Forum - View topicShelf Life - Angels, Devils, and Goddesses
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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What? This doesn't make any sense. Shelf Life is a review column. Does she need to put THIS IS A REVIEW somewhere in there in order for you to understand that it's a review column? Are you confusing "synopsis" with "review"? Because they aren't the same thing. Usually a review will include a synopsis, but sometimes they don't. In our full-length reviews, we keep the synopsis separate. You seem to think that a "review" is when someone simply describes what happens on a DVD, and that their opinion is something else. That isn't what a review is. Colonel Wolfe, if you're such an expert on what reviews should be, then why is it that after 8 years' experience writing and editing reviews professionally, I completely disagree with everything you're saying? There is "oversight". I edit the Shelf Life column. I think you think Anime News Network is run by a bunch of amateurs and fanboys, and your constant "You should do things like Anime on DVD does!!" is insulting and tiresome. We have a full-time professional staff. Bamboo is a salaried employee and has years and years of experience doing what she does. You wandering in and telling us we're all wrong and that your 6 year old could do better is ridiculous and really, really insulting. You don't seem to know what 'bias' is, nor do you even seem to know what a 'review' is, and yet you hold yourself up as some kind of expert on the subject, who's come here to teach a staff of seasoned professionals how to do our jobs. And the problem is, you're completely wrong. You're just spewing all this nonsense, using words you heard elsewhere and don't understand to condemn something that you disagree with, in an attempt to prove that you're somehow "objectively" right on a matter that boils down to a simple subjective difference of opinion. It's tiresome and old and I don't know why I even bother reading what you say. You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about and are utterly, completely wrong on all counts. So I'm not going to waste my time answering your nonsense "criticisms" any further. |
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Colonel Wolfe
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Well, it's obvious that there seems to be a problem. The fact that I pointed out an obvious flaw in the way ANN does their reviews seems to have stuck a very raw nerve. The fact that a majority of review sites include both a synopsis (consisting of the first half of the review) and then ending the review with comments by the reviewer (rounding out the end of the review) seems to be sorely lacking.
I can't believe that (judging from your comments (that you would attack a member posting his or her views on the subject) shows just how petty the process has become. Rather than correct the problem you resort to underhandled courtyard brawling more suited for bullies. I'm simply stating my opinion that ANN's reviews are flawed with the way they are currently posted and judging from what I read by other posters, some of the others agree with me. The Shelf Life column is flawed. Rather than say "we know it's flawed and maybe it could stand to be updated" or to take what I said with a little seriousness you wouldn't resort to a personal attack like that ... Oh, and I've heard from a multitude of other anime fans from various online communities who have said they aren't impressed with the way that reviews are presented here on the site. The direct quote was that ANN's reviews were "one-sided and biased towards anime shows of the action genre." I would think that if there was a problem with the way I worded my problem with the reviews process that one wouldn't resort to "open forum attacks." I simply stated a concern that's echoed by many of your visitors and obviously by your registered members. The review on the ADV Films release of Ah My Goddess was blantantly slanted against the genre and the reviewer didn't offer up the other side of the coin ... it was side against the release, which just proves my point. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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It's obnoxious because you keep bringing up the same things over and over again and don't actually listen to what anyone has to say. You just keep saying BIAS BIAS BIAS over and over and over again. You're not hitting a raw nerve, you're being pushy and irritating, and you're insulting my staff. I probably shouldn't even respond, but I am, so that's that.
I don't understand how that's more valid than what we do here. It's just a different way of accomplishing the exact same thing. That they include the synopsis in the review doesn't change anything at all. It's purely a cosmetic difference.
Here we go, the ol "I can be as insulting, ridiculous and degrading as I like but if you respond to it and don't treat me like I'm royalty, then you're a big meanie and don't know how to do your job" thing that happens all the time on the internet. I don't owe you anything. You attacked the column, the critic and the site, and I'm responding in kind. Deal with it.
"Correct the problem"? I don't agree with you that there is one. Are you suggesting that I have to do what you say and that I absolutely have to agree with you? Arrogance! Responding to you in a frank and honest way is not "underhanded courtyard bullying". You're hiding behind that as an excuse. You're the one throwing stones here.
It isn't a personal attack to tell you you're wrong. You are wrong and you don't really seem to know what you're talking about. What you're saying is that when you point out some criticism, we HAVE to agree and we also HAVE to change the way we do things, even if we don't agree with you at all. The vast majority of comments about Shelf Life are positive. We get a few complainers. I'm not in the business of just listening to and complying with every single complaint we get. That's ludicrous. That you're acting like some kind of victim because instead of just letting you throw stones at us I stood up and threw some back is, to be honest, funny.
