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zenbud



Joined: 02 Jan 2019
Posts: 25
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:26 pm Reply with quote
That first response is quite laughable. Just make what you think it's good? Don't do market research? How this guy thinks that a company works?
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kiminobokuwa



Joined: 18 Sep 2015
Posts: 537
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:31 pm Reply with quote
zenbud wrote:
That first response is quite laughable. Just make what you think it's good? Don't do market research? How this guy thinks that a company works?


I agree with uou. The first one was a bad answer. You HAVE to do market research in order to figure out what the market is starving for. The other thing I sould agree with is not making otaku centered anime. They shoudl venture out and try something ahainst the common norm of different genres. Also agree with the saturation of the market, it's crazy. There's so much anime that it's overwhelming.
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chronos02



Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 189
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:32 pm Reply with quote
Afaik, the main problem is how accounting and project planning in terms of costs/profits is done. Most studios are relatively small, and a single anime is usually a joint project between many of them, with a main studio being in charge, and the other studios being their support (mostly under contract). Due to their small size, most fo them are unable to hire a good accountant and planner for the projects and the studio itself, so cost management and planning for the use of resources is not very well done, and in most cases they bleed themselves out, others simply are unable to plan far ahead and things simply get out of control, and a small portion probably has a problem related to direction (as in, what's the studio's aim), and so they lose themselves branching out to many different things and eventually breaking appart.
This isn't exclusive to anime studios, it's a plague for most small and medium sized companies (between 5 and 50 members), however, anime studios suffer more from it because of the nature of their job.

This, however, is most likely not the only cause, the increasing number of shows every season also increases the competition for a relatively small market in which the otaku are the main money source with the BD volume and box sales, and with Japan being a country with an inverse demographic curve, it translates into a stagnant market that barely grows, and is most likely shrinking, even if most otaku have more money now than before, since they grow old and have better paying jobs (it's my guess given the situation). Oh, and all those tweets about "there are too many shows!" are dumb, that's how the market works, if something sells, many people will make it, and then those who suck or the market doesn't want, will die out, simple.

Also, this apparently single income source brings us to yet ANOTHER problem with the anime industry, which is VERY SLOWLY getting patchworked (not fixed, keep that in mind). Anime gets the money back from the BD sales (do not confuse this with a brand, like, say, K-ON. The anime gets its money back from BD sales, not merch sales or manga sales, safe cases like anime original work), even when the international market WANTS to pay for it, and that money is instead given to distributors licencing the anime for X or Y country, often giving a fraction of the sales at most, besides the initial licencing fee. This is a HUGE loss for the production companies in Japan, but as said before, they have no time and focus their efforts in producing, not maximizing profits (which is good, but at the same time, bad), and in turns, this affects the small studios since they get paid less, and because of their subpar management of resources, ends up worse.

In the end, what we're about to witness, is a purge of studios, a period of anime stagnation, followed by another period of quality works, to eventually end up where we were a few years ago, to finally end up here again. This is an ouroboros, and the only way to break the cycle, is to sanitize the state of animation studios and how the production commitees see the international market, all without losing the Japanese filter on how they see the world, after all, we like anime because it is made the way it is.

Personally, I don't see the Japanese fixing things, it's all going to explode at some point and we will all be sad because of the many losses, and then some of the studios that survive will MAYBE notice where the problem was, and fix it. Not holding my breath though.
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FireChick



Joined: 26 Mar 2006
Posts: 1447
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:04 pm Reply with quote
Here's an idea from an English anime fan: Focus less on giant boobs, boob grabbing, overpowered protags, panty shots, and ecchi. Make compelling, well thought out stories again! Anime doesn't need tits and butts in order to be considered good!
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 1593
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:05 pm Reply with quote
While opening up international markets to allow for easier streams of revenue back to the Japanese side of things might help, I think that's addressing a symptom rather than the source. The answer seems to be that the current anime model is unsustainable; the domestic market isn't big enough to support the industry, and widening the market doesn't seem like it'd help the animation industry as a whole as more shows are clearly not leading to more money for the studios themselves.

