Forum - View topicCode Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion (TV).
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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I've been thinking about this too, and it makes a bit more sense when you realize that spoiler[Lelouch is pretty much doing what Suzaku was trying to do all this time: change Britannia from within. However, I agree that his going along with some of the more extreme Geass uses is very odd and doesn't seem in character, though he did sort of break after FLEILA.] As for spoiler[Nunnaly's return, I'm still a bit sceptical because having her alive does diminish the power of the death scene. But I'm willing to wait and see what they do with it, because in the end it might be worth it. Her last moment there was pretty good.] Mainly, I'm glad that we are finally actually getting a plot that has spoiler[more politics than that supernatural, makes no sense stuff with Charles and Marianne. I think this season would have been better without all that, and then this stuff at the end would seem less rushed.] As for the Rounds, spoiler[we always knew some of them would be canon fodder. There are just too many of them, and only Anya and Gino have gotten much in the way of development. Speaking of which, I do like what they did with Gino here, I've always liked his character.] And yes, Lelouch and Suzaku's outfits are pretty hilariously bad. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Well said, Tony K..
I had always suspected that spoiler[Nunnally was still alive (simply because we didn't see her body, not that there would have been one with a disintegration weapon like FLEIA). But then, episode 21 came out and we learnt that Charles and Marianne hadn't rescued her. It just seemed like she really was dead. And then, not only does she come back from Jupiter-knows-where, surviving Jupiter-knows how, but she's the antagonist?] That just really annoys me. And disappoints me as well; they could have done better. Personally, I have to say that unlike you, I am not yet over the disappointment. So I'll cue the disappointment by tagging it, and will only close off the tag once the series gets back on track. If this season ever was on track to begin with. It probably was, once. [disappointment] |
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guet
 Posts: 492 Location: Sparta |
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Personally I am not at all dissapointed. Ep 22spoiler[I said right after the episode where Nunnally "died" that there was no way that she would have bought it without showing proof of her death or without her plot having any more development. She needed to dissapear so that Lelouch could deal with Charles. As long as Nunnally was in the picture he could focus on nothing but her.
Schniezel must have had her escape from the blast planned ahead of time. The true endgame has always been about Schneizel vs. Lelouch. And Schniezel is smart enough to know that his only true weakness is Nunnally. Honestly, would you all have been happier thinking that she died without knowing the truth, in a shuttle acting as a figurehead and not having any real development at all? I for one thought that her death would have been very weak if it had been for real. As far as Lelouch and Suzaku going all dark side, from the start Lelouch has always put his morals in the back of his mind. The fact that he is willing to become as evil as he has to be for the greater good has always been one of the more appealing aspects of his character to me. He is willing to sacrifice all, his name, pride, reputation, "soul" and he has no feelings of remorse for doing so. You could actually say that the person he is cruelest to has always been himself. Just look at how he had to turn Rivals and Kallen away this episode. You know that was hard on him. As far as the slave thing goes. We know that once a person dies the effects of the Geass go away. Also, in the off chance that he planned on living (doubtful), there was always Jerimiah. As one of Suzaku's biggest detractors I am glad to see him come around to Lelouch's way of thinking. He admits that his crimes are unforgivable, but decides to attempt to make amends by any means he has at his disposal. Even if it means adding more sins by killing so that Lelouch can finish his plan. I agree that Lelouch's most recent idea was probably the idea that he could unite the world against him, both bringing true peace once he is gone, and also erasing Eupie's history by being more memorable in his actions. But now that Schneizel is a serious threat to that peace and Nunnally needs saving again (she probably does not know anything of what is going on other than a twisted version Schneizel has told her), I think his motives will change. Really there is a lot that could be said about Tamaki. One second he is all "Zero's my buddy", the next "Damn, that bastard" it seems like people go back and forth hating and loving this show just as much as he does with Zero. ] Sorry for the wall of text and I didn't word it very well, but I gotta say I am still excited to see how this all plays out. |
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ivorymoose
 Posts: 240 |
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I never liked Nunnally and thought that Lelouch’s reasons for fighting to create a better world where Nunnally could live safely is silly especially when he had to go through such trouble, I have been very quiet with regards to my opinion of Nunnally because it is politically wrong for anybody to criticize a frail blind girl sitting in a wheel chair. What would people in this forum think of me? But now, I just can’t keep quiet anymore, so here I am saying everything I feel about Nunnally. I always thought she could be the antagonist because she never approved or disapproved of Zero’s actions. She could even be upset that Lelouch “used” her as a reason to justify actions. It is stupid to assume she does not know Zero’s identity. Why are her eyes shut? Lelouch cannot geass her. Is she really blind? Does she really need rescue and protection? I was happy to hear she was dead and hoped she stayed that way. But of course, she is not dead! Her death would force Lelouch to find new reasons to fight and achieve his full potential as a strategist, leader and possibly emperor although I have doubts if he is capable enough to become emperor and hold the empire together like his dad. At this rate, I won’t be surprised if Nunally ends up becoming the absolute Empress of Britannia.
