Forum - View topic
ANN Article on Anime Junkies


Goto page Previous    Next

Anime News Network Forum Index -> General -> Anime
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Philou255



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 11:28 am Reply with quote
All I can say is what I've seen.
Here in France since cable connections and dsl has become available, most "fans" download everything and buy but a few DVDs.
I know I work in an anime shop and it's very clear to me that fansubbing is not good at all for the anime market because not only the DVDs don't sell well but other goods such as Artbooks or garage kits also sell less.
Ok I hear those in the back that'll say 'well you're making less profite so what ?" ... What you need to understand is that yes we do make a profite out of it, so does the distributors, so does the shipment compagny and every little person between you and the product you're looking for; but since when has it been easy to import goods ? Remeber this is not a local product ... it needs lots of work to be sold to europe or the US market. Japanese live by the same economic rules we do. If they don't make enough money out of their exports why would they work so hard since the japanese market is far enough for them and way easier.
Understand this : FANSUBBING DOESN 'T HELP THE ANIME COMMUNITY !
Don't tell me that in the US people will buy the DVDs of a serie they watched on fansub because for most of them it's not the case.
Fansubbing is just stealling and making it free doesn't change anything to that. And please I won't quote that stupid post saying that fansub is like a commercial for an anime and that if you didn't see the commercial you wouldn't have bought the anime that's the most stupid thing I've heard ... with all those magazines available and now even newtype is in english, the web and all the resources we have, don't tell me you don't know what's happenning in Japan Anime smile;

I am a software builder myself and I find this whole "web is free" thing quite annoying... There are laws and we should all obey them that's all. I don't see the point in saying "oh yes fansubs are illegal but there is this understanding between ...". There is no understanding ... It's illigal or legal but can't be both. If you want to "release" it for free anywhere in the world you still have to buy the licence. So I think that the only way of making fansubs legal would be for them to buy the licences officially (maybe with the help of all the anime comunity let's dream a bit). And that's the only way. The Anime market is not going so well as some of you think and it's not growing enough to be intresting for investors or business people ... I think that Anime outside Japan is still fragile and that it's still living only because of the efforts of the real fans who understand why paying 30 $ for 5 episodes is not a rip off.

Sorry I'm a bit harsh but I've been an anime fan for so long and I really feel sad when I read people trying to justify something illigal that to my sense does more harm then good. Time will speak for itself but the anime community of nowadays is so far away from todays -_-
It's almost as if there was no joy in discovering an anime...
All day long I hear in my shop "oh I've seen this in DivX too bad it's 13 eps only). If that's what you guys are aiming for then ok let it be but I don't feel it's the right way to see things -_-
Maybe americans are more diciplined I woulnd't know but one thing I know for sure is that french people if they can get something on the web for free they won't buy it if it gets released. Crying or Very sad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Grauw



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 11
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 11:36 am Reply with quote
Tiresias wrote:
Quote:
Er... don't most, if not all, DVD's have one of those nice notes which say you can't watch it in a group, club, etc? In what way is this somehow more 'legal' than watching a licensed anime series in either fansub or dvdrip format?


That's only if you charge admission specifically for the purpose of viewing that title.


Er, I think not. My dvd's say, 'The copyright proprietor has licensed this DVD (including its soundtrack) for private home use only. All other rights are reserved. The definition of private home use excludes the use of this DVD at locations such as clubs, hospitals, coaches, schools, hotels, oil rigs (???)(LOL) and prisons. Any other bladibla dibla prohibited.'

and

'This DVD may not be exported outside of its region/zone, as specified on the original packaging'

Seems pretty clear to me. And the text is basically the same on all DVD's, I doubt there's a difference in America. So, anyone still wanna shout that 'fansubs are illegal and should piss off' but 'I watch anime at my local anime club, and I can always import titles, why can't you'?? (aside from the sad fact that not every city in this country has got an anime club yet).

Anyone care to throw in the 'but it's for educational purposes' argument too? Actually, that *is* a valid one, my University shows movies - no Anime yet, working on it ;p - without paying license fees. Anime smile Well to be honest, I don't know for sure. Maybe it's one of those 'urban myths' again (there are a lot of them) and there just has been no-one complaining so far. On the other hand, it is an university...


