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Last edited by Splitter on Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

God, I really don't feel like raising all this up, especially since I never come here anymore... but whatever. I'm sick and tired of all this.

First off, I grew into my sexuality in main part thanks to lolicon. It wasn't that I was a pedophile. It was that the first porn I ever saw was a hentai, and wanting to see more hentai, I soon found out that most of it; fanart, doujinshi, fanfiction, video clips, movies... were for the most part featuring girls under the age of 18. Some far under the age of 18. Confused and curious, I explored further, and eventually accepted that I was a lolicon.

How did I feel about that? Guilty as hell. I thought I really was a pedophile. I felt disgusted with myself and my habit as I watched it grow and grow. I wondered where it would stop, afraid of where it would take me. I didn't want to be the creep on the 5 O'Clock News, and so I set out to change myself, and rid myself of my lolicon hentai habit. Through it, I discovered quite a few things about lolicons and the lolicon fetish in general.

1. The human body is a beautiful thing and anime heightens that beauty to unreachable peaks. A loli will always be a fantasy for as long as humanity exists. No one can have eyes that big, mouths that small, hair that's naturally pink, and a waist region that... "puffy". Especially not at the ages that are portrayed. We are simply embracing a fantasy. Anyone who has ever met a real little girl will know they are not the pink-cheeked, giggly, sexually curious creatures that inhabit the imageboards. As someone with a little sister who brought at least 3 friends home from school everday for many many years, I can attest that 99% of the female race are exactly the opposite.

2. Our brain interprets cuteness the same way it interprets arousal. It makes us feel happy. Naturally, there are probably times when these signals are misinterpreted for whatever reason, especially for teenagers and preteens just discovering this stuff. Personally, I believe this is what happened with me. We never grow up in the perfect way described in the textbooks. We all have different things happen to us at different times. For someone who has never been sexually attracted to anyone before, and is first looking at an animated naked 11-year-old, the feeling can be misconstrued for that reason, and the reason that they look like they are your age at that time.

3. We are not pedophiles. The many lolicons i have talked to over the internet have mostly been good decent people. Like all groups, there will always be a select few that ruin everything for everyone. I'm talking of course about the REAL pedophiles. The poor souls that let their desires escalate out of control without any restraint. Most normal people, even lolicons, never even contemplate the heinous acts that are fueled by the news. In fact, I'd deduce that there is some connection to the many chiid predator stories in the news, and the saturation of it all by the media, but that's a story for another time. Back on topic, we do not allow our internet desires to cross over into the real world.

4. Do you know what pictures are the most hated amongst the lolicon group? Straight lolicon, especially with older males. I'm not expecting any of you to have witnessed it before, but it's just plain vile. Most lolicons prefer to look at pictures of lolis by themselves or with older girls or other lolis. The innocence is what brings most to the taboo table, and it's one of the things that keeps me in check from letting my desires escalate out of the computer.

So I am not a bad person. I was confused and raised by the media into believing things about myself that were not entirely true. Once I was able to look past that, I was able to see that I am not attracted to lolicon, I simply have a very strong platonic love for cuteness. Hence, I have begun to dub myself as a "kawaiiphile". Since then, I am nearing my complete and utter banishment of loli hentai in my life. Since I still watch hentai and view yuri imageboards, it's impossible to escape it altogether. But I can control myself, look past it, and view what really heightens my sexual drive.

If any of this was already covered, sorry, but I had to say something. I was really tired of all the naysayers who are fueling the confusion of so many minds.

And like all pieces of creativity, they are all interpreted by everyone in different ways. Example: Ichigo Mashimaro. Don't assume how one person thinks is how everyone thinks.

Good day, all.

psycho 101 wrote:

1. Research for a project or dissertation.
2. Some sort of social study on society and how/why people function. This would include a broad spectrum of ideas, which lolicon would be a part of.
3. Any sort of Sociology or Psychology study on the human mind or human behavior patterns. There are much more "perverse" studies done in these fields then simple lolicon. How do you think we get names and labels for such diseases or conditions as pedophilia?
4. A professor doing research for a class seminar. There was another thread on a topic about Miyazaki's works and a college seminar based on a theory regarding them. So this is not far fetched at all.

