Forum - View topicBest Rivals/Adversaries Tournament: Post-Mortem
|
Goto page Previous Next |
| Author | Message | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Tris8
 Posts: 2114 Location: Where the rain is. |
|
|||||
|
Shiki vs. Inuyasha Discussion:
Most of the points that have been made in favor of Shiki have been very good, but many of them seem to be arguing how Shiki is a better series than Inuyasha, and not a better rivalry. And I would agree with that. Shiki does something amazing by putting the vampire threat in a new light and completely eliminating the cliche and tired "living off animal blood instead of human blood" concept. In this series, there is no middle ground where Shiki don't have to kill to live, it's either kill humans or die an excruciating death. (Now for some shameless promoting, if you like serious/supernatural shows go watch this right now!  )
Shiki may be a better series (in my opinion), but it does not have a better rivalry. People are saying it is better because Naraku is too clearly evil and Shiki are not, but I disagree. I think Shiki are as clearly evil as Naraku is. They are easy to sympathize with, but then again so is Naraku. Naraku seeks power for its own sake in part, but mainly so that he can be with his love Kikyo. The Shiki are sympathetic because they are only seeking a home, a place where they can be secure with their families. Yet both the Shiki and Naraku are mass murderers, both killing as much for survival as for pleasure, yet Naraku is considered more clearly evil? The Shiki rivalry is very intense in the time it has in the series, but I don't think that makes up enough for its gross underdevelopment. Also, it's true that a couple people, Natsuno and the Doctor mainly, oppose the Shiki before the entire village finds out, but because of the situation they're in they pretty much don't do anything until the trick they pull in I think episode 18. |
||||||
|
||||||
Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
|
|||||
People have been saying that the Shiki aren't evil? I don't recall seeing that this past week. The moral ambiguity refers as much, if not more so, to the viciousness of the humans than it does to the sympathetic presentation of the Shiki. On a slight tangent, dtm, what's with the sarcasm in your vote for that match up? I feel like I should be insulted by it, even. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Tris8
Posts: 2114 Location: Where the rain is. |
|
|||||
|
||||||
|
||||||
|
Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18252 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
|
|||||
|
Round 3 Group A is now closed.
First off, to Tris8: Dorcas_Aurelia was referring to dtm42 in his previous post, not you. My, we had some much better discussion this time around! The whole Shiki thing certainly caught people's passions. After reading the arguments again (and carefully double-checking the voting on that one), though, I am inclined to agree with Tris8's last post on the matter: I also think people were comparing the relative merits of the series as much as, or more than, the relative merits of the rivalries. (And while it sounds like Shiki is an amazing series, I don't think people are giving Inuyasha enough credit for the great material it produced when not mired in filler content. The meticulous and sadistic way Naraku destroyed the relationship of Inuyasha and Kikyo, and essentially tried to destroy Sango, too, are some of the most fiendish bits of scheming you'll find in any anime series.) Still, it was probably the most fiercely-fought match so far and did come down to the final vote - and it wasn't the only match which did. Results, out of 17 votes: A-25: Light vs. L destroys the Dragons, 15-2. A-26: Team Inuyasha vs. Naraku edges Humans vs. Shiki, 9-8. A-27: San vs. Lady Eboshi manhandles (womanhandles?) Alucard vs. Anderson, 13-4. A-28: Shizuo vs. Izaya nips Team Dai-Gurren vs. Anti-Spiral, 9-8. A-26 and A-28 were both neck-and-neck the whole way; neither was ever up by more than two votes on the other. A-27 was close early, but the Miyazaki duo surged to a commanding lead by taking the final seven votes. Given the way things played out, I think it should be particularly interesting to see how the voting goes next round on the bottom side of the bracket. The next Group could, I think, also have some highly-competitive matches. Expect it in an hour or so. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
|
|||||
What sarcasm? I wasn't being sarcastic, and no-one else has come forward and expressed displeasure at what I wrote. Don't you think that you're being a bit prickly? I'm being entirely serious here, and I was absolutely telling the truth in my previous two posts. I wish you could hear my voice so you would believe me. I am not bullshitting you. [Hey, according to the Preview button that word isn't censored. Cool.] On another note, I am glad I voted. It would have been a shame to have suffered two draws. Also good to see Alucard and Anderson go down so heavily, they really didn't deserve to make it to the second round, let alone the third. Well, that's my opinion at any rate. Of course, I did vote for them in the first round, but that was a mistake and I do regret it. At the time I subconsciously thought awesome characters automatically implied an awesome rivalry, but at least I'm willing to own up to it. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Key
Moderator
Posts: 18252 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
|
|||||
|
Round 3 Group B is now closed.