I think this post will make me look very bad if Nunnally turns out to be truely a frail innocent blind girl on a wheel chair......but....I'm the suspicious type and today, I happen to feel like my Avatar ---- Asuka Langley Shouryu. 
Last edited by ivorymoose on Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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I think almost nobody around here is happy with the rush, not even me, but even so it's possible to look beyond or around it...sometimes with difficulty and maybe some creativity, but it's not impossible.
spoiler[Suzaku's in a vastly superior Lancelot Albion, a machine which should be on par with a new Guren that has already destroyed at least one Knights of the Rounds with little difficulty. Overpowered, but I see nothing there that wasn't already on the way. Lelouch is grossly contradicting his values, on the surface...because he's basically on a grand suicide mission to remove himself and probably Britannia from the world...at the end of the day, you can tell from his talk with Suzaku during this episode that he doesn't really expect to come out of it on top (the "Requiem of Zero") and that the whole "conquer the world" thing is mostly an act...possibly to unify everyone against him and Suzaku, going by the rest of the episode until Nunnally came up. This does contrast with last episode's optimistic tone, on the surface...but philosophically, I get the feeling the conversation between Lelouch and Suzaku, during the one month time gap, was where all this was laid out, and it's not that far off. Too bad we didn't get to see it, since I admit this is a little murky, but both of them were already aware of all their multiple sins and had to come up with a way to cleanse them once and for all, by not allowing such tragedies to repeat themselves...at the cost of one last act. This is ironically, not that far from what Charles and Marianne were doing, only that the methods are different and don't involve altering people's wills...on a global scale that is, since Lelouch is definitely abusing his own Geass power on a daily basis now. Nunnally's return has been talked about for a while, even shortly after she disappeared, so I can't say that really troubles me so much.]
The continuing rush remains a problem, once again, but even if the writing is definitely taking shortcuts, trying to fit too many things into an already complicated plot, and has very sloppy edges...I think there are still some themes and symbolism involved, as well as character drama. I am somewhat disappointed, overall, but not to the same degree, I have to say. |
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Tony K.
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 12088 Location: Frisco, TX |
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spoiler[ Yes, great characters (usually "superhero" types) do find inexplicable ways of inflicting some kind of self-punishment and suffering and using said actions as a kind of motivation for a greater, more noble cause. However, because of the writing rush these last few episodes, I feel Lelouch loses some of that sympathy because we're not actually viewing him suffer via a mono/dialogue or some other kind of representation, then eventually grieving and recovering.