And you think anyone of those if profesional would be needing to download a large library of examples off the internet for any of these excuses? Just how many examples of child porn does one need before they get the overall idea of why it exists?

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5.A true "otaku collector." I know many a people who collect perverse items because they fall into a topic or hobby they collect. Serious collectors acquire all aspects of items from their chosen hobby. The bad and the good. A prime example is any die hard WWII collector. Ask one what kinds of death camp/holocaust items they have because it's part of that war, and thus their hobby. Real collectors don't discriminate between bad and good items in their chosen hobby. They simply collect.

So are you saying that there is a collector of WWII items that has a surviving can of Ziclon B on the collection shelf then, or a bone or two of the victims? Because that would be the only perverse aspect of that catagory. In other words that would be a bit extreme and not something those collectors should want to boost about in public, or show off to frends and family at dinner parties.

I wrote:

I have heard it to describe girls with no chest, small girls under 16, and to refer to the sextual use of loli's in hentai. I suppose that lolicon being used to describe girl characters in hentai that are under 16 was something that was made up by a person who made it or viewed it...sorta like a slang term for it. But the actual definition wasn't always a sextual depiction of young girls but just what you would call a little girl or any girl with a small chest and child like features (you use shotacon to refer to little boys) in a anime. Course this is just what I gathered from diffrent sources and what people told me so if I am wrong please correct me.

Thats what I wrote a few pages back of what I have heard loli to describe. blind_assassin put up a winkipedia definition about the lolita complex which basically stated its sextual context. I apparently am wrong in a few parts in there since lolicon has always been used to describe a sextual use of small girl characters. But it can also be used to describe anime about young girls or girls with small chests.

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psycho 101 wrote:

1. Research for a project or dissertation.
2. Some sort of social study on society and how/why people function. This would include a broad spectrum of ideas, which lolicon would be a part of.
3. Any sort of Sociology or Psychology study on the human mind or human behavior patterns. There are much more "perverse" studies done in these fields then simple lolicon. How do you think we get names and labels for such diseases or conditions as pedophilia?
4. A professor doing research for a class seminar. There was another thread on a topic about Miyazaki's works and a college seminar based on a theory regarding them. So this is not far fetched at all.
And you think anyone of those if profesional would be needing to download a large library of examples off the internet for any of these excuses? Just how many examples of child porn does one need before they get the overall idea of why it exists?

Any real study requires tons of data and information. You cannot make a very good study based on a few examples. Regardless of what they study is it takes countless amounts of data, observation, interviews, etc. That's simply how it works. If the study was on pornography/loli then yea it would take a lot of material to present any sort of factual study. The process is no different then the time it takes coke to figure out coke with lime is a good product. Countless hours of testing, study, and everything else. Otherwise you're just running your mouth off like an ignorant fool..........

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5.A true "otaku collector." I know many a people who collect perverse items because they fall into a topic or hobby they collect. Serious collectors acquire all aspects of items from their chosen hobby. The bad and the good. A prime example is any die hard WWII collector. Ask one what kinds of death camp/holocaust items they have because it's part of that war, and thus their hobby. Real collectors don't discriminate between bad and good items in their chosen hobby. They simply collect.
So are you saying that there is a collector of WWII items that has a surviving can of Ziclon B on the collection shelf then, or a bone or two of the victims? Because that would be the only perverse aspect of that catagory. In other words that would be a bit extreme and not something those collectors should want to boost about in public, or show off to frends and family at dinner parties.

There could photos of victims, other death camp items besides just bones. Many of them would socially taboo given the history behind them. Those collectors would and DO show this stuff off. They have get togethers and parties with their friends and other collectors. There are such things as "collector parties" (for lack of better term) where these people do exactly that. They're not doing it for pleasure or gratification, they're doing it to show case their collection and work. Many anime fanboys/girls do the same. They show off their figures, dvd collections, and other stuff to friends and other collectors. There's a damn thread here about "showing your dvd holders for your anime collection."

