Forum - View topicANN Book Club -- Serial Experiments Lain.
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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I alluded to it on the first page, though not with your rather interesting wording. I'll get around to watching episodes three and four tomorrow and post my last thoughts for discussion for the next couple weeks. Need to balance my time carefully in the upcoming days... |
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Aromatic Grass
 Posts: 2424 Location: Raleigh, NC |
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Discussion for the first two episodes (only) can still continue tonight, but since it's slowed down a bit I'd like to go ahead and move the day up by one. (Technically, it's supposed to start the 8th. JO's other threads are starting earlier, too.)
Episodes for July [7]-14: Episode 3 -- "Psyche" Episode 4 -- "Religion" This is should finish off the first volume. We'll be picking up the pace later on. Though it's a day early, you can start watching 3 and 4 and discuss those on top of the first two. Again, I guess we'll figure out what to talk about along the way and build upon what's already been discussed (theories, etc.) and whatever. It seemed to work well the last time, at least I think so. Same rules apply. Have fun! 
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Pick up the pace? I thought if anything we'd slow down further on, as once enough information is revealed that we can actually start talking about what's going on, there'll be floods of discussion.
Ah, yes, you did. I think it is worth noting the specific imagery of the ending, though. Lain is not only naked, but in the fetal position. The mess of wires and other componants are not merely piled around her, but construct an enclosed, protected space. While going into more detail about what the symbolism here means would violate the thread's spoiler policy, first time viewers should keep the image in mind. |
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Aromatic Grass
Posts: 2424 Location: Raleigh, NC |
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I know, but we only have five weeks (I can't do a sixth), whereas the other two shows will be completed in four. And by picking up the pace, I mean only one extra episode each week. It shouldn't affect the discussion by too much, I think. This thread's kind of an experiment anyway... 
@everyone: You keep hinting at stuff that's driving me crazy! |
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3889 Location: New York state. |
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I know of some things to point out from these two episodes that will be worth paying close attention to in later episodes: First off, the Psyche chip. Taro explained to Lain how the chip eliminated system limitations from being a factor in wandering the Wired. Lain would explain to her father in a later chat how she could now freely wander the Wired and have the desire to merge herself into the Wired by her own free will. The Psyche chip and the Accela drug seem to be tools to allow one to be caught between reality and the Wired hinting at later events that will take place with the series. Then, there's Yasuo, Lain's father. When he is first shown the Psyche chip by Lain, he said he didn't know what the Psyche chip was. Notice how his expression changed from happy to indifferent when Lain asks her about the chip in episode 3. Then he admits to his wife that Lain's behavior has gotten weird in the next episode and lectures her later in the episode how the Wired was just a means of communication for people. When Lain disagrees with Yasuo saying it was possible since she modified it, Yasuo admits that she used the Psyche chip and that his daughter was not herself. There seems to be more going on with Yasuo than what is being shown right now. Lastly there's Lain. When episode 4 starts off, Lain is shown to be more confident and sociable. A hint of this other side to Lain came from her comment to the Accela drugee at the end of episode 2. At this point, exposure to the Wired has completely changed her, especially when she talks to Yasuo and snaps at the Men in Black when they were spying on her at the end of the episode, a contrast to when she ran off from their car earlier on. These are just some ideas I thought I would throw out. Feel free to discuss some other details that I haven't mentioned. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18220 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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'Bout time I got in on this, I think.
