’ve been Googling “amanormativity”, and I’m so happy that Elizabeth Blake came up with it.
Source: https://wearyourvoicemag.com/culture/romance-not-universal-necessary Considering how often those of us who lean Ace/aro feel non-romantic relationships are considered inferior/not as important as romantic ones, in fiction and in real life, perhaps it’s a blessing that so many relationships in Japanese fiction are subject to interpretation. For example, if I’m being honest, while I wouldn’t mind at all if Waver were gay and had a crush on Iskander, the idea of them in a reciprocal romantic and sexual relationship would bother me because of their age/life experience differential. I much prefer Iskander be the mentor/teacher figure and Waver’s crush remain (healthily) in-reciprocated. And that’s as valid an interpretation as “Waver/Iskander full on romance” and “Waver/Iskander completely platonic bromance” because so much is left up to the fans to fill in the blanks, on purpose. That’s not to say it wouldn’t be great when the day comes that production committees allow artists and writers full creative freedom to confirm queer romantic relationships and identities, but even when that day comes, some relationships will still be up to us. And that’s okay, too. |
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Amibite
Posts: 196 |
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I think you two are overlooking the simple fact that the vast majority of people in the world are straight. A character doesn't have to have evidence they're straight, nor does the average viewer have a high burden of proof that they are because 99% of them will be, so it's a safe assumption for the audience to make. So seeing two men hug or be emotional with one another is not going to be enough proof for the average person to assume they're gay, nor should be. That's not a double standard, that's just basic logic and statistics. |
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Alexis.Anagram
Posts: 278 Location: Mishopshno |
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I think this is really important to underscore; one reason that this kind of subtext can be tricky and even problematic is that it's, by definition, reliant upon text to frame the story so that the audience has enough grounding to understand any implications that go beyond the surface value of a narrative. It can be difficult to parse and engage in discourse surrounding non-binary, ace, poly and pan presentations (what little exists) because there is often a lack of collective comprehension as to what constitutes or substantiates these concepts as experiential human conditions. When left to subtext without proper anchoring in the story proper, they risk relating to the audience as footnotes and question marks more than statements about the characters-- this is especially true when it comes to content creators who want to do queer material because it's very of the moment and catchy, but don't necessarily have the relevant perspective to convey the highly personal and communal human contexts behind the attractive facades. This can lead to stereotyping and tokenism, with the referral to subtext doubling as a kind of cover for uncertainty or ignorance within the creative work; mocking up a noncommittal message enables unqualified authors to play both sides of the field. When it comes to queer romance, in particular, I worry that this sort of rhetoric leans into an assimilationist theory of queer culture which advocates incidental modes of representation as a method of culturally de-fanging concepts of queerness, typically argued through some variation on the byline that queer folks are "just like 'sexually normative' people" and shouldn't be thought of as socially divergent. This conceptualization carries a certain ring of acceptance from an outside-looking-in perspective: the problem is that it is always contingent upon the range of tolerance within an inherently intolerant dominant society, making self-defined queer modes of identification and expression subject to policing and erasure via arbitrary heteronormative trends which dictate who should have access to representation, and to what extent. With the proper application, both subtext and ambiguity can amplify the sense of intentionality behind works of art, and it merits evaluation on a case by case basis. With reference to Boruto, it strikes me as a peculiar topic to tackle, given that it's a continuation of a long-running series in which not only were two of the main protagonists as unsubtle as possible about their respective romantic and sexual attractions such that those qualities became fixtures of their characterization, but the series itself ended with a mass pairing off of virtually every primary and tertiary member of the ensemble who could be positioned with a suitable heterosexual match. Far from relying on subtext, Naruto went out of its way to nullify queer impressions of its world or the people who inhabit it, and it's too often that these kinds of boldfaced negations of queer readings are met with appeals to subtext that focus on what isn't present in the material rather than what is: maybe this character could be gay because they don't end up with a romantic interest, or maybe because it isn't outright stated that they aren't it could be possible. This leads to a notion of queer representation which is subtractive rather than affirmative, marking queer identities as so marginal as to be inoffensive: no one could possibly have a problem with a gay character who never talks about or acts on their feelings or sexual attractions! Ultimately, the problem with overstating the value of subtext is that it can be used as a way to justify silence: while male shonen protagonists regularly shout about how horny they are for the girls around them at the top of their lungs, and to an extent vice versa, queer characters virtually never receive that kind of voice or platform, reinforcing the assertion that queer folks are acceptable or tolerable so long as we are quiet, meek, and non-confrontational-- like women, but even less marketable. |
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Jin_Uzuki
Posts: 28 |
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These characters are not real. They don't follow any "statistics" or "logic" which is why every season has tons of anime featuring Mr Nice guy and the 20 girls (all whom happen to be virgin, btw) who want to bang him lol. Or you watch Given and all the 4 main characters are gay despite the very low odds of that that happening. |
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#HayamiLover
Posts: 799 Location: Eastern Europe |
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Are you really interested in the actual representation of LGTQ folk in the media? Or do you write about it just because it indirectly can make your favorite ships a reality? In my opinion, such an attitude is at the same level as the position of many guys who discriminate against homosexual men, but at the same time support the lesbian community, because "girl on girl is hot".