Steve Berry wrote:

That seems rather broad Mohawk52, don't you think? You seem to be implying, of course, that all loli is sexualized in content, but I don't think that's what others are saying.

It would appear they are being a bit nieve, or in denial. I don't fall under that catagory and so can not hold such comprehensions by definition.

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I understand what a "lolita complex" is-- I've read Nabokov. But the whole thing about his Lolita is that its a very sexualized portrait, obviously. People seem to be suggesting that there is loli that isn't sexualized. As I'm not a fan, I guess I'm curious how its being defined. Of course, even using the term loli is...well... not the best choice of words in English, if one is really trying to spread the gospel that there are non-sexualized images that are loli-- as "lolita" is a sexually charged word in English, from the get-go. If this sort of category exists, it should really have an entirely different name, IMO-- just as a PR type of thing.

i couldn't agree more, but by and large just the mear mention of the term "loli" can and will infuse people to think of the whole spectrum of what that means. I myself am doing it now I admit it.

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I guess, what I'm asking here, because some people seem to be suggesting it, is this-- is "loli" sexualized? What are examples of loli? Does loli just mean "super-cute" slightly "super-deformed" characters?

No, that usually falls under the term of "moe"

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Or does it mean sexualized images of kids, drawn in an anime style? What's the difference between loli and loli hentai, a difference which some people seem to be suggesting exists? If there is a difference, which one is being discussed in this thread?

To me "loli" is short for Lolita Complex" and all aspects that that includes.

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Because, in essence, I feel like there are 2 conversations going on here-- 1) one is about sexualized anime images of pre-pubescent children (either having sex, being raped, or just that the image is sexualized in some way) and the ramifications of that type of image, and 2) the other is about how not all loli is sexualized, etc etc. and it shouldn't be judeged as hentai.

Can anyone else see how these 2 subjects shouldn't even really be in the same thread? And that non-loli fans are obviously confused about what is being discussed here, confusing things, etc.?? Some clarification would be helpful.

Well someone has just said it was about loli hentai and if you want to talk about anime based on the activities of cute kids in SDC mode maybe there should be a Moe thread, but there have been a few of them here already.

Ugh, took me almost 2 hours to clean this thread up. Just as an update, naruto fan 09812 has PMed psycho 101 and myself with apologies, and he has also stated that he will refrain from further posting in this thread. I will PM him with some advice and hopefully he'll learn something for future use.

So..., enjoy the rest of the discussion (until something else pops up again -_-...)

I think many defended my points well while I was unable to reply, but I'll address everything myself too.

daxomni wrote:

For instance, I've read time and again that studies appear to show that children who watch violent imagery on a regular basis are more likely to be violent toward others and children who join gangs are more likely to engage in criminal activity than children who do not. Environmental influences can play a role in who we become and just because a given influence can't make us into a predator all on its own doesn't mean that they're all harmless.

Since studies show this do you wish to ban all violent games, movies, TV shows, etc? Also, these studies are rather flawed, in that many seem to ignore the far greater influence of parental upbringing.

Here's an interesting thought: there are numerous studies which show that children in two parent homes are less likely to do drugs, drink before being of legal age, smoke, commit crimes, etc. Should we have a ban on single mothers or father's raising children?

The studies only showed that some children might be affected, not that the material in question actually caused anything. Anything might affect anyone and convince them to do anything. Unless there is a clear causation, I don't think the government has any right to make something illegal.

I don't recall claiming that lolicon hentai or general lolicon material was "harmless," simply that the degree of "harm" was minimal as there is no real victim. The slight chance that this material might encourage a predator is no more of less than other other pornographic or violent media.

daxomni wrote:

If it's real enough for people to get off to then it's potentially real enough to affect their thinking. After all, it's the emotional and rational impact of lolicon that's the main issue and not necessarily the specific level of realism.