I have often described Serial Experiment Lain (hereafter SEL) to other people as an example of "techno-surrealism," and the more you watch of it, the more I think that description proves accurate. It is one of the very few animated productions out there (anime or otherwise) where the look of the series is as much an integral part of the story as the writing itself. Granted, there's a certain roughness to the art and various common animation shortcuts taken, but little that's shown visually in the series lacks significance. This starts to become especially true with episodes 3 and 4, which formally tip off the whole "reality vs. The Wired" conflict that becomes a key element of the rest of the series; Lain's own comments on the matter in episode 4 are very telling. The way the series starts to visually isolate Lain in the classroom was, I thought, always very significant, too. I have also often thought of the Lain seen in the first episode or two as autistic, as her behavior and speech patterns resemble those of some autistic kids I've dealt with in the past. With episode 4, though, you can see that start to change. In a very real sense Lain is starting to wake up during these two episodes (as can be seen in the way she starts to smile and talk differently), but to what state? For that you'll have to wait and see. This is also where the series starts to get really weird, as these two episodes bring up so many mysterious elements. Who is the voice that Lain starts hearing? Who are the "men in black" with the headpieces responsible for the red dots? Why do Lain's parents seem to be acting so strangely? Why does Lain pop up in other places? What do The Knights have to do with all of this? And what's with this sudden surge in tech know-how? Most of these elements are intrinsically linked, but for now you're just getting a delicious taste of the Big Picture. Some have speculated on a split-personality situation (a classic online/offline dichotomy), and doubtless that impression will only strengthen as these episodes pass on. Things newbies should keep a particular eye out for: the relationship Alice (disgracefully still Arisu in the subs) tries to form with Lain becomes critically important later on, and some of what the random voices heard from the computer in episode 3 have to say later prove to be very significant. Also, while I don't know about later releases, the earlier singles of this first DVD do have an Easter Egg on them; just click Up from the Play option on the main menu and you should see some part of the series title highlighted. Click on that for bonus content. (I believe all four of the original DVDs have this.) |
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LiuXuande
 Posts: 201 Location: Chicago |
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Woah, just in time.
I've been thinking of adding Lain to my collection for quite a while now, and just got v1. My previous attempt at watching it was watching the series all broken up and semi-out of order when it was being aired (forget if it was TechTV or CN that aired it...) and while I liked it watching it then, I never watched it to completion and don't remember much of the plot. Tagging so I can come back once I watch the first 4 eps again. BTW I'm really digging this ANN Book Club idea ^^ |
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HellKorn
Posts: 1669 Location: Columbus, OH |
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One of my favorite parts of these two episodes might be the portrayal of unreliable perspectives. The two males we see freaking out in episode four are prime examples of this. Their addiction to the game causes them visions of reality to distort, resulting in the death of themselves or others (the girl's body wrapped in the laundry on the roof is one of the more sad moments of the series).
Just to expand on a few of things that Ggultra2764 and Key mention: - Lain's family. The reactions from each individual member to Lain's development are rather telling. Yasuo believes that what Lain is doing is perfectly normal and Miho supports this, although the former seems to have misgivings about the extent of his daughter's action. (Why? It's obvious from before that there's a difference in attitude between the mother and father in regards to Lain. That will be expanded upon later.) Mika seems the be the only one against Lain's increasing oddities -- her role is never made explicitly clear, per se, although there are some powerful hints in the upcoming episodes at to what that is. - The Men in Black. The Knights. The black market. Somewhat reminiscent of a sort of conspiratorial case, eh? It's certainly evident that there's something far larger behind the scenes than what we've been shown. (I'll also extend my above mention concerning Lain's family to be rather interesting: Mika is disgusted with having the Men in Black loitering around her home, while Miho seems completely ambivalent about the issue.) All of this will be made gradually clear. It's going to be particularly interesting to see first-time viewers reactions of episode nine... - Lain is even more of an anomaly in these episodes; from her more sociable and upbeat persona to her curiosity involving a multitude of things related to the Wired. The final scene of episode four is even more bizarre: Lain's growing anger at the Men in Black's prescence causes the headpiece belonging to the shorter one to explode. - "Lain, you are not alone." A voice tells her this in episode three on the train. Who could be talking to her? All in due time... - I like the subtle touches of humor the series had. It'll pop up more in the next set of episodes, but JJ's realization that Lain isn't there, along with the pan-out is amusing. |
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Aromatic Grass
Posts: 2424 Location: Raleigh, NC |
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Watched 3 and 4 today. Though I'll be posting my thoughts tomorrow (because I'd like to think everything through), I wanted to let others know that I haven't forgotten about this thread. Thanks for the pointers; they really helped me pay attention to and catch some pretty interesting things.
