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Forum - View topicRurouni Kenshin - CN is ruining a classic
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DriftRoot
 Posts: 222 Location: NH |
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I've been a fan of Rurouni Kenshin for awhile and was pleased when it turned up on Cartoon Network. I was a bit surprised it ended up in Toonami (at least at first), given the series' rather bloody and violent nature as well as adult-content. My issues with the editing are probably the same as everyone's - although I am particularly irate about the inconsistencies that would seem to imply the rules aren't as stringent as CN makes them out to be.
In any event, I was furious over RK being moved to the Saturday time-slot, but had a faint hope that maybe this had been done because the story was getting waaaayyy too violent for younger viewers. We all know how that turned out. Watching the episode of Kenshin facing Aoshi, even KNOWING the original storyline, I could barely follow what was going on because the translation was so skewed and the editing so mish-mashed. If you want to view destruction of an anime classic in the making, watch the original Japanese series w/ English subs, even those these occasionally make grammatical errors they are far superior (duh) to the CN dubs, and compare these to the ones airing on Cartoon Network and consider what has been lost. Someone should tell CN that there's a point at which they've gone too far with editing and turned out a product that is so far from the original that someone should sue for false advertising. Just venting here. But I hate to think of all the people being turned off of RK and/or not understanding it/appreciating it because of CN's incredibly inconsistent and ignorant editing. |
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arxane
 Posts: 447 |
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Well, more people are buying the "Rurouni Kenshin" DVDs, so I guess, in the end, that's the bottom line.
Anime on Cartoon Network = advertising |
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ANN_Bamboo
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3906 Location: CO |
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Inconsistent and ignorant editing? Care to elaborate? Are there any specific examples you can site of butchering-in-process? I don't really have a problem with the Kenshin editing. False advertising? Nah. The original point of the story is still there. Me, I'm just as thrilled to death to see Kenshin on TV as I am thrilled when I find out that, say, Austin Powers is being shown on TV with chunks hacked out of it for content and time. I can't say that I'm a fan of the Kenshin dub *at all*, but it's watchable, and it works for its purpose-- which is to let people who normally wouldn't get the chance to see Kenshin see Kenshin-- even if it is cut up.  We can't always get what we want.
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BERSERK EVA
 Posts: 271 |
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Look if you dont like it, dont watch out. Its that simple. If your a fan you'd be buying the dvds one by one every month or something. Cartoon network is just trying to get anime to the world. And they have to edit and redo some of it to do so. Because sometimes the original text in some parts makes no sense. They are doing what they think is right and appropiate for all ages. Im quite happy with it, it just makes it so i dont have to buy the series.
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Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist
 Posts: 3817 Location: Montreal |
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I understand that editing (and commercials) is the tradeoff of getting something for free on TV, but I don't think that's any reason to roll over and accept everything that CN pushes onto you. The solution is NOT to "not watch it if you don't like it" (that's like admitting defeat). If you don't like it, complain about it! It's your right! Otherwise nothing will ever change. Of course, it would be a little more effective if you complained about it to Cartoon Network. Here it has no effect at all.
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BERSERK EVA
Posts: 271 |
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True, but im fine with it so i dont feel defeated. heh. Sure it would be nice if it wasnt edited and stuff but its enough for me. All depends how you look on the sitution. I dont have enough money to buy the series so i cant get the dvds to watch it, so its on tv ands it free. So in my case its good for me.
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cyrax777
 Posts: 1825 Location: the desert |
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once agien its not butchered heavily edited yes but the main story remaines unchanged
Card Captors = butchering cartoon Network Kenshin = heavy editing and most of it is just digi overwrites of blood and such. |
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Vigilante024
 Posts: 578 Location: back. but not really. |
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I agree, I don't think they are butchering it at all. the story line is there, main themes, and everthing still has the same name. I hate when shows get edited and they they rename random things, like cardcaptors, there really was no reason to change everyone's name, or in pokemon when they refer to rice balls as donuts... its just pointless
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Case
Posts: 1016 |
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Somebody needs to start a support group for subbies who haven't yet come to terms with the fact that dubs are now widely accepted within the anime community.
