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DRosencraft wrote:

Can you simultaneously overestimate and underestimate a group? In any event, I feel like that's the case with Gundam. The US fanbase isn't just looking for mindless robot v. robot action.
In the end, Gundam's problem of appeal in the US will be tied to its vocal, hardcore, base. Because the creators of Gundam are constantly going to be in the box of trying to appease that base by going back to the UC universe. So even if they get another hit like Wing in the states, or Seed, they'll follow up with something that is either trying to be a lot like something in UC, or is from UC, which will raise cognizance of UC and reintroduce all the problems that go along with that.

Again, Robotech gets you in with a familiar narrative, but Gundam is MADE and perpetuated by and for obsessive Japanese mecha fans who want to admire the details of the explosions, series fans caught in the multi-series history arc, and model fans who micro-analyze the robot designs.
In what other country could we have a separate anime series (Gundam Build Fighters) within the subculture of building the models, about characters who build the models?

It's one of the answers to many mysteries about why other Japanese uber-trends (maid cafes, glasses fetishes) don't catch on over here:
Even our geekdom is secretly too well-adjusted, and OUR obsessed niche fans aren't THEIR obsessed niche fans. Shocked

Zin5ki wrote:

Jose Cruz wrote:

I personally think that mecha are silly. Rolling Eyes

And this, my friends, is why the franchise will ever languish so long as Gundam 0080 is difficult to legally obtain. Such a show is ever the connoisseurs' nomination for the elusive category of "Gundam-unlike-Gundam that is better than most Gundam-unlike-Gundam".

I watched that one, it was really good stuff. A classic for a reason and it did not even feel like a giant robot show. I also watched the original Gundam series and I found it really good except for the mecha designs which look like plastic toys and the mecha battles. I like the mechanical designs in EVA, which are very un-mecha like.

My favorite mecha series are:

EVA
RahXephon
Gurren Lagann

Really great stuff that's not based on the mecha themselves.

What exactly are "fringe fans"? .

0nsen wrote:

What exactly are "fringe fans"? .

Anyone who is not quite as obsessed by some aspect of fandom as the person characterizing them as "fringe". It could refer to almost anyone depending on who is making the decision. Kind of a silly distinction.

Jose Cruz wrote:

My favorite mecha series are:

EVA
RahXephon
Gurren Lagann

Really great stuff that's not based on the mecha themselves.

As I said earlier, if you're extending that definition to something like Gurren Lagann, you could extend it to things all the way back to Mazinger Z.

Alan45 wrote:

0nsen wrote:

What exactly are "fringe fans"? .

Anyone who is not quite as obsessed by some aspect of fandom as the person characterizing them as "fringe". It could refer to almost anyone depending on who is making the decision. Kind of a silly distinction.

Actually, it's the opposite--
Like the unnecessary fringe that hangs off the extreme outside edge of a carpet, for those trying to grasp the English idiom.

Watching anime, for example, might be in the mainstream center, but only watching BL for reasons of your own particular personally-involved fandom tastes might be considered farther out on the "fringe".

Justin wrote:

..you can only try so many times before the brand itself is soiled: the name makes people go "oh, that. I don't like that." I hope we aren't at that point with Gundam.

I was at that point in the late '80's and even stayed away from the classic E7 for a couple of years because it seemed to be an insufferable mash of Gundam with surfers. RahXephon was tolerable because it wasn't mecha-heavy. Sorry, but I don't get how these shows keep anybody's interest so no mystery why they haven't caught on in the US.

Combined double posts. --willag

I always thought one of the core contradictions of Gundam was the constant harping on the "war is terrible" message while simultaneously saying " but isn't it awesome?" Part of the appeal to many Gundam fans is the design of the mechs and the spectacle of the battles. Gundam has a way of fetishizing the Gundam, Zakus, and other mechs. While Gundam Thunderbolt is rooted in the U.C., I think it is the best new offering. The story is character-driven and the writing isn't as heavy-handed with the boring political platitudes. It also cleverly subverts the role of the federation protagonist by making him an amoral jerk. Too bad it's only a few 18 minute episodes. Not sure if Iron Blooded Orphans will be popular. It has majoring pacing problems and it also falls into the bad habit of long boring political discussions.

----

Jose Cruz wrote:

I watched that one, it was really good stuff. A classic for a reason and it did not even feel like a giant robot show. I also watched the original Gundam series and I found it really good except for the mecha designs which look like plastic toys and the mecha battles. I like the mechanical designs in EVA, which are very un-mecha like.

