Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: In the Clear Moonlit Dusk
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A Mystery
 Posts: 1962 Location: Netherlands |
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Interesting review.
It's also dawn on me that while sexual assault was already a no and a serious topic in real life for a long time, in fiction it was until recently fairly common for the guy to cross boundaries of the girl, as long as he's hot. Also commonly the bad boy type. He rushed to get in the infirmary bed with Yoi, without her permission. Furthermore, she feels ill and is therefore more vulnerable. She tells him to get out. He instead moves closer to her. If I were Yoi, he would've been out. I would tell school, call the police, I'd break off all communication and I certainly wouldn't want to be near him ever again. It feels like the time I dated someone for the first time. We kissed, I didn't want another kiss. I repeatedly told him I didn't want another. I repeatedly struggled to leave. He kept kissing me. That's exactly what is happening here. I would've felt helpless and furious in that situation as Yoi. Don't ever think this kind of behavior is okay, men and women. Don't go trampling on other people's boundaries. And don't let anybody tell you that you should experience and like intimacy if you do not want to. |
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explodingpompoms
 Posts: 21 |
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I tried to do the homework! It was a little difficult, I'm not super well-read manga-wise. Ouran's the obvious one (I've only seen the anime, not actually read it) with various characters wanting Haruhi to present femininely more often.
I feel like this also came up in Special A at some point (again, only seen the anime and that one was a LONG time ago, this question reminded me it existed). I'm sure that one at least had the "girl can't cook like a girl should" plot that appears across demographics. As for the last one, Basara spoiler[has the protagonist impersonating her brother, and I believe the pressure there is mostly internal as she falls in love and generally feels the weight of her role. As much as it's about wanting to be seen a girl/feminine, it's also about wanting to be herself again.] That's not too big of a spoiler, but just in case. "Is having boys and men ignore one's bodily autonomy an inherent element of women's experiences?" got me thinking about a lot of different things from the way it maps onto dynamics in shoujo such as Banana Fish or Requiem of the Rose King, to the way that gender options in video games mainly impacts your romance options more than anything else. I don't have any complete thoughts there yet, but I'm thinking. Honestly, there's so much good stuff this season that I'm not sure I can justify sticking with this show since I'm not really enjoying it, but this is a really fun format for a review! |
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Duck Du Normandie
 SubscriberPosts: 74 |
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I like your review approach to this one. Maybe thinking deeply about it will make me forget the weird misshapen hands that pop up randomly.
I found it interesting that after watching episode 2, I started thinking about 'Tomo-chan Is a Girl!' from a couple years ago. (I had basically forgotten about it soon after it finished airing, but it popped back into my head again. I had to scroll through my Watched list because I couldn't quite remember the name.) If I remember correctly, Tomo-chan isn't presented as the traditional school prince, but she does seem to be perceived as a ...maybe Yankee prince? And one of the main conflicts is the idea that, until she "acts like a girl should" she won't get to be in "real" love or someone's girlfriend. I think I'll try re-watching that as I watch this. It'll be interesting to compare/contrast how each one handles it. |
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TJ_Kat
Posts: 880 Location: Saskatoon, Canada |
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I like Yoi's gal pals. They seem fun. True stars of the show
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Shay Guy
 Posts: 2653 |
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*insert essay on James Joyce's characterization of "yes" as a "female word" that "denotes acquiescence, self-abandon, relaxation, the end of all resistance"*
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A Mystery
Posts: 1962 Location: Netherlands |
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This review is hilarious. Now I cannot stop watching the show, because I wouldn't enjoy the reviews as much then.