I honestly think we're looking at a bubble here, one that's going to end in a lot of studios shuttering and/or reducing their output. But I think the only real, lasting solution is going to require a lot of work on Japan's part to improve working conditions for their animators, which if KyoAni is the only model for, might mean the best path for the anime industry would be a high-budget, low output system.
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DerekL1963
Space CowboySpace Cowboy


Joined: 14 Jan 2015
Posts: 679
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:29 pm Reply with quote
FireChick wrote:
Here's an idea from an English anime fan: Focus less on giant boobs, boob grabbing, overpowered protags, panty shots, and ecchi. Make compelling, well thought out stories again! Anime doesn't need tits and butts in order to be considered good!


Have you actually watched any anime in the... Well, I've only watched streaming anime for five years but it's pretty clear you haven't watched any in at least that long. (Not that those kinds of anime have dominated in decades - if ever.) You have pretty much no clue of what's out there today if you think that's what's needed for an anime to be considered good.
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 3637
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:33 pm Reply with quote
FireChick wrote:
Here's an idea from an English anime fan: Focus less on giant boobs, boob grabbing, overpowered protags, panty shots, and ecchi. Make compelling, well thought out stories again! Anime doesn't need tits and butts in order to be considered good!

There's already plenty of mainstream casual and niche non-ecchi shows. In fact there are less and less of male oriented extreme fanservicy shows every year in proportion to everything else it seems because of "global trends". Just ignore what you don't like and you'll still have more than enough to watch for you.

whiskeyii wrote:
While opening up international markets to allow for easier streams of revenue back to the Japanese side of things might help, I think that's addressing a symptom rather than the source. The answer seems to be that the current anime model is unsustainable; the domestic market isn't big enough to support the industry, and widening the market doesn't seem like it'd help the animation industry as a whole as more shows are clearly not leading to more money for the studios themselves.

I honestly think we're looking at a bubble here, one that's going to end in a lot of studios shuttering and/or reducing their output. But I think the only real, lasting solution is going to require a lot of work on Japan's part to improve working conditions for their animators, which if KyoAni is the only model for, might mean the best path for the anime industry would be a high-budget, low output system.

that could be a solution but one that will lead to the equivalent of the American animation industry output we have today: only certain type of very widely acceptable shows get made. Forget about the niche shows of any type, and you can pretty much kill entire genres too. One good thing about the vast amount of anime we have is that it's literally spread across ALL possible types of niches, all genres, all audiences. I honestly don't know how you'd address it globally or if there's even a universal solution to it--I'm thinking ultimately it won't be a one-size-fits-all, because if it were, say goodbye to the diversity we have now.


Last edited by configspace on Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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omoikane



Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 386
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:34 pm Reply with quote
There is definitely a struggle between the vast output put on the industry every quarter that leads to the high workload on animators. But at the same time, the industry needs to make money, and it's about the number of new IP you pitch, less so the quality. There are a lot of well-meaning animation projects over the years that don't pan out or become smash hits, that caters to Western prudes or mainstream tastes. On the flip side low-brow/quality works can still garner fans and become cult favs. People can complain about male gaze fanservice or "pandering" but the problem is that those are reliable way to get some sales--or rather, there is no formula for a smash hit, so you end up with the status quo. Who determines which projects get greenlit and which studio to work with? Plus with the labor squeeze, every talented production line is maxed, so there are only so many possible "good" anime every year to begin with. What do you do with the rest of the industry? Make things that cater to a specific group and to hell with everyone else who is bombarded with the marketing. Shooting for the moon is both the way anime becomes popular and the reason why it's not sustainable. It's how we got Kemono Friends and K-ON and every other hit in between.

I think the real focus has to be more practical, like higher wages mandated by union or law. It's not going to solve all the problems but it would be a start.
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Hoppy800



Joined: 09 Aug 2013
Posts: 2551
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:35 pm Reply with quote
FireChick wrote:
Here's an idea from an English anime fan: Focus less on giant boobs, boob grabbing, overpowered protags, panty shots, and ecchi. Make compelling, well thought out stories again! Anime doesn't need tits and butts in order to be considered good!