The same argument can be applied to violent games, movies, music, books, and even a person's own imagination. This impact is not significant enough to warrant a legal ban.

Also, how do you enforce a law based on emotional impact?

The level of realism is actually quite important as it is possible to create artificially imagery that is indistinguishable to the untrained eye from the real thing. A loli hentai is clearly not a depiction or real girls but there are programs which can create images that appear real. (Don't ask me what they are, I'm only familiar with non-pronographic uses of such technology and then only the actual resulting imagery.)

daxomni wrote:

I think you're viewing this issue in far too discrete terms

Perhaps I am. I freely admit that I could be wrong about all of this.

daxomni wrote:

This position is surprisingly common, but it appears to be based in little more than urban myth.

The idea that violent or sexual media influences people enough to cause an actual increase in crime is barely above the level of urban myth. However, your point is taken and I agree that I have not heard of such studies either. (I imagine it would be very difficult to perform such a study given the intense level of malice people direct towards those who have sexual desires aimed at children. If you were a pedophile, would you want volunteer for such a study?)

My intent wasn't to suggest that watching loli hentai or collecting dolls necessarily prevented crime. Rather I was saying that if a person who would otherwise commit a crime could be satisfied by the hentai and dolls, then that would strike me as a good trade off.

daxomni wrote:

The government didn't have any cold scientific facts to the contrary when it decided that Vioxx was safe enough to release onto the market. Thousands of deaths later the government finally decided that it had enough facts to pull the drug off the market. Is this really how you think our government should work?

If things didn't work like this, you wouldn't have any medication on the market because ALL medicine can adversely affect or even kill a portion of the population. My mother could easily be killed if her doctor gave her a barbiturate.

Clearly, someone screwed up with Vioxx, but do you really like the idea of potentially life-saving medical breakthroughs being suppressed by the government? How much study and debate should there be before we give someone who's dying or in pain a medicine that might cure them?

Far more people die from the illnesses these medicines treat than from the medicines. Should we stop getting inoculated against illnesses because a statistically small number of people die every year from them? No, I think not.

Richard J. wrote:

The United States is not a theocracy and neither is Canada.

daxomni wrote:

Both the US and Canada have banned lolicon based on my reading of the laws.

You missed my point entirely here. What I was saying is that religious morality shouldn't be dictating law in this country as we are not a theocratic state. If the government writes a law, it should be based on emotionless reality not a sermon.

While I believe that the country as a whole would benefit from a revival of religion in people's lives, I would call for open rebellion if the government tried to tell me I had to go to church and start praying. We live in a democratic republic and we have the First Amendment, ergo the government should not be deciding laws based on the morals of one religion.

The government should neither support nor suppress any church (unless it breaks the law) and it should not write laws without being able to show a clear reason for why they are necessary. I do not believe that anti-lolicon laws can be shown to have a legitimate effect on the crime rate, thus I can not support them.

Morally, I find the debate silly. They're drawings. They aren't real. To equate drawings to real child pornography is ridiculous and I feel demeaning to the real-life victims. To argue such a thing is to invite the complete sanitization of all fiction, because no law ever remains in a vacuum.

I apologize for the LONG post.

*Edit: My spellchecker turned daxomni into a a mild curse. Sorry! Embarassed

This thread was seriously going down the drain for sometime (which is why I decided to stop posting here). But it looks like it's getting better now... some of the more recent, more intelligent posts have influenced me to post in this thread again. So, going back a bit where I left off...

daxomni wrote:

What about those personal desires you once expressed about Mii and perhaps a half dozen other child characters? If that's not considered serious loli love then I don't know what is. Did you take those comments down or something?

While I seriously love Mii to bits, pretty much all of them were based solely upon cuteness. I'll say that I'm a serious fan of cute characters (who are often children), but other than Mii (who is purposely portrayed in such a way and was orginally created for the purpose), I generally don't look at pornographic images of them. I like them for their cuteness and character rather than their sexual appeal.

daxomni wrote:

If you also refrain from making posts like your top ten loli target list then folks like Zac will probably be satisfied.