Unfortunately, this is exactly how it works. It is for this reason that it seems to me a complete misunderstanding when, for example, in the west, Yuri on ICE! It is considered an appeal to gay males, and not to heterosexual girls for whom the franchise was officially directed. @Vaisaga That is why he advocates the idea of “LGBTQ as an ordinary element”, because the modern attitude to human sexuality is such that such a character will be used either as a political statement or as pandering to the audience’s fetishes. Therefore, this becomes one of the difficult problems on the path to honest representation, since if the author does not want to be political or not to use them as fanservice, then such characters simply will not appear. @darkchibi07 In this case, their friendship or potential relationship was used as an element of the plot, which directly contradicts what he said in the tweets. @Crispy45 oh don't even talk about it. I met people who did not even try to hide in a conversation with me that some FGO characters began to interest them only because of some potential on the same sex ship. I live in a country where many media are even afraid to just mention the existence of LGBTQ, so I just get pissed off by people for whom the LGBTQ representation is just an excuse to get cute yuri or bl ship. |
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SailorTralfamadore
Posts: 499 Location: Keep Austin Weeb |
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Friend groups don't follow mathematical "odds" and what you described isn't really as unrealistic as you think. Most LGBT people I know have friend groups that are primarily comprised of other LGBT people, even when we're not trying for it. All of that is more common than friend groups that are all straight and cis except for one (1) gay token. There's also the phenomenon of the gayborhood, where gay people flock toward a particular neighborhood, which means you'll meet more LGBT people even if you're just befriending your neighbors. The "school that just happens to be entirely populated by gay people" in a lot of BL and yuri might be a stretch, but chosen friend groups that are all or mostly gay/bi really are not. Birds of a feather flock together. But even as far as "odds" go, there are probably also just more LGBT people out there than current statistics reflect, since they don't take into account people who are closeted. Some surveys of millennials and Gen Z, generations who feel less social stigma around minority orientations and genders, have found that as much as a third identify as LGBT+.
No one thinks Yuri on Ice was "made for gay men"; at most, I see people pointing out that gay men seem to like it more than a lot of gay-themed anime, which in the informal survey of "gay men I know" seems to be true. But in reality, it wasn't made "for heterosexual women" either. It was Sayo Yamamoto's passion project that wasn't really made for any particular "group" but herself. Part of why she had trouble shopping it around at first was that studios couldn't think of a group to market it to; it went against the usual "logic" for how to market sports anime like it. That it happened to be such a massive international success was not anticipated and a lot of the heavy "fujoshi" (but also general audiences!) marketing only happened after the fact. But also, if you know as much about Japanese vs. western fan culture as you claim to, you'd probably know the idea of BL fans as purely "heterosexual women" who are just into it because they get off to it is a myth. Lots of female BL fans both Japanese and western identify as non-heterosexual and always have, and creators of the genre have increasingly used it to advocate for real-world gay rights in Japan. As for the rest of your post, as a lesbian anime fan I really don't care why someone is interested in having more LGBT media representation, I'm just glad to have them on board. Especially since people have a habit of assuming LGBT people who just want to see ourselves in media are motivated by "prurient" reasons like "shipping" or "wanting to screw this character" no matter what we say. Please stop speaking "for" or "on behalf of" LGBT people when we are right here in the forum, able to advocate for ourselves. |
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