Results can be found here. Last round this Group got our lightest vote total ever in one of these tournaments. Let’s see if we can improve upon that this time. Let's also see if we can keep up with the quality discussion that we saw in the last Group. Group B-25 Digidestined vs. Myotismon, Digimon Adventures vs. Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise Group B-26 Goku vs. Vegeta, Dragon Ball Z vs. Nabuca vs. Shu, Now and Then, Here and There Group B-27 Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass vs. Capulets vs. Lord Montague, Romeo x Juliet Group B-28 Love Machine vs. Kenji Koiso and the Jinnouchis, Summer Wars vs. Amuro Ray vs. Char Aznable, Mobile Suit Gundam Last edited by Key on Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Key
Moderator
Posts: 18252 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
|
|||||
|
Group B-25
Digidestined vs. Myotismon, Digimon Adventures vs. Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise The Digidestined rivalry has gotten some fairly strong support (and beating a Sailor Moon rivalry last round is no mean feat), but they're up against stiffer competition here. I've only seen the first Naruto series in its entirely and the first few episodes of Shippuden, but that's enough to convince me about how powerful the Naruto vs. Sasuke rivalry is. This is a rivalry that starts pretty much one-sided but evolves into a decidedly two-sided affair as Sasuke becomes jealous of what Naruto can accomplish, and the differing philosophies and priorities of the two give the rivalry a greater depth than most shonen rivalries achieve. Group B-26 Goku vs. Vegeta, Dragon Ball Z vs. Nabuca vs. Shu, Now and Then, Here and There This one is a much, much harder call. The DBZ conflict is one of the ultimate power-vs-power rivalries, while the NTHT one is one of the starker ideological struggles. Both are strong choices easily worthy of advancing: Goku/Vegeta is exceeded in this tournament only by the Dai-Gurren/Anti-Spiral rivalry in terms of sheer spectacle but it has a much firmer foundation and a simple but fierce execution. Nabuca/Shu has greater complexity, as it is more a struggle of beliefs, and is more earnest than fierce, but that makes it no less strong. Both have elements of the one side trying to redeem the other, both run almost the full extent of their respective series, and both evolve over time, so there's little clear way to establish an advantage between the two. Ugh. This one can go either way and I wouldn't be disappointed with the results. Though I expect Nabuca/Shu to win because it's a more highly-regarded series, I give the nod to Goku vs. Vegeta here because I feel they more embody the spirit of what a true rivalry is. Group B-27 Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass vs. Capulets vs. Lord Montague, Romeo x Juliet No question here for me. The Lelouch/Suzaku rivalry does get intense and go in some interesting directions, and does get people caught in the middle like its competition does, but it is not as all-consuming - or as utterly intrinsic to its series - as what Capulets vs. Lord Montague is. It's rather hard to deny a rivalry where one participant goes into denial over the fact that spoiler[bringing the rivalry to a positive (from his viewpoint) conclusion will essentially mean the total physical collapse of Neo Verona] just so that he can complete the job, and no rivalry in the tournament - save perhaps the Basilisk one - has such a potent tragic element at its core. Group B-28 Love Machine vs. Kenji Koiso and the Jinnouchis, Summer Wars vs. Amuro Ray vs. Char Aznable, Mobile Suit Gundam I didn't feel that Love Machine/Jinnouchis should have beaten Inuyasha/Sesshomaru last round, and this may be an even tougher opponent. Going with the mecha classic here in Amuro vs. Char. |
||||||
|
||||||
marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
|
|||||
|
Group B-25
Voting for: Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto franchise This vote hurts since I never like going against my nominees. But unlike the last round, where I could justify voting for the Dragons because they are really close to being as great as Light and L (definitely closer than the results above suggest), in this one I just can't. I have never seen an episode of Naruto and don't really plan on ever doing so (mostly on principle and out of spite but that's a WHOLE different story) but even I know that this conflict is one of the central things in the show and one of the things that actually makes it sound not half bad (now if only it was a heck of a lot shorter). Group B-26 Voting for: Nabuca vs. Shu, Now and Then, Here and There I'm going to go with this one for the same reason I voted for Durara! the last round: it just sounds like the type of rivalry I would be more interested in, were I to watch the show (I actually tried this one but the first episode did not inspire me to watch more). Group B-27 Voting for: Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi, Code