That does not sell in Japan anymore outside of movies. Remember the anime industry focuses on Japan and their Otaku first.
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MoonPhase1



Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 264
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:23 pm Reply with quote
FireChick wrote:
Here's an idea from an English anime fan: Focus less on giant boobs, boob grabbing, overpowered protags, panty shots, and ecchi. Make compelling, well thought out stories again! Anime doesn't need tits and butts in order to be considered good!


That kind of stuff is more for keeping the fan’s attention on the show. But is also possible to have that and with a good story or at least have the series still be enjoyable to watch.
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zenbud



Joined: 02 Jan 2019
Posts: 25
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:28 pm Reply with quote
chronos02 wrote:
Afaik, the main problem is how accounting and project planning in terms of costs/profits is done. Most studios are relatively small, and a single anime is usually a joint project between many of them, with a main studio being in charge, and the other studios being their support (mostly under contract). Due to their small size, most fo them are unable to hire a good accountant and planner for the projects and the studio itself, so cost management and planning for the use of resources is not very well done, and in most cases they bleed themselves out, others simply are unable to plan far ahead and things simply get out of control, and a small portion probably has a problem related to direction (as in, what's the studio's aim), and so they lose themselves branching out to many different things and eventually breaking appart.
This isn't exclusive to anime studios, it's a plague for most small and medium sized companies (between 5 and 50 members), however, anime studios suffer more from it because of the nature of their job.

This, however, is most likely not the only cause, the increasing number of shows every season also increases the competition for a relatively small market in which the otaku are the main money source with the BD volume and box sales, and with Japan being a country with an inverse demographic curve, it translates into a stagnant market that barely grows, and is most likely shrinking, even if most otaku have more money now than before, since they grow old and have better paying jobs (it's my guess given the situation). Oh, and all those tweets about "there are too many shows!" are dumb, that's how the market works, if something sells, many people will make it, and then those who suck or the market doesn't want, will die out, simple.

Also, this apparently single income source brings us to yet ANOTHER problem with the anime industry, which is VERY SLOWLY getting patchworked (not fixed, keep that in mind). Anime gets the money back from the BD sales (do not confuse this with a brand, like, say, K-ON. The anime gets its money back from BD sales, not merch sales or manga sales, safe cases like anime original work), even when the international market WANTS to pay for it, and that money is instead given to distributors licencing the anime for X or Y country, often giving a fraction of the sales at most, besides the initial licencing fee. This is a HUGE loss for the production companies in Japan, but as said before, they have no time and focus their efforts in producing, not maximizing profits (which is good, but at the same time, bad), and in turns, this affects the small studios since they get paid less, and because of their subpar management of resources, ends up worse.

In the end, what we're about to witness, is a purge of studios, a period of anime stagnation, followed by another period of quality works, to eventually end up where we were a few years ago, to finally end up here again. This is an ouroboros, and the only way to break the cycle, is to sanitize the state of animation studios and how the production commitees see the international market, all without losing the Japanese filter on how they see the world, after all, we like anime because it is made the way it is.

Personally, I don't see the Japanese fixing things, it's all going to explode at some point and we will all be sad because of the many losses, and then some of the studios that survive will MAYBE notice where the problem was, and fix it. Not holding my breath though.


Anime have more than one source of income be it manga, Light Novel, games, merchandise, toys, music or whatever more. And considering that the majority of anime are based on manga, LN or games, they are pretty much cross media for the companies involved so they want their markets to have a boost, much like monetization like Aniplex wanting BD, Kodansha wanting manga sales, Lantis wanting CD sales and such. It depends on what company is on the committee and what is their main source of income. The company with more funding on a project is the company that more will need their source of income to be completed. For example, if Aniplex is the company with more funding in a project, this anime will need to recoup it's sales on BD but that wouldn't be true for a anime with Shueisha leading the committee as the manga sales getting a boost would be the biggest thing for the company.
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zenbud



Joined: 02 Jan 2019
Posts: 25
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:30 pm Reply with quote
Hoppy800 wrote:
FireChick wrote:
Here's an idea from an English anime fan: Focus less on giant boobs, boob grabbing, overpowered protags, panty shots, and ecchi. Make compelling, well thought out stories again! Anime doesn't need tits and butts in order to be considered good!