Okay, I'll be a good girl and answer these questions. Won't call myself a woman even though I'm 36 years old, girl sounds more cute and demure. I googled and found on Wikipedia These are the rules as named in the original book. Be a "Creature Unlike Any Other" Don't Talk to a Man First (and Don't Ask Him to Dance) Don't Stare at Men or Talk Too Much Don't Meet Him Halfway or Go Dutch on a Date Don't Call Him and Rarely Return His Calls Always End Phone Calls First Don't Accept a Saturday Night Date after Wednesday Fill Up Your Time before the Date How to Act on Dates 1, 2, and 3 How to Act on Dates 4 through Commitment Time Always End the Date First Stop Dating Him if He Doesn't Buy You a Romantic Gift for Your Birthday or Valentine's Day Don't See Him More than Once or Twice a Week No More than Casual Kissing on the First Date Don't Rush into Sex and Other Rules for Intimacy Don't Tell Him What to Do Let Him Take the Lead Don't Expect a Man to Change or Try to Change Him Don't Open Up Too Fast Be Honest but Mysterious Accentuate the Positive and Other Rules for Personal Ads Don't Live with a Man (or Leave Your Things in His Apartment) Don't Date a Married Man Slowly Involve Him in Your Family and Other Rules for Women with Children Practice, Practice, Practice! (or, Getting Good at The Rules) Even if You're Engaged or Married, You Still Need The Rules Do The Rules, Even when Your Friends and Parents Think It's Nuts Be Smart and Other Rules for Dating in High School Take Care of Yourself and Other Rules for Dating in College Next! and Other Rules for Dealing with Rejection Don't Discuss The Rules with Your Therapist Don't Break The Rules Do The Rules and You'll Live Happily Ever After! Love Only Those Who Love You Be Easy to Live With What do I think of these rules? Be a "Creature Unlike Any Other" I don't even have to try, I'm already unique. But I don't try to be more normal or more unique. Just me. Yoi doesn't seem to change herself for others, which is good. Don't Talk to a Man First (and Don't Ask Him to Dance) If you want to lower the chance of getting a date... This is the way. Yoi does a good job of defying this rule. Don't Stare at Men or Talk Too Much I like to talk. Staring too much is inappropriate for all creatures. Didn't see the show commenting on this Don't Meet Him Halfway or Go Dutch on a Date I am Dutch, so that's too difficult. It's also unfair that the guy needs to pay all those first failed dates. I think Ichimura wouldn't let Yoi pay. Don't Call Him and Rarely Return His Calls That's how you end up alone. Always End Phone Calls First Why end a fun conversation early? Just end it when you or he/she wants to. Don't Accept a Saturday Night Date after Wednesday Don't tell me what to do. Fill Up Your Time before the Date Why How to Act on Dates 1, 2, and 3 How to Act on Dates 4 through Commitment Time ? Always End the Date First End the date at a safe time. You have to get home safely. You don't want to risk missing the bus or train and having to stay the night when you weren't ready for that yet. Stop Dating Him if He Doesn't Buy You a Romantic Gift for Your Birthday or Valentine's Day I do like a gift for my birthday but don't a lot of people do? Valentine's is nonsense. Don't See Him More than Once or Twice a Week If you like someone and he also wants to see you more, than do so. People want to know if you're enthusiastic!! So the don't be too eager thing is weird gender logic. No More than Casual Kissing on the First Date You gotta know if he's a keeper, you only know if you gotta keep him is if he's been put to the test! If you're ready to kiss of course, only do it when you want it. Don't Rush into Sex and Other Rules for Intimacy If you like to do it, do it. Sex and intimacy are for fun. And you immediately know if you wanna skip him or keep him. He terrible at communicating in bed? You wanna know that as soon as you are ready for sex right and not after years. Don't Tell Him What to Do Never tell people what to do. But if people cross your boundaries, you can always leave if they don't change their behavior. Let Him Take the Lead Siggghhhhh Don't Expect a Man to Change or Try to Change Him Everybody should live by the following rule: Don't Expect that you Can Fix a Person Don't Open Up Too Fast That's too general. You don't need to tell me everything you would only tell close relatives and friends, but if you date, people are interested in getting to know you. Are men allowed to open up in The Rules? And if so, why can they and why can't women? Be Honest but Mysterious Weird. Just weird. Fits the hard to get thought. Accentuate the Positive and Other Rules for Personal Ads Most of these rules are not specific at all!! Don't Live with a Man (or Leave Your Things in His Apartment) How do I know if he's a suitable partner then? Don't Date a Married Man YES. If he's able to cheat with you, he can chest on you too. You want reliable partners? Find an honest guy. Slowly Involve Him in Your Family and Other Rules for Women with Children Think about your children's needs, not yours. They don't wanna share a house with a stranger that's not their dad until they're ready. But if you wanna introduce him to your mom, why not? Practice, Practice, Practice! (or, Getting Good at The Rules) No. Even if