Is this thread, and the commentary in Kyle Pope's Edit Lists for that matter, any different from the clingy fanboy whining we've heard a thousand times already about various and assorted different series? I don't think so. I think Cartoon Network is doing an awesome job of bringing Kenshin's essense to American audiences. I think Media Blasters' dub is amazing, and I think Cartoon Network's editing of the series is actually very daring. (Inconsistant maybe, but how many other "cartoons" have you ever known to deal with drug use and assassination in an after-school timeslot? I say that's a huge accomplishment, even if they feel it is necessary to refer to opium by another name or exclude the most graphic camera angles in particularly violent scenes.) I think the problem here, lies not in that, but in the preconceptions people form when they get used to watching anime in only one form - subs only, dubs only, with one particular cast, whatever. And, for what it's worth, I think that's where the root of the whole dubs vs subs debate lies. I think it's based in the same cognitive distortion that Plato points to in his Allegory of the Cave - people are naturally resistant to change, and thereby don't like to indulge the possibility that there is a greater truth out there that might invalidate their existing knowledge base. In this respect subbies seem to be just as bad, if not worse, than dubbies who rely on TV for all their anime viewing. For example, right now a lot of people inherently consider Hikaru no Go to be a holy grail of anime - probably because it's not easy to get, and because the subject matter is so foreign and unique in English-speaking cultures where very few of us know what the game of Go is, and even fewer play it. And so, Hikaru no Go is a trendy series among "hardcore" fans. People go to all kinds of trouble to collect and watch episodes, or the manga. People who call themselves HnG fans are trendy, cool, on the cutting edge. Which is, of course, because the series is so sophisticated and mature. Never mind that it's a series about a boardgame. And that it was made with kids and younger teenagers in mind. Not entirely unlike YuGiOh, which a lot of those same people seem to expect that nobody is supposed to like... As a matter of fact, I suspect if you tried to make a point of that on an HnG fanboard, the masses of clingy fanboys would probably attempt to lop your balls off. (Unless you were female, assuming they could tell from a username, in which case they would probably be to shy to even talk to you.) I think Kenshin has long been in that same boat. It was only available on video for the longest time, where the more "hardcore" otaku who were already into anime were more aware of its presence than anyone else. Many people watched only the subtitled versions of those. And many, I have only recently begun to realize, seem to have watched the series fansubbed anyway in spite of the availability of the videos. But now, with television exposure, it has finally begun to emerge from the shell. Cartoon Network's audience seems pleased, but in spite of that fans who have already seen the series - most of whom seem, to me anyway, to have seen the series through fansubs or preferred to watch it subtitles-only - are proclaiming that Cartoon Network has "butchered" and "ruined" Kenshin; defeated the very point of the show by removing the blood, fleeting moments of graphic violence, language, and so on. I can hardly understand how this could be the case. For that to be true, the blood, fleeting moments of graphic violence, language, and so on would have to be the "point" of the show; the reason why people watch it. But that's not what people ever talk about when they recommend it to others, or review it, so how could it be? What people talk about is the humanistic elements of it - Kenshin's struggle to maintain a peaceful life in the shadow of his violent past. And *that* part has not been changed in any major way that I can see. What I think Cartoon Network has really done, is taking the blinders off. They are showing an animated series about a young man doing his best to lead a peaceful life in a time historically known for violence. A series that is probably best suited to junior high and high-school aged boys, both here and on the other side of the Pacific. The mysticism of the half-translation that is subtitling has been lifted, and people who previous had reason to avoid watching the dub are now watching it. And, some of them anyway, I'm sure, are probably finally seeing the series for what it really is, rather than through the rose-colored glasses of the hype that surrounded it a few years ago. And maybe, just maybe, some people are subconsciously realizing that the series isn't really their style. When I hear people complaining about the extreme violence being edited for example, I think, maybe you're looking for your kicks in the wrong places? IMHO, If your interest is in gore, you should be looking a series like Berserk - not buying into Kenshin, so you can catch the six ultra-violent-bloody-nasty-graphic scenes in the whole TV series, and then being pissed when they edit those six scenes in the television broadcast. Just think about that, and don't automatically go for the balls because, like the Hikaru no Go fans, you don't want to hear contrary opinions. Just think about it. Maybe you *do* fall into that category. Maybe you've built up expectations based on previous viewings, become attached to the more-extreme but less-important elements of the show, and are exaggerating the seriousness of the editing to rediculous proportions when you say that Cartoon Network "ruined" Kenshin. Just consider the possibility. I know that it's true for some of you here. Whether or not it's you specifically is something that you'll have to decide on your own. My 2¢. May actually apply to you, may not. But I think it's definitely something that any good academically-inclined anime fan should stay aware of. |
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Vigilante024
Posts: 578 Location: back. but not really. |
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I think you have a very good point about people being resistant to change. Change is hard esp. when you are so used to one thing. Honestly though, I have nothing against dubbed, though I prefer subbed and in some cases I prefer dubbed over subbed, it just depends on which cast did a better job at acting. I try to make my judgements on dubbed vs. subbed by watching both versions, when possible, and deciding which one I prefer...more often it is subbed but for some shows, like Saiyuki, I do prefer the dubbed. though I don't think we are as bad as the people in Plato's Allegory of the Cave, I doubt we would be so resistant to change that we would kill those who brought change... at least in anime and manga...but then there are some really hard core fans out there who don't like anything that messes with there anime 
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Case
Posts: 1016 |
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Everyone is "as bad" as the prisoners in the Allegory of the Cave. That's the point he was trying to make in constructing the allegory.