But oh my god the ending to each episode was really surprising!  (More thoughts later!)
I can understand why Murasakisuishou (Hako) would love this one. She builds computers and would probably give anything to have Mary Elizabeth McGlynn's voice on her computer, Gabriela. |
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Murasakisuishou
 Posts: 1469 Location: NE Ohio |
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Actually, Gabby's really more of a Luci Christian or Kari Wahlgren, or maybe even Lisa Ortiz's Jun voice minus the faux-British accent <3 If I were to have Mary Elizabeth McGlynn voice one of my computers, I'd want it to be the one I named after her :P Aaaaanyway, I've been really busy lately, but I'm gonna watch volume 1 tonight and get all caught up with you guys so I can join in. I've seen the series enough that I can figure out what y'all are talking about, but I've never really watched it with a critical eye, and I want to have it fresh in my memory. EDIT: All right, just finished. Man, I'd forgotten how much Lain's room ends up looking like mine! Okay, I don't have quite that many machines all running at once, but the ones I do have take up pretty much every available surface, and my desks are littered with busted hard drives and sound cards and what have you. I'm even using an old Win95 PC as a nightstand :P That aside, I want to talk about Lain's parents a little and how they interact. There's a very key moment with Miho in episode 3; she and Yasuo are in the living room area together when Mika walks over and asks if they've noticed how strangely Lain is behaving. Yasuo says it's completely normal, and Mika rather exasperatedly asks "Have you even SEEN her lately?" Miho tells her to mind her tone, but in a flat, disinterested way, not as you'd expect a mother genuinely warning her child to. After Mika leaves, Miho says to Yasuo "Is that right?" The first few times I saw this, I thought she was just reacting to something in the newspaper that Yasuo has open or whatever, but now I'm wondering if she was asking him whether or not she had behaved like a proper mom. At this point you're already starting to get the sense that something is up with Yasuo and that he's guiding Lain further into the Wired; is Miho just a doll he keeps around for appearances? A generic mama-drone to help disguise whatever is really going on there? Discuss. Also, a few words about the dub. The first time I saw Lain, my mom had rented it for me through Netflix and then put it on for the whole family assuming it was something we could watch and enjoy together; we got through two episodes with my parents asked me what was going on through the entire thing, as if I knew just because it was an anime. Since I was with the family I was watching it dubbed, so the dub became the version I was used to and the version I've watched in all subsequent viewings. At first I thought "Wow, this is a really, really bad dub." The lines are stilted, the acting is mechanical, and the few shreds of emotion seem forced. Later on, after I got to know the anime industry a little better and heard some genuine bad dubs, I happened to look up the credits on ANN and found out that it was a ZRO Limit effort, which is usually synonymous with "awesome". After another rewatch I realized that yes, this dub is robotic and soulless, but that's completely on purpose, and in fact it makes this an amazing dub. I'll say more about this later, because I don't want to spoil anything, but I'd like to add (for those of you watching in English, although it might be the same in Japanese; I can't tell since I don't speak the language fluently) that it's interesting to keep track of who sounds like a machine and who speaks and reacts like an actual human being. Oh yeah, and I thought of a fun drinking game to play with the dub; throw back a shot for every cast member you recognize who's credited under a pseudonym. Take a whole drink if you recognize a voice from Stand Alone Complex without having to look at the cast list of either series. Extra special brownie points are awarded if, without looking at the credits, you recognize someone who was in Stand Alone Complex and they were either a one-off character or a tachikoma ^_^v |
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Aromatic Grass
Posts: 2424 Location: Raleigh, NC |
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Quit bragging!  