Geass Romeo x Juliet is another series I tried to watch but just couldn't get behind. But I definitely acknowledge that what they did with the family feud really was excellent and interesting. However, Lelouch and Suzaku had a rivalry that kept me interested in their show (though it often boggled my mind how many people hate on Suzaku, since he's my favourite character, but again, I digress ... I blame the fact that I was at work until 1AM tonight). Code Geass had other things going for it, of course, but this rivalry always felt like its heart to me and an excellent heart at that. Group B-28 Voting for: Amuro Ray vs. Char Aznable, Mobile Suit Gundam I haven't heard anything about the Summer Wars rivalry to suggest that it deserves to take out this one. Let the mecha rivalries duke it out next round, that's my vote! |
||||||
|
||||||
4750G
 Posts: 546 |
|
|||||
|
Group B-25
While I enjoyed the Myostimon arc of Digimon Adventures, I'm going to vote for Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchicha here. For me, their rivalry is one full of pain. Sasuke was the guy who didn't need to exert any effort, he was just naturally good, while Naruto had to prove his skills every step of the way. But as the series developed and Naruto slowly got the hang of his powers, Sasuke, who up until then was one of the favorites, finds himself losing the limelight. He had two choices: cheer on for his friend or be consumed by jealousy. It's just sad that he chose the second one, and that's the reason why I'm choosing this pairing. All throughout the series Naruto tries to win him back, but Sasuke, in his search for power (with good intentions, yes, but as they say, the end does not justify the means), became this merciless killer. That's just sad. Group B-26 I haven't really seen Now and Then, Here and There so I'll go for Goku vs. Vegeta. I'll still vote for them had I watched the other one, I think. First, theirs is more of a battle of strength, which I like. Second, they're the last survivors of their race, but they're trying to rid the world of the other, which is awesome. I also see their rivalry as one with a more positive outcome, in a sense that they did not lose sight of the things they deem important just so they can kill each other off. It's just pure competition for the title of the strongest man alive. Group B-27 I love Romeo x Juliet; who cannot love something that tragic? I will, however, vote for Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi. Their rivalry is an example of how different two people's opinions can be of what is right and what is moral. Both of them had the same end goal in mind: both of them wanted to liberate Japan from Britannia. But the former is hell bent on destruction, while the latter believes that change comes from within. As best friends, they understood each other the most, yet they cannot surrender their beliefs or persuade the other to side with them. They had to clash every single time, because ideologies are just that strong, it can ruin every relationship you have. Group B-28 Either I haven't seen the anime yet or it's been a long time since I watched it so I can't really recall these rivalries. I'll give my vote to Amuro Ray vs. Char Aznable because action packed rivalries are always great. Last edited by 4750G on Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
||||||
|
||||||
NeumanProductions
 Posts: 110 Location: Appleton, WI |
|
|||||
|
Group B-25
Naruto Uzumaki vs. Sasuke Uchiha Amidst the multiple flashbacks as far as I can tell this rivalry was ever since they were the youngest of children were they made there pack to be rivals striving to always beat each other. And central to the story, as those who read the manga right now, is how this rivalry is shaping the very world by which they live in, while all mirroring a battle that happened many years before at the founding of the ninja way. Group B-26 Goku vs. Vegeta You can't ask for two opposite personalities, but as the series progresses they continue to develop deep respect for each other through fights against each other and other times fighting together. Vegeta continued to have have pride throughout the entire series which rubbed somewhat off of Goku and Goku's 'chillness' as I would put it rubbing off on Vegeta. But it all comes down to how they continued to push each other to the very end, always attempting to surpass each other in strenght. Grant it, it's not as strong as it once was during the initial meeting between the two in terms of intensity at the moment, but I believe it developed into that sort of mutual rivalry that matters most in the long run. Group B-27 Lelouch Lamperouge vs. Suzaku Kurugi I'll take a new fictional rivalry over one that actually has had its basis off the original Shakespear play. Group B-28 Amuro Ray vs. Char Aznable I've got to give Mobile Suit Gundam at least one vote. What can I say, I'm a sucker for a rivalry involving giant robots and going old school. Also comes from my Gurren Lagann bias. 