Uh oh, some anonymous, unnamed people on "various online communities" don't like the way we do things? Whoops, better try and please everyone all of the time, since that's totally possible! People are always going to complain, but the fact of the matter is, you can find people who complain about how reviews are written on EVERY site out there. I've seen people whine about Anime on DVD's reviews, about Anime Jump's reviews - all of 'em. When you're in the business of publishing opinion, you can never make anyone happy. And yes, I've heard those "Anime News Network's reviews are biased toward the action genre". Nobody's ever been able to prove it. We've had knock-down, drag-out arguments here with pages and pages of evidence posted to the contrary. Nobody's ever been able to prove that the site is biased in any way. And this is the crux of the matter - claiming bias is a very serious charge and it requires that you have evidence to back it up. You can't just waltz in, say "you're biased", not provide any evidence and then expect me to say "OK" and just make whatever changes you think I should. Which is what you seem to expect me to do. It's very easy to throw the word "bias" around every time you disagree with something, and people do it because they think it makes them appear as though they're objectively right about a subjective issue. But it's rarely ever the case, and again, nobody has ever been able to prove that we're biased against any genre. Something tells me you can't do it, either.
You seem to think that it's a critic's job to offer both sides of the issue. That is not a critic's job. At all. And if you knew anything about real criticism, you'd understand that. Go read Roger Ebert. Or AO Scott. Go read ANY major respected critic and tell me that when they review something, they basically present it as an argument with themselves wherein they counter everything they didn't like with how it might be approached by someone who would. There is no point in saying "I didn't like this but you might and here's why, I didn't like this character but I could be wrong etc". Unless you have a seriously flawed way of approaching a review, you already understand that that doesn't need to be said. A review is a personal opinion, presented with evidence and reasoning. You're not expressing a concern by "many" of our visitors. You're echoing something that a very small and occasionally vocal minority says whenever we publish a review that's even somewhat negative. Every single time I publish a negative review we get a handful of people - usually one or two, and it's always the same couple of folks - who run into the forums and bash us for being "biased". And it's always - ALWAYS - because they disagree with the review. I never get complaints like that when we post positive reviews, ever. Nobody calls us "biased" when one of our critics liked something - only when the complainer liked the show and the critic didn't. To me, that says a lot more about the people complaining than the reviews themselves. And spare me your "how dare you attack me!" routine. I haven't said anything remotely offensive to you at all. Be a man and argue your case without resorting to playing victim in an attempt to win sympathy. Sheesh. |
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Colonel Wolfe
Posts: 370 |
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Well, intelligence just went out through the window ... ANN has a responsibility that if they are going to hide behind insults and offer up their opinions on the premise that they are fans then it's misleading. The fact that you found fault with my statement without addressing the issue ...
If you're going to offer up reviews, then fine. Don't hide behind the facade that you're fans then ... because the reviews process is one sided. My original statement was that the review was flawed and offered up a very negative viewpoint regarding a review and that ANN's reviews were obviously one sided. No reasonable reply was given and my concerns were only backed up by other members here who shared the same viewpoint. ANN has have a responsibility to the anime community to offer unbiased reviews and maybe the editors should keep their personal opinions out of the reviews process. It is entirely possibly to write a review (which other visitors can read and make an opinion) without slamming the series by comparing it to other shows.
What? I take it that the reviewer thinks they know what's going on in the mind of an anime fan to make that observation for the vast majority? It's an insult.
What the reviewer also didn't remark on is that the television series is a direct adaptation of the manga series and one doesn't need to watch the first season to understand what's going on in the second season to which these DVD's are attested to. Obviously the reviewer is trying to confound and confuse the reader into believing that this series isn't worth investing in ... |
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Steventheeunuch
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Note: as you seem to have a problem with what actually defines a review, I'll offer a terrible internet dictionary series of defenitions for you to look at
rugh Do as you will. Read my tripe or not.
He found fault with your statement because you're addressing the issue incorrectly- you're stuck in the mind that a review has to encompass every opinion and please every side, take everyones feelings in to consideration and not be "offensive", which, as far as I can tell, anyone who takes offense at someone posting a review of a show saying "I don't like it for these and these reasons" really needs to get a grip on reality.
By what coin is it one-sided? Maybe if the screener or promo copy was a special cut of the content which removed appealing features of the show, then I could see some kind of plausibility to it being one sided, but the reviewer, the person writing the review, watched the show. They wrote why they did, or did not, like the show. A review, when it comes to those things, sets out to prove why they did or did not like the thing. Of course, when it comes to subjective things like Anime, opinions will differ and vary. AOD's reviews are different because they're also reviewing things such as video and audio quality, things that are- how best to put this- constant. Crap video quality will always be crap video quality, regardless of what one thinks. Crap Anime is, on the other hand, the trash of one man, and the treasure of another.