Tiresias wrote:
Quote:
Am I the only one that noticed that this thread got a lot of new people to join?


Yes, but after this all dies down will they remain and continue to post meaningful contributions to the forum?


Well, I, for one, will not. I *do* have a Dutch forum to attend, you know, and this one is generally America-oriented so often of quite little concern to me...

~Grauw
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
desmondona



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 3
Location: Houston
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 11:37 am Reply with quote
It's quite silly of the pro-Anime Junkies people or "fansubs are the gift of anti-capitalism" people to claim that anime is expensive. It really isn't...you just have to look. It's not that hard. TSRI is always having sales, and places like Wal-Mart are even starting to carry anime, though most is still Dragonball, you can find shows like .hack and Argen Soma for way under MSRP. I paid 16 dollars for my copy of .hack. 5 episodes for 16 dollars is in no way me getting poorer. Even 5 episodes for 30 dollars isn't a ripoff. You claim that you promote capitalism by buying these, but you're actually helping to give working people paychecks and to ensure that more animes will be brought over.

I've seen the quality of fansubs. They're not that good-looking at all. I'd rather have a shiny, pretty DVD sitting on my shelf than a file of that same episode sitting in my harddrive.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger
Grauw



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 11
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 11:44 am Reply with quote
Philou255 wrote:
All I can say is what I've seen.
Here in France since cable connections and dsl has become available, most "fans" download everything and buy but a few DVDs.


Last time I was in France, I bought -excited as I was- an Anime magazine. You know what? It was full of advertisements for bootlegs! Apparantly countries like France and Spain suffer very badly from them (fortunately the Dutch anime market barely has one), and from the Dutch representative of Dynamic Visions (they publish in France, Spain, Netherlands, Germany, etc) I heard that bootlegs are their real problem. They don't mind fansubs.

So I would blame them bootlegs first, and only then complain about (unlicensed) fansubs. They are the criminals who earn loads of money by distributing easily-obtainable DVD's for less money than official releases. The fansubs maybe deprive the DVD companies of a little money, but those people might not have bought the DVD's anyways. In compensation for that: they might have made a couple of new anime fans, which will buy also buy DVD's. In addition to that, don't forget we're talking about France here: most people can't even properly speak English there, and whenever possible I bet they'd rather spend a little money for an official French product than a low-quality English one, which can only be watched on the computer.

~Grauw
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tempest
I Run this place.
ANN Publisher & CEO


Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 10256
Location: Do not message me for support.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 11:50 am Reply with quote
I've gotten a couple requests for the full e-mail fromAJ to Urban Vision. I see no harm in posting it verbatim. I had originally not posted the entire thing in the editorial because it would make the whole article too long.


Quote:

From: Joe Anime [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 5:51 AM
To: [REMOVED BY TEMPEST]@urbanvision.com
Subject: RE: ...


Just make sure your Ninja Scroll release is not as shitty as all your other
releases. Your pretty [expletive] dumb if you think you can stop fansubs, thier
are 3 other groups doing this series too. You gonna go cry to more fans that
do it for fun, becuase your spending your money on something you know people
can get for free. Leave fansubs to fans or do it for free yourselves. All
you are doing is getting rich off a series we helped make popular.
Cause right now you have ALOT of pissed off people, that are mad at you for
making it so they cannot watch it weekly as it airs in japan, and these are
the same people you are trying to sell this to. They will buy DVD if they
want, and more will buy becuase they have seen the fansubs and know they
will enjoy it. Who the fudge are you anyways to buy a series we were doing?
We are already sending this series out to more people than your sorry ass
company ever will, why do you feel the need to release it to people? What
are you gaining, besides enemy's. If you really want to sub, come to IRC and
do it, charge if you want to. But then see what it is like to not have your
$$ backing you, see how long you [expletive] last with your 3 episodes a month.
And if your gonna do dubs, then don't worry about our [expletive] subs, people
who want dubs will not care about fansubs at all. You knew we were subbing,
you know people fansub... So why the fudge did you start a DVD company? Cause
you are just fansubbers with rich daddies?
Anyways I have wasted enough time with you sorry fucks.