Yeah, I've noticed even more of Lain's family over 3 and 4, and her parents are starting to creep me out. Mika seems the most down-to-Earth and "normal" of them all. Regarding what Ggultra said about Yasuo's reaction to Lain showing him the Psyche chip (I was wondering what the heck that thing was at first; it had a strange effect on Lain), her dad definitely has something to hide. He seemed to ignore it at first and then became more concerned about it later on. And Miho is pretty apathetic and lifeless. (@Hako: Yeah, I totally didn't understand what was meant by the "Is that right?" line, but your theory makes sense to me.) As for the dub, I'm actually watching this one both sub and dub for the heck of it, so I'll take what you said about robotic voices (vs. human ones) to heart. Lain really has changed a lot in a short amount of time. It's hard to believe that the Wired would change her so much especially in what seemed like just a few moments. The Psyche chip must have a lot to do with it, though, especially when seeing the reactions of her dad and those kids at the club. But anyway, it's almost as though Alice is the only one who truly cares about this change in Lain. Mika isn't too convincing, and Lain's other friends don't even act like it's that big a deal. Weird stuff is starting to happen; Lain's hearing voices and seeing things (like in the classroom). This guy named JJ who knows Lain, obviously the "other" Lain. Those men in black are kinda sketch. Lain freaks out and even blows off one of the devices they're wearing. Hope to find out what they're after. Oh, and then PHANTOMa. Apparently "the Knights" have something to do with this game and these kids committing suicide. Lain appeared out of nowhere, floating and glowing white, and the guy playing the game thought she was chasing him. I was wondering if that was really her or not at first. The Wired sure is it's own interesting little world. Just a tiny detail, but the Wired is often represented by eerie rock music (and also voices). It sorta gives off negative/evil(ish) vibes. |
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Ggultra2764
Subscriber Posts: 3889 Location: New York state. |
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I'm guessing it's not the Psyche chip that's changed Lain, it has to be her exposure to the Wired. Chisa's e-mail has exposed her to a more complex problem that's taking place in the Wired (which include the Phantoma incident and the Knights) which has her more curious than she's ever been before. For whatever reason, Lain is slowly making it her obligation to look into these problems and this will become more apparent in later episodes. And you bring up a good point about Alice. The girl seems to show the most concern over Lain's well being compared to her friends and think of the girl's well-being better compared to Lain's family. Alice and Lain's relationship will develop more later as the series progresses.
Remember how I said that I had a different theory revolving around the wild Lain besides it being another personality of the normal Lain? I'm thinking that the wild Lain and the Knights have a connection to each other. Both seem to be causing mischief of some kind in both the real world and the Wired. I can elaborate more on this theory in later episode discussions. The real world and Wired also seem to be blurring together briefly seeing as Lain could quickly pop in, speak to JJ, and just vanish. The same thing with that kid who accidentally kills the young girl. Not to mention the presence of the wild Lain at Cyberia when Lain had never been to the nightclub before that time. As for the voices Lain hears, they represent people who are using the Wired to communicate with each other. Lain seems capable of hearing what people are saying or typing to each other which wouldn't be heard by others. The same goes for the mystery man who called out to Lain in the train. Just who is this mystery man? That will be revealed later in the series. Lain doesn't seem to be an ordinary girl, which is becoming increasingly apparent as she is exposed to the Wired. This seems to be what is concerning Lain's family. |
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Aromatic Grass
Posts: 2424 Location: Raleigh, NC |
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What I meant when I said that was that the Psyche chip allowed her to do more in the Wired (considering what she said to her dad), because she became more "obsessed" after it was sent to her. But I may be remembering things wrong. You're right about her being more curious/obligated, though. Seems pretty realistic to me when you get really into something, but from the way it sounds there's obviously a higher meaning behind her doing this.