My favorite mecha series are:

EVA
RahXephon
Gurren Lagann

Really great stuff that's not based on the mecha themselves.

Gundam 0080 is an excellent example of story following characters and not the other way around. Strong writing that gives both the Zeon and Federation characters motivation without vilifying either side. The battles are brilliantly animated and staged with real emotional weight. Hopefully Rightstuf will put this on bluray so more people will have a chance to see it.

Ajc228 wrote:

I always thought one of the core contradictions of Gundam was the constant harping on the "war is terrible" message while simultaneously saying " but isn't it awesome?"

There is no contradiction, unless you subscribe to the idea that any war film is fetishing war.
The core message of Gundam is that war is terrible and brings nothing but pain and misery to those involved. The main characters suffer emotionally in Gundam. No one, not one is gung-ho lets massacre the other side willy nilly. Amuro, Judau, Camille, Uso etc... all have existential crisis because of this.
Of course you can like the mecha there is nothing wrong with it. It doesn't detract from the main message and it certainly is not an endorsement of how war is a cool thing.

This is one of the reasons why IBO is such a shit Gundam show. For the first time in the history of the franchise Bandai/Sunrise have decided to create a main character that "likes" war. He is a full blown psycopath, showing no remorse for cold blood killings. Now this is fetishing war and misery. Perhaps this is the main reason why this particular Gundam series resonates so well with the american audience.

BBC - Culture - Is there any such thing as an 'anti-war film'?

Quote:

“There’s no such thing as an anti-war film,” is a quote often attributed to the late French filmmaker François Truffaut. There are different ways to interpret this remark but it’s widely agreed that Truffaut was suggesting that movies will inevitably glorify combat when they portray the adventure and thrill of conflict – and the camaraderie between soldiers.

...

Despite all the challenges facing filmmakers there is no shortage of directors who’ve dedicated their energies to making anti-war films. Scholars maintain certain key characteristics must be in place for an anti-war film to be effective.

For Dennis Rothermel, Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at California State University, who has extensively researched anti-war films, they must give a nuanced view of mortal combat. “The random infliction of violent death, abject terror,” as well as “heinousness as a norm of behavior,” are listed by him as among the qualities necessary for an anti-war film – along with a sense of balance and context. For Rothermel, All Quiet on the Western Front, Paths of Glory, Full Metal Jacket and The Thin Red Line are films that satisfy these criteria.

“Like any good documentary it has to show both sides,” says New York University film professor Sheril Antonio, who teaches a class on war films. For her questions need to be asked: “Is war just a national tragedy for the victor and the people we lost, or is war terrible for everybody? If it shows both sides then I think you’re getting somewhere.”

...

Clearly all filmmakers are at the mercy of the audience when it comes to how their films will be interpreted. “The last author of the film is the audience – at the cost of the director’s intentions,” says Sheril Antonio. From this it follows that somebody who enjoys viewing the spectacle of war may not be so inclined to see the darker, ugly side of combat in an anti-war film. “Any person who glorifies violence and shooting and killing people may only see that aspect of the film and celebrate that aspect of the film, they may not appreciate it as a cautionary tale,” she says.

Important parts bolded for emphasis. Suffice to say that there are several reasons why the Gundam franchise has a prominent place in the Anime & Manga folder of the "Do Not Do This Cool Thing" page on TV Tropes (which actually used to be called "Truffaut was Right"). Glorification of war and violence is not a uniquely American phenomenon, despite what some non-Americans may believe. Gundam's lasted as long as it has because the Japanese also enjoy the spectacle of war in their own way. Any pacifistic message falls flat on its face when, 0080 aside, the franchise tends to lack any real nuance.

I've tried to watch various Gundam series, and with Iron-Blooded Orphans on Toonami, I will try it with this one too. The biggest issues I have that prevent me from enjoying them are the continuity lockout, the tendency for Gundam protagonists to be moody and pretty bitter (and thus unlikable to me), but most of all, how most Gundam series seem to be very caught up within their politics and obsess over equipment and machinery.