Rot in Hell,
Me

P.S. you stopped us on Ninja Scroll, cause I know peices of shit like you
that only care about money will try to get the law involved, but remeber
some group somewhere will release Ninja Scroll, and they will recive alot of
support from us.
Have a nice day.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail My Anime My Manga
cookie
Old Regular


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 2460
Location: Do not contact me for support.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 11:55 am Reply with quote
Tiresias wrote:
EDIT: I should add that this is how this copyright law has been explained to me and that there are exceptions for film festivals and conventions and the like.


The warning is to deter groups from running the video for free, screening it for hundreds of people, without the company's knowledge.

Although watching the movie with a group of friends is technically illegal, provided that group isn't too large (ie, you and your 200 closest friends) there really isn't any reason why the company would do anything to you..

Not to mention, with small groups it becomes increasingly difficult to tell if there even IS a group watching the title or not.

However, regardless of the size of the club, if the club is open to the public, they need to contact companies for permission to screen titles. Most companies have specific people who handle screening permission requests.. and most companies typically accept most screening requests. Rare is it when a company will completely turn down a screening request.

Film fests, conventions and such aren't excempt. They still need to have permission from the license holder in order to show the work.. but when asked, the companies typically work together with these groups so that they can show as much of the series as possible. Fruits Basket enjoyed a full episode run at ACen, for example. Other times a studio will only have a portion of the dub complete, or will only want a portion of the series shown.

But like I said -- typically companies are pretty easy-going when asked for screenings.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
radicaledward



Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Posts: 776
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 11:55 am Reply with quote
Trom wrote:

Ah, what luck! God has come down from heaven to provide simple declarations of fact for us that we need neither discuss nor question.

Wow, what an ego boost, too bad that that is a job that I would never want. Razz

Trom wrote:

Fansubs aren't needed! Everyone stop fansubbing now cause radicaledward is happy with the anime that's available now. Titles which aren't currently available commercially and titles which will likely never be available? No problem, radicaledward doesn't seem to be interested in them, and neither should we!

Am I happy with whats avalible now - not totaly, but I doubt that some fansub group is going to do about half the show that I would be interested in seeing, they are interesed primarly in doing what is new and don't care about the older stuff, or for that matter anything that is not at the hight of "coolness" in both Japan and the fansubbing community. Guess what, if there is a show that I want to see I write the companies and bring it to thier attention that someone that would pay money to see exists.

Trom wrote:

Excuse me, what was "fansubs original purpose"? Seems like some people think it was just to create commercial anime dubbing companies in the US. Companies exist now, so purpose fulfilled, disband, glory be. Or was it to create anime fandom? A hoarde of people to purchase anime?

From my understanding the orginal purpose of fansub groups was something along the lines of "Make unlicenesed anime avalible to the larger community so that it can be enjoyed by all". Lets see if they have done their job; hmm, well being that I don't have to look hard to find anime for sale anymore I guess the job is fullfilled. Anime is now avalible to a much larger community than the old school VHS fansub distros could ever hope for, and yes anime fandom is now mainstream, so their job has been fullfilled. Kudos to the old school groups.

Trom wrote:

Though there may be some justification for fansubbing things which are licensed, support of commercial anime distribution is an overriding concern which trumps any other such justification. Ergo, the simple fansubber ethic of stopping fansubbing and distribution upon licensing. For me, this is a good, clear line of demarcation. AJ is in the wrong by ignoring licensing. On the other hand, the "we know its going to be licensed" or "just consider everything licensed because of the few titles currently licensed (less than 10% of anime, btw)" attitude isn't really right either.

There is no justification of fansubbing anything that is licensed, period. Nothing futher to say in regards to that. If their is a title that you want to see licensed - write the compaines and say so! The mere fact that Anime Junkies got a polite e-mail instead of a lawsuit for having a licensed anime is proof that the companies are reasonable, and the do listen to the fans.

