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Greed1914
It's Over 9000!It's Over 9000!


Joined: 28 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:51 pm Reply with quote
Cool to hear the AX podcast is still happening. That tends to be one of the more entertaining ANNcasts for me.

And yeah, I can't see the MHA screening at AX being more than one episode. As much as I'd like to see production running so smoothly that they were months ahead, I can't believe they are far enough ahead to have more than one episode ready to go.
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angelmcazares
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Joined: 23 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:16 pm Reply with quote
I have become a big fan of the Attack on Titan anime over the years, but the use of Holocaust imagery and Jewish persecution parallels is extremely misguided. I am more or less used to anime being oblivious towards non-Japanese people, but stuff with Nazis and related topics is beyond what I can tolerate.

Supposedly Isayama confirmed season 4 of the anime. Hopefully the Jewish oppression inspired arc is only a bump on the road because the story had been smart up to that point. I would love to hear what Jacob Chapman thinks about AoT post basement reveals.
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Sherris



Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Posts: 176
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:21 pm Reply with quote
angelmcazares wrote:
I have become a big fan of the Attack on Titan anime over the years, but the use of Holocaust imagery and Jewish persecution parallels is extremely misguided. I am more or less used to anime being oblivious towards non-Japanese people, but stuff with Nazis and related topics is beyond what I can tolerate.

Supposedly Isayama confirmed season 4 of the anime. Hopefully the Jewish oppression inspired arc is only a bump on the road because the story had been smart up to that point. I would love to hear what Jacob Chapman thinks about AoT post basement reveals.


Why? Is using less-than-noble events from the human history in fiction wrong? Why are you trying to censor creators? Don't like - don't watch/read.
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typhonkona



Joined: 06 Feb 2019
Posts: 29
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:57 pm Reply with quote
Speaking of which....are reviews of Sarazanmai stopping? Because it says the last review was episode 8. and I really do enjoy those reviews...
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KitKat1721



Joined: 03 Feb 2015
Posts: 218
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:01 pm Reply with quote
Super excited to see a new ANNCast notification pop up, just in time for my commute as well!

I think if I had to rank the Ikuhara series, I'd probably rank them (favorite to least) Penguindrum, Utena, Yuri Kuma Arashi, and then lastly Sarazanmai, but I really love all of them. Penguindrum feels a bit messier at times and covers a bunch of different themes, but the emotional impact hit me just as hard as Utena did, if not stronger, both times I've seen it. I did like how accessible Sarazanmai was, which felt like a new take compared to the much more surreal and fable-like Yuri Kuma. Plus, it hands down got the best dub treatment out of all the his shows, which is just an extra incentive for buying it on blu-ray later on.

I don't have much to say on Attack on Titan yet since I feel like if I look more into it, I'm just going to find a bunch of manga spoilers, but it does feel a bit collar-tugging just off initial reactions. I think there's only one or two more episodes this season though, so I might be waiting a while.

Hearing all the Sailor Moon Crystal talk has just made me more appreciate of how the Fruits Basket reboot is being handled on all accounts. Loved the manga for years, and its still appointment viewing for me along with the over-in-a-few-days Dororo. I'm also super excited for that Otakon voice actor/actress panel (even though I'm slightly more attached to the dub) since that was a complete surprise.
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db999



Joined: 23 Dec 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:20 pm Reply with quote
For Attack on Titan, it's actually distinctly Anti-Fascist, and I disagree that it's anti-semitic. I'm Jewish and when this first showed up I was worried, but my worries were eventually proven wrong. If I believed it was anti-semitic I wouldn't keep reading/watching the series. I know I don't speak for everyone but the rest of the series has proven to me that he knows what he's doing. I think once we get to season 4 and people start seeing the rest of the manga adapted these worries about it being pro-fascist and anti-semitic will go away. Maybe the last few chapters of the manga will prove me wrong, but I think the series so far handles its themes really well.
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BodaciousSpacePirate
It's Over 9000!It's Over 9000!