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Vigilante024
Posts: 578 Location: back. but not really. |
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I guess, but before this turns into a huge philosohpy discussion, I think Plato might have been alittle biased since spoiler[the senate made his teacher, Socrates, drink hemlock because he was bringing a change to society] but yeah, looking at some people, Plato is making a very good observation though Plato was also pointing out that change can be good, it just isnt always appreciated |
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Case
Posts: 1016 |
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Was it really necessary to use the spoiler tag for *that*?
While true, I'd have to say that is irrelevant, simply because you can see the same principle repeated over and over again right here on the internet, in forums like this one. A good example: Right around the time you posted this latest response, another ANN member instant messaged me and said "People are going to read your post and say 'Pompous blowhard. Move along.'" And he's right. As a matter of fact, I can think of at least one time when a person posted something to that effect right here in these forums. I believe the exact statement was something similar to: "Last time someone with those logical fallacies books talked to me, I grabbed it and ran it through my shredder." I was that way myself at one time, back when I was just a clingly Sailor Moon fanboy myself, until Ian Andreas Miller (DIES GAUDII) came into my world and proved numerous things I had thought I knew about the series to be either wrong, or at least not as certain as I had previously thought. And, after dismissing him as an arguementative troll for the longest time, and having facts called into question again and again and being able to find little or no proof that the popular beliefs were correct, I finally began to realize that he was not just making this stuff up. As a result, I, like the prisoner released from the cave, have come to have a limited understanding of rigidity of thought. And, while that may make me sound like a pompous blowhard sometimes (although I avoid it), I believe that is sometimes necessary when you get into complicated issues like the one at hand regarding Kenshin's TV broadcast. If people choose "move along", fine. They're only doing themselves a disservice. For the benefit of those of you who noticed my reference to the Allegory of the Cave in my earlier post: It's like this. There are prisoners chained to a wall in a cave. Been there since childhood. Can't even turn their heads. They see shadows on the wall in front of them, but don't realize that they are only seeing the shadows of things behind them. They think that the shadows on the wall are the living creatures in the world. When one of them gets freed, he sees what the real world is like for the first time and realizes his understanding of reality was distorted when he was in the cave. Very basic moral of the story: You need to think outside of the box. |
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Vigilante024
Posts: 578 Location: back. but not really. |
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haha..I think it would have been easier if you just described the Cave Allegory as the Martix
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Godaistudios
Posts: 2075 Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment) |
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I agree that people are resistent to change, and in that, you bring up some very good points. But not all changes are good, and to some extent, some fans will fight against changes because they have seen some bad work done in the past.
I have been a hardcore sub guy in the past. However, having had a roommate who has done voice acting work and seeing some objective comments on what goes on in the dubbing world allowed me to wake up a bit. Now I'm still a bigger fan of the Japanese tracks. There are exceptions, and I will definetly recognize there are some very good dubs out there. But almost all dubs lose something of what it was before. And that's true of everything you deal with. The further away you get from the source, the more is changed... that's true with every interpretation of art, music, literature and the like. I'm the type of individual who likes to preserve as much of the original vision that the author had... This is one reason why I almost always like the manga version 99% of the time. Now, I don't speak enough Japanese to enjoy it raw, so of course, I can't get as much out of it as I might if I did... but in the end, I'm honoring and respecting the work that went into the audio track in the original. It's not to say that there isn't good work going on in the US, I'm just saying that I have my preferences. Now overall, the translation and script for Kenshin was very good. I have not personally watched the Cartoon Network version, so the scope in where I'm coming from may not mean so much. From the descriptions of the changes (and I've read the edits and seen the series many times...,) it feels like to me, that things are toned down a bit more than they probably should. While the story isn't about the violent bits, the violent bits, etc. add to the characters and story in order to show what they were dealing with. So to lose some of the content that's been edited out may lose some of the perception of the characters and the impact the story is meant to have. |
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