Which is why I have made all posts regarding loli on my LJ private from now on. Really wasn't in good taste to make something like that public either... While I was mainly saying that thing about Mii in a joking manner, you weren't the only one who was upset with that post...

AirCooledMan_2006 wrote:

That doesn't change the fact that lolicon (And its male counterpart, shotacon) can still potentially cause an image problemme for us otakus.

I am sorry to say that otaku already have a pretty negative image even without loli.

psycho 101 wrote:

If the US has banned lolicon why is there an actual loliCON? Why is it sold here then? Why is it sold in a PUBLICLY held event like a convention? How the hell could they even have a public convention here on this product if it was illegal? I'm sorry but no, lolicon is not illegal here. Now, the lolicon hentai is a different matter. You people in this thread clumping them together need to wake up and understand they are 2 different products and not the same. Hence, they are subject to different moral/legal regulations. I would also love to see the actual law itself in it's text from England. I would suspect it refers to lolicon hentai more specifically.

Actually, daxomni is correct. Loli is illegal in the US. I don't have the official law saying so, but I'm sure these sources would suffice:

animenewsnetwork.com/news/2005-03-27/man-faces-life-in-prison-over-anime-child-porn
http://www.wric.com/Global/story.asp?s=3123260

The thing about this is, he was already a convicted child sex offender, and that's mainly why the pressed charges. So, the law exists, but it's not really ever put into effect... They mainly just use it to press additional charges upon already convicted criminals (like this guy). There has yet to be (and I hope never will be) anybody arrested solely for being in the possession of loli. Although, there are already other unconstitutional laws in existance so it wouldn't surprise me...

Splitter wrote:

4. Do you know what pictures are the most hated amongst the lolicon group? Straight lolicon, especially with older males. I'm not expecting any of you to have witnessed it before, but it's just plain vile. Most lolicons prefer to look at pictures of lolis by themselves or with older girls or other lolis. The innocence is what brings most to the taboo table, and it's one of the things that keeps me in check from letting my desires escalate out of the computer.

Good point, and something I completely forgot to bring up. There are even separate boards for it on many lolicon sites...

Ok PG not trying to be rude but you're wrong plain and simple. This does NOT mean there is an anti-loli law. Let me point some things out from those links.

Quote:

Whorley is the first person to be charged under a new child pornography law that can apply to cartoons

.

Key word being CAN be applied. No where does it say this law is for "cartoons" specifically. It says it can be applied. Which means legally it can be added on to a pre-existing charge or conviction/parole violation. Plus this doesn't mention loli or anime specifically. It says cartoons. Read my previous post again and pay close attention to the part where I mention that the cartoon has to be a reasonable facsimile to a person. If loli/hentai were illegal they could not be sold PG end of discussion. Nor could a con be held in a public center for this material.

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Additional information concerning this case suggests that the individual was originally convicted on federal charges of receiving child pornography. As a part of his parole, he was prohibited from viewing any pornographic material. As such, the case against this man appears to be due to a parole violation, not a "new child pornography law", as the original article suggested. ANN will continue to follow this story as it develops.

Did you even read this before saying there is a law? It clearly says "not a new child porn law." If you're on parole for sex offense you can't view A N Y T H I N G
that even remotely can be construed as porn. No playboy, no penthouse, no adult fantasy drawings (Luis Royo for instance), no hentai, no nothing with boobs and ass of any kind. I challenge you to find a real law that says specifically hentai/loli/cartoon "porn" is illegal. Not some add on charge to pre-existing charges and convictions. An actual full blown law. If you can the site the state the law is from, and the law itself, I can find out without a shadow of a doubt if it's real or not. All I have to do is back to my college and use the criminal justice computer lab and log on to a nice nifty site that looks up laws and regulations. The other key point to remember is there is a difference between State Law, and Federal Law. Just cause a few states ban/or allow something, example being gay marriage, does not mean there is a federal law on the subject.