While I do enjoy having politics in my series, I think what bugs me about Gundam politics is that they tend to simply happen, or they're mentioned in passing. That is, the personal side of politics does not seem to play that big a factor as much as the larger-scale social side. The reason why I love stories like Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, Superman: Red Son, and Metal Gear Solid IV is because the human element is front and center--either you get to see why decision-makers make those decisions, or the characters behave in their political environments or react to political changes in interesting and believable ways. In addition, I have never carried much interest in machines. I have zero interest in cars, for instance, except to drive them to get places, so of course whenever they start talking about how these mobile suits and such work, I get very bored. (It happens far too often in novels. Unless that gun's inner workings are going to be plot-important later, every single part of it, I don't care about how it works. Just get to the point!)

While I'm probably wrong about it, and I hope that I'm wrong, the Gundam series, from what I can piece out of it, would appeal to people who are naturally inclined to learn about history and machines but are pretty disconnected from people at large (except fellow fans). The series also seems to prioritize its existing fans by upping the ante with each series, making each increasingly complicated and convoluted the way a video game series might make each sequel harder than the last to please people who beat the previous ones.

princess passa passa wrote:

The fandom is the most divided one I have ever interacted with.

This year, I made the mistake of wading the Gundam forums to looking for advice and all I got was shouting over which Gundam is considered elite and must watch or absolute trash SMH. There will be absolute vitriol for SEED and then someone's head vein showing (figuratively) when showering ZETA with praises.

All fandoms become like that once what they're a fan of has been around for long enough and the fandombecomes big enough to have schisms like that. It's the logical thing, after all: If they're fans, they are passionate about it, which means they have strong unwavering opinions that will invariably clash with other fans' strong unwavering opinions.

Lemonchest wrote:

The only real memory of watching Gundam Wing as a kid on CN is thinking "why do these miserable kids keep interrupting the robot fights?" Now, having watched a bit more of what the franchise & genre have to offer, my thoughts remain pretty much the same.

Me, my school schedule meant I could not watch every episode of Gundam Wing and had to skip two days per week. I was completely confused as to why everyone's allegiances kept changing for no discernable reason. I had actually forgotten about those kids interrupting the robot fights though. I remember that now!

angelmcazares wrote:

The first show aired in 1979, and it deals with a war between humans in space (and sometimes in Earth). The story from the first show continued in the form of series (Gundam Z, Gundam ZZ, Gundam Victory), OVA's (the 08th MS Team, Gundam 0080, Gundam 0083, Unicorn) and movies (Char's Counterattack, F-91). All this long story is known as the Universal Century Timeline.

Yikes, those names are so confusing. No wonder I cannot hold any conversation with a Gundam fan trying to explain Gundam to me. I always thought Z and ZZ were the same series, and the same with 0080 and 0083 (and any other series with "00" in its name). Not helping was that one of them wrote a fanfic called 06th MS Team, which he'd mix in with his explanations, and I confused 08th with that.

HeeroTX wrote:

I think this is the actual core problem with selling Gundam in the states. Gundam is a franchise of giant robots, but most of the shows are built around ham-fistedly POUNDING the message "war is terrible, humanity should never do it". So instead of "exciting" action with giant robots, you get a lot of hemming & hawing about "WTF are we doing?!? and WHY?!?" But not at the "micro" level of "why is this CHARACTER doing it" but more at the craneshot level of "this nation hates that nation, and is run by a bunch of scumbags".

Normally, this would mean "the leaders are scumbags, I must remove them with my idealism" (like Code Geass), but instead its often "I must fight to protect my friends, but fighting is wrong and completely unjustifiable, WHAT DO I DO?!?" Often emphasized with a metaphorical (or sometimes LITERAL) nuclear bomb, just to remind how terrible THAT was.

So the Gundam franchise is one stuck in Japanese middle school philosphical brooding angst? Sounds rather neotenous.

Vaisaga wrote:

I think this alone is a good question, one I had been meaning to ask Answerman but never got around to it.

Americans love their glorfied war machines and their sleek cars, so why don't they like giant robots, essentially the combination of the two? Megas XLR gets cancelled after one season and Pacific Rim didn't do that great over here either. Transformers still makes a ton of money but that mostly runs on nostalgia.

Even among the anime fandom I have a hard time finding mecha fans outside of specialty forums. Even here on ANN mecha shows don't get much buzz (Aldnoah did but only because of Gen) and only like 3 people get mecha stuff I use in the quote and character guessing games.

