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Zac wrote:

Hey, HEY! Knock it off you two.

By all means. It's not even worth the effort.

_Scythe_ wrote:

It was more of how the statement was made. Zac was putting it up their with the arts which I know is a very wide range. Then he seemed to push it down the more V tried to advocate the importance of the show. Im no real art fan but I like NGE and I would pick that over any picasso. And in terms of cinema art it is much better than many critically acclaimed films in my opinion.

I think Zac was saying that while art is totally awesome and worthwhile, the sheer amount of energy this guy is putting into arguing about Eva could be better channeled into something more useful, like helping people.

Having listened to the rest of the argument, I get were both of you guys are coming from to an extent.

I agree with Zac that interpretation is subjective. There is no single, complete, monolithic interpretation of Eva. We disagree and argue and so we should. That's a good thing. If someone has a really crazy and out there interpretation then I want to hear it.

That said, there is a point where we pass out of subjective territory to some degree. While many interpretations are equally valid, there are some that are not valid. If someone claims that Eva is trying to say [X] and they are basing this claim on the assumption that the religious symbolism is meaningful and yet, the creators have said it isn't well then obvious their theory is wrong. That is not what Eva was trying to say. If you claim that it is at least without addressing the open contradiction to what the creators have said...well then you're kinda wilfully spreading misinformation. So in that way, yeah. I understand Vinny's frustration.

That said, these people still have every right to say these things and what's more there may even be some merit to discussing their theories. It is interesting to contemplate alternate interpretations one could draw. I think though that there should then be at least some acknowledgement that their theory is incorrect. You can't really make a claim that this is what Eva means in these cases.

OtakuExile wrote:

You are what's wrong with all of this fandom. You are a Hybrid product that has grown with the internet age and the 2000 bubble. You are split between far too many things. Too many goddamn fandoms. Japanese culture and Western culture are like oil and water. It will never fully be accepted by either side. Not now not ever. None of this has changed in the last 3 decades since I got into it.

It's wrong to be interested in other things in addition to anime? Nobody can be both into Western culture and Japanese culture. That's absurd. It's nothing but ridiculous empty snobbery.

Japanese and Western fandoms aren't supposed to cross over?

Is it just me or are a million domestic Otaku going to burst into flames when they release the move adaption of Claremont/Frank Miller's Wolverine miniseries next year? That book's almost 30 years old now, but a standard read among Marvel fans, and is a pretty awesome combination of all things X-men and Japan (and from what I've seen, might also have inspired some of the casting choices in the Wolverine anime considering Storm's pal Yukio looks to be in it].

Serious question: if you like the anime segments from Kill Bill, are you enjoying it as a "Western fan" or as an "Eastern fan"?

Or what about the parts of Gundam and Space Battleship Yamato that were heavily influenced by the post-Star Wars boom in the late 70's/early 1980's?

Wow, that 2 hours discussion was rather...interesting.

About the whole "author intent" vs. "fan interpretation", I side totally with Zac here. If Anno had come out and said from day one that the theme of Eva was simply about not hiding in a fantasy world and live in the real one, and he vigorously shot down fan interpretation about his work, the Eva fandom would be much smaller, and the show wouldn't have had the impact we can still see 15 years after it was made. It really wasn't the author's message that allowed Eva to stay on everyone's radar, but the debates that ensued that really kept it at the back of everyone's mind. Pretty much everyone walks away with an opinion of Eva, and good or bad, that back and forth is what made the show such a success.

So having spirited debate between intent and interpretation is something that is bad because the author's intent is the only true way to enjoy a show and anything else confuses people? People have always gone by their own interpretations of things for the longest time, be it anime, books, movies what have you. Trying to deprive people of that ability to put their own spin on things, a pretty elitist attitude if you ask me, is the real reason any rift exists between any fan of....pretty much anything. The old guard refuses to compromise any anything and treat newer fans like crap, which leads to newer fans hating the old. I've seen fans of anime bemoan the fact that their favorite show has suddenly gotten popular now, since it isn't special or unique to them anymore. But rather than having such a negative attitude, simply present your opinion. If people like it, great. If they shoot it down, oh well, roll with the punches. Leading some crusade to change peoples minds by force doesn't sound like something most people will rally around, simply on principle.

_V_ wrote:

Serious question: if you like the anime segments from Kill Bill, are you enjoying it as a "Western fan" or as an "Eastern fan"?

Or what about the parts of Gundam and Space Battleship Yamato that were heavily influenced by the post-Star Wars boom in the late 70's/early 1980's?

how about as a film fan? I'm not an "eastern fan" or a "western fan" i'm a fan of what i like.

Zac sold the interview with V Guy (I STILL don't know how the hell to actually address him) like it was a 24-hour news channel shouting match. Maybe it's in that other hour and 3/4ths where is gets really crazy.

V Guy doesn't sound completely irrational- I just think he needs to give up on thinking that he needs to be a missionary for anime.

I don't want to see anime to die, and I would love for more people to enjoy what I do, but it's ultimately up to the industry to get fresh eyes focused on them.