At the moment I wouldn't have ever considered them connected, but what you say here is pretty convincing. Looking forward to later, then. I need to really drill it into my head that the line between the real world and the Wired is a little blurry because I totally wasn't paying attention to that idea when that guy accidentally killed the girl. Though it was plainly obvious throughout that scene, especially at the end. However, I did notice it in the classroom, when JJ turned to find Lain not there, etc. |
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BrothersElric
 Posts: 1996 |
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Alright, so after forgetting to watch the episodes on Tuesday night (darn it!
) I went ahead and watched them both last night.
I'm kind of surprised no one has talked about the whole sequence at the beginning of episode 3 yet, about how she kept on checking the rooms in her house and there was no one home. And then of course all of a sudden the next morning there's her mom, cooking breakfast. Very strange...... I also find something interesting in how she told her Navi "good night" that night and it answered back to her "good night Lain." At first I didn't really think anything of it, like it was just a special feature her Navi came with or something, but then she had her very interesting surprised reaction to it. Couldn't really figure out if any of this meant anything or not, or if we have to wait until latter to figure it out or something. But I'm going to keep note of it all. Her family definitely seems to be acting very strange though, or at least her parents are anyways. I'm wondering if that, plus Lain's behavior recently and the Men in Black have anything to do with each other, like the Men in Black are the ones conducting these experiments on Lain under her father's order, her mom is supposed to keep quiet about it, Mika doesn't have a clue what's going on, and Lain's behavior is a result as the experiments or something. Or maybe I shouldn't be jumping to conclusions like this. But that's my speculation at least for now anyways. We'll just have to wait and see if I'm right.
About Lain's behavior. I've been trying to figure out if this is due to the assumption that this plus some of these abilities she seems to possess are because of her exposure to the wired/Psyche chip or if it's due to the line between the wired and reality becoming as blurred as it's becoming, so now she's starting to take on her wired personality because of it. Or maybe both. Maybe the line becoming blurred is due to the Psyche Chip, or due to what Lain is doing to it or something like that. Which I think this goes back to the experiments theory. I wonder if the Knights are somehow linked to the Men in Black/Lain's parents or something, and they were the ones who sent Lain the Psyche chip. And then of course, there's the Accela drug, which could have had a similar purpose, only for that guy. What also intrigues me, and in a way also kind of disturbs me, is the point that Alice makes about all of Lain's other classmates in how they don't seem to have any other reaction to all these people dying other than it being some form of gossip, and their reason for such being that "it's almost as if it wasn't even real." Which I think that way of thinking is probably the main reason why the line is so blurred in the first place, hence that terribly tragic scene with the girl getting killed.
Yeah, that's kind of what I figured myself. I noticed there were a few voices in the mix of those other ones though that there was one that kept on saying "why haven't you come yet," some of which speaking directly to Lain. Could that be Chisa I wonder, getting ignored in this huge sea of other voices? I'm also wondering if any of these other voices are also either talking to Lain, or about her. Of course I know the obvious "you are not alone" one, that I'll have to keep in mind.
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Aromatic Grass
Posts: 2424 Location: Raleigh, NC |
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Oh dang! That's something I took note of and completely forgot about it when I actually posted. Right now I can't really make anything of it other than it being another strange occurrence. Perhaps the MIB had something to do with it, or the Wired, or something else? As for the interaction between Lain and her computer, Lain shows a certain amount of respect for her Navi and often receives the same from the seemingly "alive" other end (the Wired). Probably reinforces the idea that she's not just another kid who's into computers.
My thoughts are that the Knights and the MIB might be on opposing sides, because one seems to be helping her and the other may be trying to catch/stop her. I'm not sure how much either may be connected to the family. I'm actually more interested in the Knights at the moment and hope we learn more in the next episode. And I agree with you about the apathy of Lain's classmates in relation to all those suicides, as well as seeing the addict shoot those two girls in Cyberia. At least the latter one should have had more of an affect on them. |
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