Megas XLR got canceled because there was a shake-up in management at Cartoon Network, and the new people in charge wanted to wipe the slate clean to replace them with shows that they greenlit. Megas XLR got caught up in that cleansing. There have been giant-robot shows made in North America that worked besides Transformers. Super Robot Monkey Team Hyperforce GO! ran for the full 65 episodes and had enough fan demand for a petition to continue it (especially as it ended on a cliffhanger), but Disney did not budge in the 65-episode rule. Big Guy and Rusty was well-acclaimed, though it too got cut short as it fell victim to timeslot shuffling. Titan Maximum is currently airing off-and-on on Adult Swim Comedy, though I have no idea how that one's doing. Real Steel is getting a sequel (though, like with Pacific Rim, it couldn't make back its budget domestically).

I think all in all, however, Americans do not take giant robots seriously. The machines that Americans (and British, if Top Gear's enduring success is any indication) are interested in are real ones, or at least ones that can conceivably exist. Even in science fiction, technology is built in strictly practical terms, so I think Americans largely consider mecha to be too impractical (with Transformers getting the justification that they are actually lifeforms). Humanoid robots in modern fiction are always meant to imitate humans to some degree; without that, I think a lot of Americans ask, "Why did they design them that way?"

Cptn_Taylor wrote:

It's like sports anime. Same thing. Americans don't take nicely to sports anime, they want to practice sports not watch it on tv.
As for mecha, most series coming out of Japan because of its history are always predicated on the "war is bad" theme. For a country like the US that idolizes its military and thinks that all solutions to world problems come from bombing the shit out of people it's understandable why a mecha series that heralds the message that "war is bad" and "peace at all costs" isn't well liked. Different cultures, different historical paths. That is why Gundam as long as it is based on pacifism will never become a cultural phenomenon in the US. It will stay niche. Some chapters more liked than others, but never achieving that kind of universal fandom that it has enjoyed in Japan.

The United States produces plenty of sports-related content that's very successful. Most obvious are the major league and college league games. Sports bars rely entirely on fans (and non-fans) watching the games. It also produces a lot of sports-related fiction. Successful movies I can think of include Friday Night Lights, Caddyshack, The Big Lebowski, Angels in the Outfield, The Mighty Ducks, Raging Bull, The Wrestler, and Space Jam. (I deliberately avoided releating sports, as there are a TON of ones about American football, baseball, boxing, basketball, and golf.) Until the Comics Code Authority destroyed the diversity of American comics, sports was a major genre with series like Strange Sportys Stories.

Rather, I think the failure of sports anime and manga in the United States lies with the anime and manga fandom. There are a lot of possibilities as to why, but I noticed very little interest in sports in general among anime and manga fans in the United States, especially younger fans whom series like Eyeshield 21 and Haikyu!! should appeal to.

As for stories that condemn war, there are WAY more popular stories set in a war environment that condemn war found in movies and TV than stories that glorify it. Among movies, I can think of Dr. Strangelove, Apocalypse Now, WarGames, Schindler's List, Saving Private Ryan, Starship Troopers (which is ironic considering the pro-war message of the novel it's based on), and Tropic Thunder. Literature examples I can think of are Lord of the Rings, Ender's Game, The Diary of Anne Frank, and The Butter Battle Book. For comics, there's Spy vs. Spy and Kingdom Come. Video games are the one medium where pro-war messages are dominant; the only standout aversions made by western developers that come to mind are Team Fortress 2 and Spec Ops: The Line.

A pattern in these stories are that they tend to be about the Holocaust, the Cold War, the Vietnam War, or Desert Storm, or a metaphor thereof, and I think that's no coincidence: The United States had been in a series of socially unpopular wars through the 20th century, and so the country has a pretty strong anti-war faction.

Then again, on the literature front, you have authors like Tom Clancy and Clive Cussler who consistently would write war-is-glorious novels, and they were/are prolific too.

Cptn_Taylor wrote:

This is one of the reasons why IBO is such a shit Gundam show. For the first time in the history of the franchise Bandai/Sunrise have decided to create a main character that "likes" war. He is a full blown psycopath, showing no remorse for cold blood killings. Now this is fetishing war and misery. Perhaps this is the main reason why this particular Gundam series resonates so well with the american audience.

If he is depicted as a psychopath, then I'd guess he is depicted very unflatteringly, and the "war is wrong" message would continue to hold, with the protagonist being an example of someone you don't want to be like.