Now, If you want more people to watch anime on TV, I think you're better off constructing a working time machine to go back to the 90s instead of trying to bring back "the good ol' days"

i also want to point out that V Guy keeps talking about "Adult Swim! Adult Swim!" What, no love for Saturday morning Cartoons? For me, if it weren't for Saturday Morning Dragonball Z, I would not be deeply nestled in the bosom of anime and all it has to offer.

Adult Swim: it's kinda for adults.

THAT. WAS. AWESOME.

Great Debate, listened to the entire thing. While Zacs argument makes more sense, I kinda like V's idea as well, though he might be a bit too extreme at times.

This was great, be sure to do another one of these again sometime.

_V_ wrote:

Serious question: if you like the anime segments from Kill Bill, are you enjoying it as a "Western fan" or as an "Eastern fan"?

Why are you quoting Tarantino movies, this is an anime forum.

_V_ wrote:

Or what about the parts of Gundam and Space Battleship Yamato that were heavily influenced by the post-Star Wars boom in the late 70's/early 1980's?

Any up to date references? That shit is past it's prime. Cartoon or anime? You don't know which way is up anymore. The lines have blurred so much you've lost your identity. though at this point, I doubt it was even there. Should I compare non-relevant crap to even more non-relevant crap? No. I can see why you've earned the rep.

Paploo wrote:

Japanese and Western fandoms aren't supposed to cross over?

How long do the relationships ever last? Or even profit? Why are people trying so hard to hold on, if the cross overs are truly working.

If East and West got along, Anime would not be niche. Anime isn't mainstream. And again, Otaku and Western comic book fans aren't one in the same.

Or are we all one big "know-all" nerd now?

ikillchicken wrote:

It's wrong to be interested in other things in addition to anime? Nobody can be both into Western culture and Japanese culture. That's absurd. It's nothing but ridiculous empty snobbery.

Snobbery? Really? It's not wrong. I am the same, but what he is preaching to are mass anime fans who are interested in one thing. It's simple. Not multiple fandoms that each have to be fully researched in prior, to even take part in.

OtakuExile wrote:

Snobbery? Really? It's not wrong. I am the same, but what he is preaching to are mass anime fans who are interested in one thing. It's simple. Not multiple fandoms that each have to be fully researched in prior, to even take part in.

Dude, what on earth are you even talking about? Nobody is disputing that the anime fandom is not the exact same group as other western fandoms. So what? You're just spouting all this really vague and nonspecific nonsense with no clear issue that you're actually raising.

Quote:

Why are you quoting Tarantino movies, this is an anime forum.

Yes...he is referencing Kill Bill. One segment of Kill Bill was anime.

Holy crap at this 2 hour mess...

I understand context is extremely important to any reception/interpretation of a text, but someone needs to tell V guy about the concept of the 'death of the author'.

firehawk12 wrote:

I understand context is extremely important to any reception/interpretation of a text, but someone needs to tell V guy about the concept of the 'death of the author'.

First of all, I am fairly confident _V_ already knows.

Secondly, you cannot have it both ways. The philosophy espoused in "Death of the Author" discards the context in which a work is made, and yet you yourself state that context is indeed important. How you have seemingly reconciled these two conflicting viewpoints has piqued my interest.

"death of the author" is a theory of criticism, not how you criticize literature. Some people such as V and I don't believe in death of the author, while I can't answer for V I simply see it that instead of searching for the true intention of a story "death of the author" is simply inserting your own bias into the series. You have a tendency to find what you want to find.

Top Gun wrote:

I have a very scientifically-oriented mind, so that whole idea of any interpretation being essentially equally valid, despite author evidence to the contrary, doesn't seem very rational to me.

For you I have a certain question.
What is it about rationality, insofar as you understand and make reference to it, that prevents divergent and incompatible interpretations of the same work of fiction to be equally true?
(As a supplementary question, to what degree does the fact your mind is scientifically-oriented — whatsoever this is to mean — lend support to the claim that you judge the pluralism of interpretation to be irrational?)

Further, you mention the fact that the series' creators did not intend the images to be interpreted as bearing a certain meaning, though all this uncontroversially establishes is the matter of what the authors intended.
The question that seems to be the crux of this discussion is whether there is any "importance" to the appearance of certain images in Evangelion, which is pre-theoretically distinct from the question of whether the creators of Evangelion intended these appearances to be so important. (The former question pertains to what, if anything, is true within a piece of fiction, wheras the latter question pertains to a strictly non-fictional domain.) You seemingly presuppose these two questions to be identical.

ikillchicken wrote:

If you claim that it is at least without addressing the open contradiction to what the creators have said...well then you're kinda wilfully spreading misinformation.

This is a fair thing to expect, and I presume it would be the duty of anyone who disagrees with the series' creators to address this disagreement. By maturely comparing the merits of their own claim with the authorial one, they can perhaps make their position more credible in spite of its divergence with an exclusively-informed source.

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