You're Engaged or Married, You Still Need The Rules No way. Do The Rules, Even when Your Friends and Parents Think It's Nuts The maker of the rules already knew the rules are nuts. Be Smart and Other Rules for Dating in High School I like dumb better (what do they meannn?) Take Care of Yourself and Other Rules for Dating in College Don't tell me what to do!! (Fed up with these endless weird rules now) Next! and Other Rules for Dealing with Rejection ? Don't Discuss The Rules with Your Therapist Hahahahaahaaaaa Why not? Because therapist, like your parents and friends, know the rules are nuts. Don't Break The Rules Or else?? Do The Rules and You'll Live Happily Ever After! I already live happily. Ha. Love Only Those Who Love You You tryin to act nice now huh? Be Easy to Live With Husband isn't running yet so I'm not anxious yet. That was tough and I didn't even do the full assignment... |
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Duck Du Normandie
Subscriber Posts: 74 |
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Discussion question 1:
I think how Ichimura and Yoi respond to boundaries is a big part of how/why Ichimura takes charge of their date and their relationship pace. Ichimura says that in his previous relationships he was always just going along with the girl, doing what she wanted, going where she wanted to. So why is he taking charge with Yoi? The magical "not like the others" girl is prevalent in anime, but that doesn't seem quite right. Maybe it's her being a prince. Does Yoi having a more androgynous appearance make Ichimura feel like she's more one of the boys who can be treated differently? (I feel like Yoi's friend making comments about their relationship being BL fodder is interesting. But I'm not sure that's a point the anime is trying to make.) I think Caitlin hit on it when she pointed out that Ichimura sees boundaries as challenges, while Yoi sees them as warnings. But I'm not sure if the anime is saying that's a male/female difference, or an Ichimura/Yoi difference. Discussion question 2: I'm from the US, and while I see a lot of similarities in expectations on who does what in heterosexual relationships between Japan* and the US, I feel like there is a lot more variety in the strength of those expectations. I'm old and have lived a lot of places in the US. The expectations are pretty similar in most places I've lived, but the cultural pressure to meet those expectations are very different in a small city on the coast of Washington State vs. a tiny farming town on the edge of nowhere Montana. But the consequences of breaking those culture norms in a small insular town are closer to what I imagine are found in Japan*. But I'm guessing there's a big difference between Tokyo and Rishiri, Hokkaido. *By Japan, I mean Japan in anime and manga. I know that using anime and manga as a representative example of Japanese culture is a bad idea. Personal note, I remember the first time I watched a city walk around video in Japan I was surprised to see 80% of the women walking around were wearing pants. If you go by anime, all women in Japan wear skirts or dresses. I wonder if that has more to do with fewer legs to animate than any statement anime is saying about gender presentation. Discussion question 3: I think Caitlin is on the right track. It's related to bitter foods/drinks being more "adult". In general, children are more sensitive to bitter. One way cultures have men "prove" they are men is to do unpleasant things. Manly men drink their coffee black and eat dangerously spicy foods. I think traditionally admitting you'd rather have strawberry milk over coffee or would rather get the chocolate cherry parfait over the devil's ramen would mean you are "childish". But are "childish" and "girly" interchangeable? Sorry I'm skipping the homework. I lived through being young and single during that Rules BS. I do not want to revisit that s***. However I do have another question. It's outside the remit of the class, but: Outside the "because the magazine the manga appeared in", what makes something seinen/shonen vs shojo/josei? Within 10 minutes into my re-watch of episode 1 of Tomo-chan, I knew it was seinen. Why? After 1 episode I can't clearly articulate why I know Tomo-chan is seinen, but it is. Why is Clear Moonlight obviously shojo? Are there rules? If I start trying to list them, I start listing just as many exceptions to each. What's Frieren, shojo/josei with a lot of battle scenes or seinen/shonen with a female protagonist who tackles her emotional baggage along with demons? Is Apothecary Diaries neither because it started as a light novel? Then does its manga and anime adaptions escape being classified? An argument I've heard too many times is that something can't be shojo/josei because it's too popular. Does an anime/manga being popular mean it has to be seinen/shonen, no matter how or where it started? |
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scowler
 Posts: 106 |
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When deciding which label to use: Josei / Seinen / Shonen / Shojo, I feel it's best to guess as to who's in the audience. Tomo-chan seems like it would appeal to older boys just as much as older girls (maybe even more so), so seinen tag wins the day.