I'm probably considered more of a casual anime fan, and so maybe I might be more of the audience that the people behind Gundam are missing out on - this is my perspective anyway. I have only watched a little Gundam, and I've never stuck with it. I find the Gundam shows to usually be too boring, overly sentimental, and extremely formulaic. I'm not against space operas. I really enjoyed Battle Star Galactica. But that show did a great job of balancing everything - it had great characters with a lot of depth, strong symbolism and themes plus intriguing subplots, and plenty of high octane action, among other things. I haven't really seen all those things balanced particularly well in Gundam, and like I said I think the formulaic nature of it (since they are heavily invested in selling merchandise) makes it less appealing for me to invest a bunch of time.

There are probably a lot of reasons why "Gundam" isn't more successful over here even though,a lot of it is set in this country. But,I think one of the earlier posters here hit the nail on the head. It's too dense. You seem to need a scorecard to keep up with what's going on,it's very hard to keep up with it. I don't buy that it's an older show. That's not the problem I have with it. The show may be action-packed,but's it's so laborious in trying to find out what's going on that it's not worth the time or effort to watch it. Maybe some streamlining of their plots might make it a little easier for Western viewers to understand.

Last edited by dark13 on Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:35 pm; edited 3 times in total

dark13 wrote:

Sahmbahdeh wrote:

"To get the mainstream fans to show up, the show has to be about the characters. Mecha can be in the background, but can't be too prominent."

I find this to be my exact mentality. The only mecha shows I've been able to get into (Code Geass, Gurren Lagann, Full Metal Panic) had the mechas more as secondary elements, with the human drama first and foremost.

I 100% agree with you and People seem to always forget Gundam has always been about the characters ( look at 0079 as a good example ) there is a reason why characters like Char and Amuro are popular, these are not guys who just fight each other because " fights are cool" they fight because , they have different Ideology and what they believe in , Char became one of the most popular characters because of his character, the fucker has an Origin movie, how did you think that happen if it wasn't for his character and backstory ? IBO is taking what made 0079 kick ass and is doing what Gundam HAS ALWAYS BEEN DOING, A war story about the People who fight in those wars, this isn't a Michael bay movie with mindless action, its Mobile suit Gundam damn it, so let Gundam do the stuff its known for
@CoreSignal I could be wrong but you and I seem to be in the same line of thinking when it comes to Gundm. Wink

Gonna leave this post here and highlight the point you guys are missing,also @Cptn_Taylor, God forbid Gundam is not allowed to try new things right ? IBO is lot like Metal Gear solid, and pretty sure Konami of the old days had an anti war message, in all there games, so what if IBO has MC that doesn't fit the standards of the Gundam of norm, this is a more realistic Gundam, If some of you guys think child soldiers are people who are not afraid to pull the trigger then some of you guys got to wake up from your close minded dream, yes War is wrong But IBO, shows what war dose to people, rather then show how wrong it is, which is something very fresh, if we keep doing the same standard of Gundam of a pacifist main character, not only will it get old, but nobody will take the anti war message seriously and that will be a big problem for sunrise.

here are few Child soldier examples that happen in the real world

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/uganda/10621792/Konys-child-soldiers-When-you-kill-for-the-first-time-you-change.html

http://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/missing-peace/The%20psychological%20impact%20of%20child%20soldiering%20-%20Schauer.pdf

http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/social-issues/child-soldiers/6684.aspx ( note this one says Revenge is also used as a motivator to kill, and it also gives a description on how kids like mikazuki handle things, here I'll highlight. Other children may see such acts as surreal, as if they occurred in a dream world, and they may feel quite split off or dissociated from them. This splitting process is a normal self-protective reaction to the strain induced by the enormous gap between children’s previous morals and the atrocity they have been forced to commit)

Sounds a lot like what our Main characters is like right ?

From what I remember of Gravion it did have things front and centre other than mecha, if you get what I mean...

And, obligatory mention of Gigantic Formula because no-one else has, which is sad.

penguintruth wrote:

It's no big mystery, really. People don't want to watch shows older than they are unless they watched them growing up. If they're past the nostalgic cutoff- that is, if the show didn't debut on TV during their formative years- they're less likely to give an older show, a show with dated animation and art, a chance.

Wyvern wrote:

[I wonder if perhaps the barrier is in the sheer size of the Gundam franchise. That's really intimidating, and it's also confusing to keep track of which shows are self-contained and which ones are part of the ever-expanding Universal Century canon (especially since some shows, like Turn A and G-Reca, are sort of both.)

These pretty much sum up my experience. Some variation of Seed was around when I was downloading fansubs, but it seemed like a juggernaut roaring past. Then, when they started streaming lots of Gundam a few years back I watched the very first episode and just didn't get into it.