These kinds of characters, despite their valiance and especially considering the cruel stuff Lelouch has done, need to display some sort of humility. It's not enough with his flashbacks of his mother, his promise to Nunally, his actions on Euphy, or even Shirley's death. This is the exact same formula that made Yagami Light feel so villainous, and thus unlikable to me.] Now take another character like Batman for example. I'm sure most of you have seen The Dark Knight. And this thread makes for a very interesting comparison. spoiler[ Much like Batman did in TDK, Zero is purposely making himself a "villain" of sorts by taking the fall and forcing himself to be hated by practically everyone (and all for a great cause). The big difference between Bruce Wayne and Lelouch, though, is that Lelouch has shown very little of his human side. True, we find out that in Batman Begins that Wayne eventually becomes Batman and that "Bruce Wayne" is his "mask." But even in a span of 2 and half hours, we still get to see enough of his humanity and sympathize for his struggle, especially with the circumstances faced in TDK. Lelouch, on the other hand, aside from a few flashbacks and his Shirley moments, isn't nearly as convincing. And while I do like his Zero persona, I don't feel the overall franchise ever really exposed enough of his "human moments." That and the blatant fan service are the only things restricting a Masterpiece rating from me.] I honestly wish this would've followed more of a shounen series format. Not so much tsuyoku-naritai, but at least with a few more episodes to draw out some of the characters and less chaotica. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Let's face it: the series was too ambitious. When you try and excel at everything, you end up excelling at nothing. Still, the series remains enjoyable even now, but I get the sense that there was so much potential that didn't get used, because the series lost its focus. |
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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I 100% agree with this. While I will reserve complete judgement until I see the end, I really think the series tried to do way too much and so there were some plots that were completely out there and other things that just got completely lost along the way. Also, as I've been saying for awhile, the cast is just way too big and attempts to give them all development end up creating a situation where no one but the big major players really get anything substantial. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Yes, this very episode spoiler[we were introduced to the Knight of Four, who promptly, dutifully and thankfully died. You know a show has too many characters when a majority of the audience want half the cast dead simply so we can keep track of those who might remain.]
And then there are the mysteries. spoiler[I still haven't gotten my head round certain events that have transpired, not to mention all the motives and reasonings for the characters. Why didn't Charles just kill V2 eight years ago, and take his code right there and then? Why did C2 run away from Charles and Marianne, when they could have ended her torment? If Schneizel was investigating Geass ruins back in season one, how long has he known about Geass? What exactly does he know about Geass, other than that which pertains to Lelouch? And who built those ruins? I could go on, but I'm sure you've gotten my point already; too many mysteries, not enough wholesome explanations (i.e. ones that do not raise new mysteries).] Finally from me tonight, I do hope that Lelouch has a happy ending. spoiler[For all that he has done, both good and bad, I always hoped that he would not only make the world a better place, but live to enjoy it. Though he is the protagonist, and therefore assured of at least partially succeeding, it seems less and less likely that he will have a happy ending. Because of all the pain he has endured, I would love to see him actually do what Light could not, and that is "win".] |
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ryokoalways
Posts: 562 |
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Didn't like the episode too much. Pacing is a little off, but I didn't think it was a big deal. On the contrary, I thought that they had managed to keep things fairly coherent even at this speed.
spoiler[My main problem with the episode is that Nunnally is alive (Sayako as well from the preview, but I think that should be it?). This is basically the worst case scenario for me for the plot. Right now, the series is all mangled, made certain other parts of the series seem inconsequential, and doesn't seem to have a clear direction (Other than they want to kill everybody off). I understand that they want to play the martyr, that was easy to see. However, the method by how they are portraying it is not the best way in my opinion.] spoiler[The reason Season 1 was good is because that it had a few twists here and there to introduce intensity to the series, and other than that just let the characters drive the story. I always believe the strong cast, even the sub-characters, made season 1 a huge hit. Season 2 just kind of threw that out the window, basically the moment when they decided to introduce a bunch of new characters, end up not having any time to develop/understand them, and then decide to use them as cannon fodder. Also, Geass R2 is already pushing the limit on number of twists per series. I think the series can still be taken seriously with one more twist of some type, but if they cranked out anymore than that, the series would feel too superficial.] For 23, they need to clean up a few points, such as Lelouch/Suzaku's clear goals (which should be brought up at some point thanks to spoiler[Nunnally coming back]. Also, we need to understand what exactly happened with that person, spoiler[which should be provided by Sayoko]. The rest is anyone's guess. But being generic at this point would be a lot better. They can still go back to the formula of season 1 within the next 3 episodes and finish it really strong. There are still plenty of characters around that can drive the story spoiler[(Lloyd/Cecil, Gino, Kaguya, Nunnally, Cornelia, maybe Kallen, etc).] Get a simple plot out, and just let the characters do the work. Minor rant: I didn't like how they "ended" the Kallen's situation, even though it's the same reason as to why everything else is proceeding at this pace. But that's largely because I am a fan of Kallen. Like many other characters, she was made to be one-dimensional this season due to time constraint. If that's the conclusion for her conflict, it felt somewhat empty. |