Last edited by PantsGoblin on Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

Thinking back on what actually triggered my interest in loli, I'll have to say it probably started back when Cardcaptors first airred... At the time (6 or 7 years ago) I was about 14 or 15. Did having an attraction for a character who's 10 really seem that odd at this time? It really didn't to me... Due to the laws of the world, I grew older while she stayed the same age. Now being 21 with an attraction for a 10 year old seems odd, doesn't it? (If you just look at those facts) But if you look at the whole thing it's actually just the same attraction I've kept with me. Is there anything really odd about it looking at it like this? I honestly don't think so... I'd be willing to bet the same thing has happened to many lolicon. Having an attraction when they were younger but still keeping the same attraction to the chracters when they get older... Just something I wanted to bring up.

EDIT:

psycho 101 wrote:

If loli/hentai were illegal they could not be sold PG end of discussion.

I don't particularly think this is a good point. Bootlegs are illegal and are easy to find and purchase. I can think of other things too...

For a change of pace from responding to other posts I have a question of my own. Why are you silly little "loli haters" not bashing shoto? Why have none of you complainers made a shoto thread and bash that as well? You're only flamming one side of the equation here. If you're gonna be rude you might as well go the whole way and not do it half assed, or is it because a woman looking at little boys is ok?

Last edited by Kiba17 on Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

To psycho-
I'm pretty sure it's because nobody really cares about the turnout of little boys in anime or hentai or at all, because they'll probably grow up to be sick and/or twisted anyway, due to the world being the way it is. Declining in morals, Declining in standards and Inclining in laziness, both physically and mentally.

psycho 101 wrote:

If you're gonna be rude you might as well go the whole way and not do it half assed, or is it because a woman looking at little boys is ok?

Y'know - when I see a news story about a Hot Female teacher shagging one of her students... I think... "Why didn't that happen to me?" or "That kid was a lucky little bastard." Laughing

That brings about a nice point on the double-standard. Many issues, especially gender, have double-standards. While it looks hypocritical (which it is), that's basically how it is.

If I say, Sexual Predator, what type of person first comes to mind?

Kyuu, I've made arguments against that sort of thing plenty of times. I remember there was a thread here a good while back where a bunch of people were congratulating someone on the fact that there was a 20 something year old woman trying to have sex with him (or so it was implied) when he was around 12 or so. In contrast, my instant response was "What the hell is wrong with you people? We're talking about a ****ing pedophile here." No one even seemed to consider that what the person was describing was both illegal and disgusting, not to mention that it was extremely dangerous because he never actually found out her intentions with him (she could've wanted to rape him or maybe she could've wanted to just cut his throat and dump him in a lake).

And Daxomni, Lolicon is illegal in the states but not in Canada. I've posted the actual Canadian Criminal code as it stands at this moment regarding the legal definition of Child Pornography. Lolicon was found to not be actual Child porn but could suffice if the content posed a significant risk of harm to any minors (such as the case with Sharpe and the man arrested in Edmonton).

I don't really understand how people consider loli to be unsexual in any of its forms. A lolita complex might not qualify as a paraphelia in the same sense that pedophilia does but it specifies a special feeling towards an illegal age group or a member of said age group in a sexual sense. If you meant it in an unsexual way then you would say "young girl" or "kid". If you honestly aren't trying to link it to lolicon hentai then why would you say lolita or loli? That would be like drawing a swastika to symbolize peace. Yes, the original swastika/manji meant that but the link to the Nazis is not only unbelievably easy to make, it isn't wrong most of the time. I'm not comparing loli to Nazis but the way they both trigger a reaction is pretty much the same.

I don't know where or when it was started but I heard people on here use loli to mean alot of things, same for any word, after all gay didn't always mean you were homosextual. I use it to describe types of characters, girls with small breast in anime, or young looking characters. This was before I knew the word moe. So for me I never really thought about loli being a negative word, I had heard the word used a few years back but I didn't know what it meant til I came on to ANN. Maybe I should change over to moe or maybe people should ask before jumping to conclusions on here since it is used alot here to describe alot of characters.

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