That does not sell in Japan anymore outside of movies. Remember the anime industry focuses on Japan and their Otaku first.


What he's saying don't sell that well either outside of some exceptions. The story is different on manga and LN but on anime that isn't true. Either way, even measuring anime is quite difficult considering that we only have BD and the companies don't count only it, as we know by Kakegurui, Date a Live and many anime out there that got new seasons but their BD sold badly.
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TexZero



Joined: 25 Oct 2017
Posts: 203
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:46 pm Reply with quote
Props to that guy for geniunely being invested in the issue. Even if it is just on twitter responding to that many people and getting that much input no matter how good or bad it may be takes some real fortitude.
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Sango chan



Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 178
Location: In the demon slayers Village
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:08 pm Reply with quote
It is rather sad that there is rarely any anime that doesn't focus on the Fanservice of the chest and butt. It's grown so much over the past 14 years that I have been an anime fan that I, as a girl, have became pretty much immune to it. It now takes a very big extreme amount of shove in your face Chest and butt fanservice that would make me drop a show. That's the only way to watch anime today pretty much. ignore the fanservice aspects and just enjoy the show if you enjoy the characters and their personalities.

It's gotten to the point that I am surprised as hell that an anime comes out that isn't a Chest and butt anime. you should've seen my reaction to Little witch academia. lol. I was surprised and happy. I thought that anime was cute and really hope it gets a home video release so that I can buy it.

It's rare that I watch new anime in a season that isn't a sequal to a series that i have already watched. the newest show I had watched was zombieland saga. I enjoyed it. Lets head for a season 2. lol.

but hey. I pretty much go with the flow on these things now a days.
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TheAnimeRevolutionizer



Joined: 03 Nov 2017
Posts: 306
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:52 pm Reply with quote
kiminobokuwa wrote:
zenbud wrote:
That first response is quite laughable. Just make what you think it's good? Don't do market research? How this guy thinks that a company works?


I agree with uou. The first one was a bad answer. You HAVE to do market research in order to figure out what the market is starving for. The other thing I sould agree with is not making otaku centered anime. They shoudl venture out and try something ahainst the common norm of different genres. Also agree with the saturation of the market, it's crazy. There's so much anime that it's overwhelming.


The main problem lies in how this is but one facet of Japan's economic situation. Ever since the 2008 Global Recession, Japan has backed itself in a corner of wanting its late 1980s days of industry monopoly prosperity and high global standing AND not take risks. Like, I'm sorry, but you can't chase two hares and expect to get both, there, Japan. And that's a proverb from your nation.

Regarding anime and its creation, I think it's a mess throughout the entire world. If you ask me, Anime was a global phenomenon that really should have gotten not just fans but artists and authors and creators inspired to want to create their own anime. But then again, I know of the factors. There's a lot more blocking the way than just the recession. We have the unyielding tyrannical agenda of national cultural norms, and that's only the tip of the iceberg, and even so for a time called the Information Age and a place we know of called the United States of America.

The short answer? It's going to take more than just money and catering to the the crowd. Anime is a creative industry, and creativity demands imagination as well as integrity, sincerity, and nothing the likes which you can predict nor see with market speculation. It also has to be the result of the era we live in and something that accepts it yet challenges its worst aspects so we may go onto the future and its unknown depths. I think one of the biggest thing anime has been missing into the new millennium and is something that isn't just unique to Japan is to truly face reality and dare to do something about it. That's something I saw a lot of in the works past, and I can see why that is "otaku pandering". But I can also say that's not something unique to Otaku as well.
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