What would constitute a reasonable reply, though? ANN completely submitting to your whims? In what way are they flawed? Because they give a personal opinion (IE a review) on something that is, by the way of enjoyment, a completely subjective thing? What, ultimatly, do you want out of arguing this point?
As Zac has said, go and read any other established, respected critic of anything. I'm sorry to say but the collected experience of Zac, ANN, and those who don't actually agree with you, far outweigh your own perceptions. Your opinion on what a review is isn't nessecerally wrong, but it is not a golden rule for all to follow, nor is it's ANN's responsibility to do anything. Claiming they have one is ridiculous self entitlement, considering you are not contributing a single thing aside from scathing and silly remarks.
How the heck did you interpret that?
Yes, because you need to keep on playing the victim. ANN is, as far as I know, obligated to do utterly nothing. It's own way of doing things is just that, and if you don't like it, I suggest you go and crawl back in to your hole in the wall at AOD forums. |
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ANN_Bamboo
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3904 Location: CO |
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ANN generally publishes two reviews of every title-- a short review in Shelf Life, and a full-length review by one of our review staff. Sometimes the opinions in the two reviews coincide, sometimes they don't, but by offering you two reviews of a title, it already gives you the choice of reading two different opinions about something.
I'm not sure why you're bothered by what I wrote. If you're an AMG fan, then there's no way you could've not known that the first season was out. And even if you didn't realize it was out until you saw ADV's release of the second season, you'd think, "Oh hey, the TV series is out! I'm going to check out the first season!" People who buy second seasons of stuff are generally people who were fans of the first season. For any title, be it AMG, or 24, or Lost, or Heroes, or any show that lasts multiple seasons. But if you walk into a store never having seen the first season of Heroes, you probably aren't going to think, "I've never seen the first season, but I'm going to buy the second season!" I don't have t be able to read minds to know that most consumers aren't going to do that. It's the same with anime. If you're a diehard AMG fan, you probably know that the first season has already been released and you probably already bought it. Because if you'd never seen the first season, as an average consumer, you probably wouldn't decide to forsake it and watch the second season instead. I mean, hey, maybe you're the kind of dude who walks into Best Buy, sees a new show you've never seen before, and decides to start at Season 4. Some people do that. Though I guess since you've already seen the entire AMG TV series on fansub, and liked it enough to watch it to completion, then you probably bought all of the first season, and are planning to buy the 7th volume, right? I shouldn't have to point out that we're running an AMG skin right now. If I had any ulterior motive at all, it'd be to encourage everyone to love and buy the 2nd season, in order to support our ad buyers. |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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I realize you were talking to colonel wolfe, but I felt I had to comment on this. People do not often argue with "positive" reviews because most people WILL look at a review as an opinion piece and fans feel they should "counter" a negative opinion with a more positive one in order to "help" a favored series. In the case of a series that gets a positive review, most people who DON'T like it can shrug and say "not one that I liked" and move on and not really care who else jumps on. But if you see threads about these things when certain shows pop-up for discussion (see: Justin's current "Buried Treasure" discussion and comments about Evangelion) people will have no issue debunking opinions about a favored show, they often simply choose not to argue with a review because "why bother". If you WANT people to detract from reviews for favored series, I can certainly jump on board there. Tenchi3 got a favorable review from Bamboo and I thought the first 2 episodes (didn't watch beyond that) were TERRIBLE since they didn't advance the existing plot and instead introduced even MORE new characters to (at the time) seemingly NO POINT whatsoever. The early episodes of Tenchi3 seem (to me) to be more "treading water" and just thworing something out just to do it rather than adding any meaningful or useful information to the viewer. In a way, like Bamboo felt about AMG2, I found Tenchi3 to be "boring", and if you haven't seen the previous OVAs you may as well go watch when Tenchi was GOOD (Tenchi OVAs1) then continue through to the current if you want to take it that far. And if you watch it all in one set like that, it will probably hold your attention decently enough, since the story starts to meander in Tenchi2 but I watched that all the way through anyway and my dedication no doubt suffered from the many year hiatus. I'm all TOO willing to debunk the lavish critical praise for Cowboy Bebop too, especially since I KNOW I am in the minority on that one. 