|
||||||
|
||||||
Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3907 Location: New York state. |
|
|||||
|
Match B-25: Naruto vs Sasuke (Naruto franchise)
Naruto and Sasuke's rivalry is much more personal and heated due to their past connections with one another and their different upbringings between the original series and Shippuden leading to a bigger rift between the two former teammates due to the differing beliefs and objectives the two have, factors which are lacking with the Digimon rivalry as it is a more typical case of heroes vs villain. Match B-26: Goku vs Vegeta (Dragon Ball Z) While the Shu/ Nabuca rivalry is more complex due to the ideological conflict between the two boys in regards to handling Hellywood and I would prefer Now and Then Here and There over watching the nearly 300 episode run of DBZ, the rivalry between Goku and Vegeta is still a fairly worthy one for me to keep supporting as Vegeta's inferiority complex over being surpassed by a commoner like Goku drive him to go through whatever means he can to surpass the guy in power, even after they were initially foes during the events of the Saiyan saga and Goku continues to get stronger in preparation of any threat that endangers the Earth. It is perhaps the most famous rivalry to see out of long-running shounen titles as the rivalry still drags on after Vegeta becomes an ally to Goku and pals. Match B-27: Lelouch Lamperogue vs Suzaku Kurugi (Code Geass) I have yet to see Romeo x Juliet and what I have been hearing about it has been rather mixed in reception. Ignorance be damned for not being familiar with one of the titles involved in this match, but I'll stick with what I am familiar with. Match B-28: Amuro Ray vs Char Aznuble (Mobile Suit Gundam) I'll vote for the classic Gundam rivalry for this one last round. But these two not being as confrontational with one another compared to other rivalries in this bracket and being used to symbolize the heated Federation-Zeon rivalry could bite them in the rear next round for me. Can't believe I'm supporting rivalries for three titles I absolutely detest. 
|
||||||
|
||||||
|
Dorcas_Aurelia
Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
|
|||||
You linked to 8 posts with explanations as to why people supported Humans vs Shiki. 4 of the 7 voting posts had Team Inuyasha vs Naraku as a pick to advance, and only 1 of those had anything to say on it more than the vote itself. You then went on to say the choice is obvious and that you don't want people's efforts go to waste. How is that not sarcasm? |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Ggultra2764
Subscriber Posts: 3907 Location: New York state. |
|
|||||
It looked like he was picking out arguments made in favor of the Humans/ Shiki rivalry that seemed to discuss more about the merits of the series than the rivalry itself which might have ticked him off. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Dorcas_Aurelia
Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
|
|||||
|
Except that he thanked the posters for their persuasive arguments, and just recently said he wasn't being sarcastic. Thanking someone for convincing you to do the opposite of what they were trying to convince you of is sarcasm.
What initially prompted me to comment on dtm's vote was confusion at least as much as irritation. I would much prefer to just hear his reasoning than turn this into a tangential argument, since what dtm considers obvious is not obvious to me. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Dorcas_Aurelia
Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
|
|||||
|
Sorry for the double post, but I feel it better to keep that and this separate.
Minigame results. As usually happens about this time in the minigame, some of the leaders are starting to secure their positions. As some of the more popular choices go down, some participants are taking decent sized hits to their potential score totals. Overall score was slightly above average for the third round. |
||||||
|
||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group