Trom wrote:

PS: No matter when people joined the board, the arguments they post either stand on their own merits or they do not. Snide comments about not having been part of some "community" just make the forum sound mean-spirited.

That wasn't ment to be a snide remark - merely an observation. It is unusual to have that meny new people posting in the same thread, and that is true no matter what board you go to.

I have to agree with alot of the things that Zac says about this subject the way that Anime Junkies acted was the way you would expect of a little child that has its favorite toy taken away, their is no justification for the way they responed in their e-mail.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Lucca



Joined: 17 Aug 2002
Posts: 67
Location: Amoung the Fern-Growers
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 12:12 pm Reply with quote
o.o That's an awful letter! I could never have it in my heart to write something like that....
People these days... *sigh* Why can't it be like the olden, golden days?

As for the copyright/ showing issues on DVD... I doubt anyone pays attention to that. Honestly, I think the only time you ever have to worry over something like that is if you're showing the movie at an organised event, like a convention or club. All private viewing (sleepovers with friends, borrowing, ect.) don't count. It's no big deal honestly... In fact, it's usually good promotion.

And some of the guys who joined today... probly like me... post once, never come back. However, I did come back ;p Which makes me feel pretty lame for not posting more.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Tenchi



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 4392
Location: Ottawa... now I'm an ex-Anglo Montrealer.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 12:42 pm Reply with quote
Hmm... the spelling, punctuation, and grammar located herein make me glad that I only dowload fansubs once in a blue moon.

Tempest wrote:
I've gotten a couple requests for the full e-mail from AJ to Urban Vision. I see no harm in posting it verbatim. I had originally not posted the entire thing in the editorial because it would make the whole article too long.


Quote:

From: Joe Anime [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 5:51 AM
To: [REMOVED BY TEMPEST]@urbanvision.com
Subject: RE: ...


Just make sure your Ninja Scroll release is not as shitty as all your other
releases. You're pretty [expletive] dumb if you think you can stop fansubs; there
are 3 other groups doing this series too. Are [y]ou going to go cry to more fans that do it for fun, because you're spending your money on something you know people can get for free? Leave fansubs to fans or do it for free yourselves. All you are doing is getting rich off a series we helped make popular. [Actually, there is no need for "because" here since it doesn't appear to connect this clause with another clause.] [R]ight now you have A LOT of pissed off people [there should be no comma] that are mad at you for making it so they cannot watch it weekly as it airs in Japan , and these are the same people to whom you are trying to sell this. They will buy ["the", "a" or "your"] DVD if they want, and more will buy because they have seen the fansubs and know they will enjoy it. Who the fudge are you anyways to buy a series we were doing? We are already sending this series out to more people than your sorry ass company ever will, so why do you feel the need to release it to people? What are you gaining, besides enemies? If you really want to sub, come to IRC and do it [no comma] and charge if you want to. But then see what it is like to not have your ["money" should be written out] backing you; see how long you [expletive] last with your 3 episodes a month. And, if you're going to do dubs, then don't worry about our [expletive] subs [either connect these clauses with "as" or use a semicolon[ people who want dubs will not care about fansubs at all. You knew we were subbing; you know people fansub... So why the fudge did you start a DVD company? Because you are just fansubbers with rich daddies? Anyways, [By the way, according to the Oxford Dictionary of Canadian English, "anyways" is an acceptable variant of "anyway"] I have wasted enough time with you sorry fucks.


Rot in Hell,
Me

P.S. You stopped us on Ninja Scroll [no comma] because I know pieces of shit like you that only care about money will try to get the law involved, but remeber some group somewhere will release Ninja Scroll [no comma] and they will recive a lot of support from us. Have a nice day.


Last edited by Tenchi on Mon Jun 09, 2003 12:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
radicaledward



Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Posts: 776
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 12:45 pm Reply with quote
Tenchi wrote:

Hmm... the spelling, punctuation, and grammar located herein make me glad that I only dowload fansubs once in a blue moon.