Joined: 17 Apr 2015
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:41 am Reply with quote
Regarding that Polygon article: I feel as though anyone who claims to be up-to-date with the Attack on Titan manga, yet doesn't discuss the effect that (MAJOR manga spoiler) spoiler[the shift towards Eren as the primary antagonist] has on the story's themes, is being more than a little misleading. I'll save the author's suggestion that a big-nosed titan "looked Jewish" for someone with more grace than I have at the moment. Sad
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gsilver



Joined: 04 Nov 2007
Posts: 367
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:52 am Reply with quote
typhonkona wrote:
Speaking of which....are reviews of Sarazanmai stopping? Because it says the last review was episode 8. and I really do enjoy those reviews...

I think that they’re just behind. You’ll notice that the episode 8 review was only a week ago.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2019 12:11 pm Reply with quote
Speaking of bad representation of the Holocaust in shonen anime/manga, anyone else think it's awkward that Stroheim from Jojo has that shower thing?
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Dragonsandphoenix



Joined: 21 Jan 2015
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Location: Malaysia
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:25 am Reply with quote
Quote:
I think if I had to rank the Ikuhara series, I'd probably rank them (favorite to least) Penguindrum, Utena, Yuri Kuma Arashi, and then lastly Sarazanmai, but I really love all of them. Penguindrum feels a bit messier at times and covers a bunch of different themes, but the emotional impact hit me just as hard as Utena did, if not stronger, both times I've seen it. I did like how accessible Sarazanmai was, which felt like a new take compared to the much more surreal and fable-like Yuri Kuma. Plus, it hands down got the best dub treatment out of all the his shows, which is just an extra incentive for buying it on blu-ray later on.


Pretty much this. Sarazanmai also does feel like the most grounded work of Ikuhara's. I agree with Jacob Chapman when he said that you can pretty much ignore all the metaphorical stuff and enjoy it for what it is. Also did Zac and Lynzee call Haruka Kazuki's sister?

I can't wait to catch up on Attack on Titan so I can have an opinion on it.
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octopodpie
ANN Managing Editor


Joined: 02 May 2011
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Location: Washington State
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:25 pm Reply with quote
We (or just I) did at first but Zac corrected me in the podcast and I replied that he was right. That's when he joked about e-mailing my editor.
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bleachj0j



Joined: 22 Nov 2008
Posts: 804
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:36 pm Reply with quote
Sherris wrote:
angelmcazares wrote:
I have become a big fan of the Attack on Titan anime over the years, but the use of Holocaust imagery and Jewish persecution parallels is extremely misguided. I am more or less used to anime being oblivious towards non-Japanese people, but stuff with Nazis and related topics is beyond what I can tolerate.

Supposedly Isayama confirmed season 4 of the anime. Hopefully the Jewish oppression inspired arc is only a bump on the road because the story had been smart up to that point. I would love to hear what Jacob Chapman thinks about AoT post basement reveals.


Why? Is using less-than-noble events from the human history in fiction wrong? Why are you trying to censor creators? Don't like - don't watch/read.


I don't think Titan is anti-Semitic either, but criticism of an author doesn't equal censorship. I wish people could understand that simple fact.
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Mad_Scientist
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Joined: 08 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:34 am Reply with quote
I've said this before, but for AoT my view is that Isayama did something that I see other writers do all the time, actually, just in a particularly blatant way. That is:

- Create some sort of fantasy or sci-fi group that doesn't exist in reality. Aliens, androids, mutants, elves, vampires, etc.
- Establish that this group is oppressed/hated/feared by others.
- Then either a) make this fake oppressed group an analogy or a metaphor for a real life oppressed group, or b) borrow the imagery associated with the oppression and hatred of a real life oppressed group, or c) both.
- Not think this through or consider the extremely unfortunate implications this can have if you're not very, very, very careful.

This is, again, super common. Consider X-men, where the mutants have been metaphors for... well, literally every oppressed group in existence pretty much, depending on the specific work in question. Consider Detroit: Beyond Human, which has been drastically criticized by some for it's, uh, okay that's honestly a big can of worms that I'm not even gonna get into. It's been criticized, I'll just say. Or just consider one of the bajillion fantasy series with the classic LotR inspired elves/dwarves/halflings/etc that decides to then go for social commentary with them.