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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OK, but all of this is subjective opinion stuff. It's just a matter of a difference of opinion. If people came in and said "I disagree with the review, and here's why" that's TOTALLY FINE. Coming in and telling us we're "biased" is suggesting that there is a serious systemic problem in the way we do things and that all of Bamboo's reviews are invalid because she's biased. Do you understand now why disagreeing with something and accusing a journalist of being biased are two completely seperate things? I don't get why people think 'bias' is a synonym for 'disagreement'. Not liking something doesn't mean you're biased against it. Bamboo likes Oh My Goddess but wasn't thrilled with the TV show. That's it. There's no bias, she didn't approach the review intending to deter people from buying it because she has some sinister motive to hate on the show. Arguing with a review is NOT THE SAME THING as accusing a journalist - and even the entire site - of being biased. |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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Bias is NOT a synonym for "disagreement" no, but it IS (or can be) a synonym for "predisposed". Some have made the contention that Bamboo is "biased" against RomCom anime, and I never supported that claim. However, I DID say that I felt she was biased (or predisposed) AGAINST AMG2, probably because of AMG1 (which was also not necessarily of the same caliber of the OVAs), and that is fine. Where I take exception with the review (altho as noted, I was content to stay out of it to start, but joined in when other people took issue but didn't seem to be doing it CORRECTLY) is how I feel AMG2 was treated unfairly. In that it was reviewed AS "more of the TV series" BUT ... not. IE. the review speaks as if someone will grab AMG2 as an independent show (without having seen AMG1) and treated the difficulties of picking up the show in the middle (not having seen the introductions) as a "flaw" of the show (the viewer will be confused, so "blah"). Why I quoted the Tenchi3 review is I feel this was not a consistent handling. If Tenchi3 had read as "you'll be confused if you haven't seen the originals, so .. blah" then I'd say "ok, that's how she handles 'sequel' series, fair enough. But it wasn't. Tenchi3 was "this is AWESOME go watch the originals too" and AMG2 is "this is boring, and confusing, skip it". *I* don't think there's an institutional bias, I just like AMG and am not fond of an unfavorable review, but have seen enough of them on my favorites to just accept it. But if others are going to dispute it, I would rather make a clear case on their behalf and make note of how a personal favorite was handled, then see the disagreement totally dismissed out of hand simply because others were not presenting the case in a decent manner. For the record, I agree with Bamboo that the OVAs are probably the best OMG anime, but I dispute thinking that the movie is better than the TV series. In my opinion the movie plot is hackneyed and OOC, and generally inconsistent, along with fitting with Bamboo's complaint for AMG2 of lacking the setup of the OVAs. Basically, even though it is not numbered as such, AMG2 vol 1 is AMG tv series vol 7 and should be treated as such IMO. Will Genshiken2 or Honey&Clover2 or any other series like that be treated as independent of series one? So if they cimply continue the story assuming the viewer has fore-knowledge will it be viewed as confusing and difficult to jump in on? Or will it be like Tenchi, a worthy extension of an earlier series that people knew and loved? |
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zrdb
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To me ANN seems to be sitting on top of their pedestal passing judgement on all others who don't agree with their high and mighty opinions which are passed on to the masses as "reviews". I'll go on to say that while OMG season 2 had its share of ups and downs, there were still a lot more ups and it is worth watching if for no other reason that even in its worse moments it was still better than 99% of the other series out there in their best moments
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Mohawk52
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16939 |
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Alright this is getting ridiculous. all this fuss and commotion over a single damn review? Good lord. Colonel Wolfe you need to just chill the hell out. You don't go into someone else's house and start insulting their family. In essence that what Bamboo/Sakechan is, part of the ANN family. How would you feel if I went into your house and said your mother is stupid because she doesn't add red peppers to her meatloaf? Get over it. I am a die hard OMG fan and I didn't agree with the review all that much. However, I'm not running my mouth here like some bigot and insulting the people and staff because OF ONE SINGLE REVIEW. Just cause I don't agree with her review I'm not going to insult Sakechan over it. You truly are arrogant and selfish if you expect them to change this site, or how they do things, because you don't like it. If you have legitimate issues then be decent and Pm someone with them. Don't run your mouth on the threads as if you have a right to do so and we should all bow down to you because you said we should. If you're soooooo upset over the review then don't pay attention to it and move on with your life. I mean seriously, it's just a review and this is simply a website. If you don't like them and how this place is run simply don't go here. How hard is that?
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zrdb
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Boy-talk about a trip down memory lane. Here we are 9 years later and things have really changed-I still like anime but I can't believe that I wrote all those nasty acerbic comments back then. Is OMG still the best series ever? Hell no, too much anime is released in a year to even keep up with it and there's too much new stuff to watch. Rather than tear down someone else's opinion a a particular series it simply comes down to "You like that and I don't-so what?" No need to argue about it and get into a flame war.
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