That deserves a round of applause!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
chidori



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 5
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 12:51 pm Reply with quote
Perhaps we should do an experiment!! YAY!

Next time, if we can somehow find out in advance what anime urban vision is going to buy, lets have NO fansubbers subtitle the anime. No one talk about it. Lets see how well known that anime becomes. And see if it sells just as well as other typical anime.

I'm seriously curious about what the results would be like.

Also, slightly off topic... but does anyone know how many anime dvds per series are actually sold outside of asia?
Like, is it in the thousands? tens of thousands? *gasp* or even in the range of a hundred thousand?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cassandra



Joined: 13 May 2002
Posts: 1356
Location: Birdsboro, PA
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 12:56 pm Reply with quote
chidori wrote:
Perhaps we should do an experiment!! YAY!

Next time, if we can somehow find out in advance what anime urban vision is going to buy, lets have NO fansubbers subtitle the anime. No one talk about it. Lets see how well known that anime becomes. And see if it sells just as well as other typical anime.

I'm seriously curious about what the results would be like.


The show was licensed by UV before the Junkies ever saw the first episode. That is the point. Much like the new Ghost in the Shell series, it was licensed in the US before the Japanese ever saw an episode. This isn't about predicting what a company will buy. (Though, in reality, there's a lot of stuff out there that will most likely be licensed very quickly.) It's about fansubbing something that you shouldn't have in the first place.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger My Anime My Manga
Shock12



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 1
Location: Hungary
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 1:00 pm Reply with quote
Ok, you seem to forget, that there are countries, where we neither can get anime DVD-s from the shelf, nor rent... The only way is to get them through online shops, which aren't so wallet - friendly ... The only way is to obtain them are fansubs. So I think, it is a bit egoistic, to say, all fansubbers should rot in hell, and some are "unethical"... I am not helped out, if the newest series are licenced in the US, I don't live there. In our country we don't have the oppurtunity to obtain the available DVDs. Yes, I have a collection of fansubs, but my stipend is far less, than the required amount that could be used for getting a VISA (which could be used for online shopping), not to mention the DVD prices at online shops. I hope, I will earn enough money, to finance my own little hobby, but now, my only way is downloading fansubs. So to say, I don't like the idea to shut down these "unethical" fansubbers, 'cause they make licensed fansubs (becouse other countries exist than the US). Yeah...some anime-s are available in Europe too... but I hope, I am going to be able to replace my little fansub collection with DVDs... until then I hope, fansubbers are going to continue their great work, because without them I had never become an anime fan... and many other people in Hungary, and in Central, and Eastern Europe...

Thats all.

ps. Our anime community in this country is fighting a loosing war to get some companies to import anime...


Last edited by Shock12 on Mon Jun 09, 2003 1:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ranmah



Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 294
Location: Stomp'n on Tokyo Tower
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 1:00 pm Reply with quote
What Anime Junkies did to Urban Vision is an insult to fansubbers everywhere. When my club did fan subs we dropped any anime that would be commerically released. As an artist I know that showing your work as the best way possible is a great way to have the public look at your work.

AJ has stepped the line and should not be in business anymore. If they have a valid arugment I don't see it. Using profanity is a great way to make enemies. And I think you just made a couple more.

Ranmah
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website My Anime My Manga
jmays
ANN Associate Editor


Joined: 29 Jul 2002
Posts: 1390
Location: St. Louis, MO
PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 1:02 pm Reply with quote
chidori wrote:
Perhaps we should do an experiment!! YAY!

Next time, if we can somehow find out in advance what anime urban vision is going to buy, lets have NO fansubbers subtitle the anime. No one talk about it. Lets see how well known that anime becomes. And see if it sells just as well as other typical anime.

I'm seriously curious about what the results would be like.

Cool. Go for it.

How about this? Why doesn't Anime Junkies resolve not to fansub any series that's released in Japan this fall? I'm sure you have enough to occupy your short attention spans in the meantime.

So...could you do it? Or is that asking too much?

-Miagi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Anime News Network Forum Index -> General -> Anime All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous    Next
Page 7 of 30

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group