The thing is, most of the time, these series avoid blatant imagery associated with the Holocaust. I say most of the time, because hey sometimes you'll get blatant death camp imagery at the end of your convoluted segregation metaphor. *cough cough* spoiler[Detroit: Beyond Human] *cough cough*. But yeah, most of the time you don't get things like ghettos with inhabitants forced to wear star armbands.

I can't say why Isayama made the choice he did. I don't think he was malicious. Admittedly part of it that I'm caught up with the manga now, and though he makes one other extremely questionable plot decision, a lot of the other decisions, his depiction of certain things, and the themes that I think he's going for are making me give him the benefit of doubt. I could be wrong though, of course.

Another aspect that I think wasn't really gotten into is that the Eldians aren't just an oppressed people that live outside the walls, all the people inside the walls, every single character on the show aside from exceptions like Mikasa who is half Asian, is an Eldian. Because for complicated reasons the show hasn't fully explained a bunch of Eldians are living on an isolated island inside the three walls, and had their memories altered by a previous king to make them think they were the last of humanity. This was something that wasn't really addressed in the podcast, but I think that if we accept that the Eldians are a Jew analogue, at least partially, the fact that this therefore means all the heroes are Jew analogues makes it more likely that the unfortunate implications were the result of clumsy writing rather than outright malice.

I think part of what the story was going for was a series of horrifying revelations that would force the characters, especially Eren, to reconsider their viewpoint on the world. Eren is obsessed with killing the titans, is determined to wipe out every last one of them. But from the moment he becomes able to transform into a titan, the revelation raises uncomfortable questions about what the other, mindless titans actually are. And sure enough, it becomes obvious as the series goes on that the titans, all titans, are just transformed humans.

And then you learn that they're not just any humans, they're specifically Eldians, a race that in fact is horribly oppressed on the outside world, and living in a sort of exile inside the walls. And that all those titans they've been killing were Eldians from the outside world who were punished, who can be sent to Paradis and turned into titans for virtually any "crime", including simply walking outside a ghetto without an armband on. The titans weren't monsters, they were innocent victims. It turns out the real monsters... was man! Dun dun dun.

Okay, jokes aside, yeah, that's a very common plot point, but it's also one that, if delivered effectively, can be very powerful. And the shift in perspective from "the titans are our enemy! They wiped out all humans outside the walls" to "actually, there are billions of humans outside the walls... and they pretty much all want you dead. The titans didn't wipe them out, they're really their victims, it was other humans, specifically human bigotry, that you've been fighting against this whole time" was in many ways delivered effectively. It was powerful. People talk about plot moments in stories that "change everything", but often that's overstated, overblown. This time everything really did change.

It's just, there's one problem. And it's a big "why?" moment.

Why, why, why, whyyyyyyyyyyyy, why did Isayama use those star armbands, plus a couple other things? Why? The exact same story could have been told with a different visual marker for the Eldians, and while it still would have had some uncomfortable aspects, it wouldn't have been the same. So much of this controversy could have been avoided if he just hadn't used that imagery.

It makes me sigh. I consider myself so far a defender of AoT, I don't think it's fascist and I don't think it's anywhere near as gross/uncomfortable as some people have said it is, but it's just, it's kinda hard to defend it sometimes thanks to things like that.
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Dragonsandphoenix



Joined: 21 Jan 2015
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Location: Malaysia
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:56 am Reply with quote
Welp I just caught up with Attack on Titan. It's my favorite season thus far, I sometimes cannot explain why I like the show so much, it's just a very well-executed pulpy action war story. It has some complicated themes but it's within the framework of a very accessible mainstream premise.

I confess that I wasn't that bothered by the controversial imagery. I've been reading around and trying to understand the different perspectives but I didn't have a visceral reaction to it. Speaking as a Southeast Asian, we just didn't learn about the Holocaust in school and if we did know about it it would be from the internet, and even then I can mostly understand it in abstract. I am planning to better understand the emotional weight of it by visiting memorials and museum exhibits though.

For my money, I don't think AOT is fascist but I trust the opinions of those who found it problematic. I also do believe that Isayama was just using the imagery to depict the plight of an oppressed people but he didn't realise the full implications.

Interestingly no one is discussing the nuke imagery. Isayama is just using all this imagery to tackle themes of war and I think he's doing a pretty good job so far.
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