For Moonlit Dusk, I would guess the audience is mostly female. |
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Joe Mello
 Posts: 2559 Location: Online Terminal |
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While I think this is a correct takeaway, knowing that Tokyo Disney severely slashes their prices for the evening would make them a heck of an outlier if that practice isn't common. (I assume it isn't common) I think the other symbology may depend on point of view and who's story is being told. It's a romance story, the plot could be about the girl, but it could just as much be about the potential partner. Between his dating history and the fact that he's ashamed that he comes from status, it's possible that Ichimura had only been interested in the performative aspects of coupling, perhaps seeking some form of agency through this specific idea of gender. Also, Ichimura is establishing a pattern of wanting to be with Yoi in private, perhaps showing that he is no longer interested in romance as a public act. Going to an amusement park at a time where most people will have cleared out could satisfy both Ichimura's need to perform and his desire for eyes to no longer be on him. If this is actually Ichimura's story, it's possible that he was attracted to Yoi because of her performance of gender blowing his mind and that this is his pursuit of stepping into that wider world. |
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Gina Szanboti
 Posts: 12741 |
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Rather than fewer legs (?) to animate, I think it's about more leg, i.e., soft fan service. I think you're right about DQ3. Manly men want Meat!!!1! Raw, bloody meat! (but cooked will suffice) |
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Duck Du Normandie
Subscriber Posts: 74 |
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Oh totally. Any young named female character will always be wearing an unrealistically short skirt. (And in schools, their skirts are always just a little bit shorter than the background girls.) But I was thinking of moms, or the women in backgrounds in shopping or movie date scenes. They always seem to be in long skirts or dresses. Manly meat makes me think about how anime uses girl wanting to eat lots of meat = "quirky" cute girl. ...But now that think about it, not always that the girl is too manly. Sometimes moe seems to be the emphasis. |
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TJ_Kat
Posts: 880 Location: Saskatoon, Canada |
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I'm a little conflicted about Ichimura. A few times now Yoi has called out his behavior for being inappropriate and he's seemed surprised. It makes me wonder if because of his privileged upbringing and/or the pandering previous girlfriends have made towards him, he's never had anyone tell him no or that what he's doing is not okay. He then seems to genuinely reflect on what Yoi says and his own behavior. But then when I'm getting to the point where I'm starting to think maybe he's not so bad he's just incredibly sheltered/naive, but he's learning, he'll say or do something that reverts him right back to creep.
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Duck Du Normandie
Subscriber Posts: 74 |
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My larger question still stands, but after watching ep. 2, it became boobily clear Tomo-chan had a male gaze baked in. So that question is answered.
It feels a little like it's trying hard not to be the special girl who will fix the gorgeous troubled ahole trope but not quite making it. |
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Wasureta
Posts: 89 |
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They went to the Hanayashiki Amusement Park in Asakusa. It costs 1600 yen to enter and the rides cost 500 per person.
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whiskeyii
 Posts: 2462 |
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I admit that I mostly just lurk and think about these questions in my head (so do please keep writing them, I think they're a neat way to engage!) but THIS^ UP^ HERE^ I get why women do this. But I cannot STAND it when I hear guys call other women "girls" even tho I know it's like, a language version of muscle memory, like "you girls" vs "you guys". But like...a group of 30 year-olds are grown-@ss adults man. Please don't call them girls, pleeeease. (As an aside, people always assume I'm asking for people to use "ladies" instead, and I always think that's weird. Why not use "gals"? Just, the feminine version of "guys"? smh) |
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