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ivorymoose
Posts: 240 |
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spoiler[ Strangely, I keep equating Lelouch and CC with Shouryu and Enki (12 Kingdoms). Lelouch should just admit to CC (the person who empowered him) and also to himself that he wants the power to rule as emperor instead of finding all kinds of noble reason for wanting that power to rule. Noble reasons for seeking absolute power is wonderful but for the case of Lelouch, his reasons are all weird and may even appear silly. His "noble reasons" may cause him his life and possibly the life of CC. CC herself said that if Lelouch dies, she's in trouble for sure. He has gone to the extent of removing his own father from the throne, a lot of people died because of his rebellion, now he had better establish his throne like any emperor and if Nunnally is in the way, she must be destroyed. Like dtm42, I also hope that Lelouch wins with a happy ending, that he would make the world a better place, a world where he can live to enjoy. I think he can still win. I like Shouryu in the 12 Kingdoms, he knows what he wants, he wants a Kingdom to rule and simply accepted Enki's "gift". Now, what cannot Lelouch do the same? I don't know why I have this feeling that Lelouch is not as capable as his father. At least not as mentally stable.  ]
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nightjuan
Posts: 1473 |
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I can agree with this. We can blame the time slot change and other modifications, as the root of the problem...but even then, the creators could have just simplified the story even at the cost of lowering their own ambitions. Instead, it feels like they wanted to get everything they wanted, and many things didn't quite receive their deserved attention. There simply wasn't enough time. Perhaps Code Geass R2 should have been a 50 episode show, because it certainly feels like there was enough material for that. It is pointless to worry about that now, in any case. However...there were obviously too many characters, but even then I don't think every one of them needed development. spoiler[The Knights of Rounds, in particular, didn't exactly need to be fully fleshed out. I wanted them to last a little longer, but I don't think their role in the plot required most of them to have complex motivations or anything. ] |
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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I don't think Lulu has any noble reasons. His sarcastic comment: "We all love democracy, don't we?" and the fact that he seems fine with orders such as "All of you shall become my slaves" somehow assure me that all he wants is power and having others to grovel at his feet. What he is doing now is not different from what his parents wanted to do the only difference is that Lulu still haven't geassed the whole word to enforce his will. However, it's not like I don't like him. In my opinion, it would be nice to see Lulu win but ending up as a total asshole.
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Kaioshin_Sama
Posts: 1215 |
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I don't know, I think it's that the series doesn't play by the typical rules of it's genre that makes it interesting a lot of the time. I'm sure it would be better received as it is right now by the average viewer who wants them to just come out and give clear cut explanations to everything withe straight forward and obvious dialogue, but I think if that had happened I would have long since lost interest in this series. For somebody like me who is always looking for new experiences and loves to see shows break the standard molds or turn them on their head I'm loving this current arc. Most series would have ended where episode 21 had ended with a 5 minute wrap up near the end. Geass R2 does what nobody expected and continues the story to give the two main characters one final arc unto themselves so that we might truly understand the measure of these men. I have a feeling with this 4 part finale we'll find out more about our characters true natures then we did throughout much of the series watching them hide behind masks. |
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Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 12088 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Don't get me wrong. I said I wanted less chaotica, not its total elimination. I mentioned earlier that I do like the plot twists and all, especially up to episode 21. However, I didn't like 22 because of what direction it seems to be going at this point, so the last 3 might still be able to pull something off.
I also made the shounen allusion as more of a reference to episode count, not so much the formula and writing practices. Instead of 50 total episodes for both seasons, I was suggesting some kind of odd number like 56, 61, 74, or however many it takes to create a truly epic story with just enough fleshing of the most important characters/themes. It's not like I'm asking for 3-4 episode monologues while Zero is sitting in a Knightmare and wondering if he should kill Suzaku or not, then reminiscing about their friendship and ultimately deciding to cast the "live on" Geass. I'm convinced the level of writing could've thoroughly explained or symbolized enough of the characters/themes without resorting to the more generic scripts of a Shounen Jump title. Of course, this will depend entirely on the last 3 episodes to see if that works out or not. But right now, I am disappointed. We'll just have to wait and see if CLAMP/Sunrise can prove me wrong. |
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