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GATSU
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 16393
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:12 am |
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Ok, so the initial vibes I'm getting off this thing are that it's closer to Hikaru No Go in style than Death Note; but unlike HnG, it doesn't suffer from one-note characters. However, unlike DN, I kinda feel like Ohba and Obata rushed the set-up without establishing the mood, or tension, for that matter. I mean, having the chick accept the marriage proposal so easily defeats the whole challenge facing the main character. Once the pair are employed, they're hitched without Moritaka having to worry about history repeating itself. Plus, Azuki's already well-to-do, so her taking up Moritaka's request sounds implausible, given that there are probably plenty of other guys in her circle who are already asking her out. In addition, let's be honest here. "Long-distance" relationships almost never work, and they're still young, which means it's easy for both of them to get tempted. Hell, that's what happened to Moritaka's uncle's love-interest, right? But I'm hoping we'll get those kind of curve-balls as the series goes along.
Last edited by GATSU on Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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Wooga
Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 916
Location: Tucson
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:30 am |
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That's my problem with this manga-everything is so implausible, and the female characters...I know this is in Japan and everything but I winced more than once at the depiction of almost every female character in this series. Including the line "Men have dreams women can never understand."
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GATSU
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 16393
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:23 am |
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Yeah, there was an article about some of the alleged sexism going on in Bakuman I found off AICN Anime. I would probably link it, but they have indirect links to scantalations, so...
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Wooga
Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 916
Location: Tucson
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:11 am |
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It's not enough to turn me off completely with the series, I just take the depictions with a grain of salt.
The art, however, is amazing. Takeshi Obata really steps it up a notch with this series. Some of the panels are a joy to behold.
I wonder how the anime will fare...I dont think I've ever seen an anime about manga before lol.
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bahamut623
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 1463
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:05 pm |
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I really liked the first chapter. The marriage proposal thing was a little silly, but I just might buy it if I like the next preview chapters. The art seems a bit cartoonier than usual for Obata, especially compared to Death Note, which isn't a bad thing at all. And all the color pages I've seen for the series are amazing.
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Mushi-Man
Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 1537
Location: KCMO
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Posted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:19 pm |
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I really like Bakuman, I've been reading the scans since they started and I can't get enough of it. You guys have to realize the over all joke that Bakuman is going for to except the whole marriage proposal thing. Bakuman is trying to aim for "what if we made a slice of life comedy about mangaka but added in the ridicules and often nonsensical tropes and cliches that shonen series usually use. All of things are suppose to be absurd and crazy for the sake of feeling like your typical Shonen Jump series (which because increasingly noticeable as you read on). As you read on you see the increasing use of parallel references to other shonen fighting series that had run in Shonen Jump. And Bakuman is a series that you can't take too seriously or it ruins the fun of it.
Over all this is a really entertaining slice of life comedy that has allot of fun characters. Plus it actually gives quite a bit of insider info into how manga-ka work and how the Shonen Jump magazine functions. It's a good read and I urge everyone to keep with it for a while.
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Jaymie
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Posts: 915
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:20 pm |
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It's not much of a secret that Obata and Ohba are sexist, really. Every female character in Death Note were either dominated/killed/sexually harassed/kidnapped/abused by men.
And Bakuman is no different. I'm up-to-date in the manga, and so far every female character has been a joke. Especially Miyoshi.
I just tend to ignore it when it pops up, though. Bakuman and Death Note are still amazing stories, and the authors' sexist filibusters don't change that fact. Bakuman is a bit weaker than Death Note (mainly because of the lighter story), but there are still quite a few curve balls. And, in my opinion, Bakuman's strongest point is its colorful cast of characters (all of the good ones happen to be men, naturally).
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Mushi-Man
Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 1537
Location: KCMO
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:38 pm |
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About the sexism argument, I'm not sure if I'd claim that or not. While yes most female characters are portrayed in a not so feminist approved way, but I think this is for marketing purposes. We can't forget that Death Note and Bakuman are both series which were ran in Shonen Jump which means it's a boys manga. Honestly most young boys don't really care about seeing strong and independent female figures... for obvious reasons. When was the last time that Shonen Jump had a successful series which had a strong cast of female characters? I would have to say never. But then again it wouldn't surprise me if Obata and Ohba were sexist, it's not like it's unheard of in the anime/manga community.
Also I think the Bakuman is actually stronger than Death Note. Death Note was good for about half of the series and then certain events occurred that really ruined the series and made it hard to watch/read. Death Note could have been one of my favorite series ever if it had just ended about half way through.
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Wooga
Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 916
Location: Tucson
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:39 pm |
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Mushi-Man, that's not the point. I wouldn't mind if they were just weak characters, or uninteresting characters, but the author seems to make the point that all women ruin men's lives and are annyoing, unless they are completely subservient, agreeabale, and perfect porcelain dolls. I find it rather odd. The weirdest portrayal was Takagi's mom, who was an insane lunatic who wanted her son to study to replace her dad. She was portrayed with a warped expression with tears and snot streaming down her face. It just seemed really, really wierd to me. I know Japan has different views about gender, but this is taken to an almost uncomfortable level to me. I'm still enjoying Bakuman better than Deathnote, though.
And there are tons of strong female characters in Shonen titles.
Arale from Dr. Slump, Anna from Shaman King, Kagura from GinTama, Biscuit Kruger from Hunter x Hunter, several characters in Bleach, Claymore, Rosario to Vampire, etc. That hasn't stopped any of the series from gaining popularity. Even in Dragonball- where would Goku be without Bulma?
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Mushi-Man
Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 1537
Location: KCMO
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Posted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:52 pm |
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| Wooga wrote: | | Mushi-Man, that's not the point. I wouldn't mind if they were just weak characters, or uninteresting characters, but the author seems to make the point that all women ruin men's lives and are annyoing, unless they are completely subservient, agreeabale, and perfect porcelain dolls. I find it rather odd. The weirdest portrayal was Takagi's mom, who was an insane lunatic who wanted her son to study to replace her dad. She was portrayed with a warped expression with tears and snot streaming down her face. It just seemed really, really wierd to me. I know Japan has different views about gender, but this is taken to an almost uncomfortable level to me. I'm still enjoying Bakuman better than Deathnote, though. |
I wouldn't go that far as to say that Obata and Ohba are trying to say that woman ruin lives. Takagi's mom is suppose to represent the typical high pressure parent that's extremely concerned with they're child's future. This type of parent can be seen any where you go and I think the creators where trying to send the inspirational message to the reads that they don't have to just conform with what your parents expect of you, you can go out and accomplish your dreams.
And these sexist themes are very common in manga such as this. Women in shonen manga tend to either be weak, subservient, annoying, or pointless in most cases. It's only exemplified in this series because of the over use of cliches for women in manga. I'm not saying that it's impossible that they are sexist, just that this is not the conclusion that I jump to when I look at the bigger picture. I see it more as them having realized that young boys tend to like this idea of women more (at least for the time being) and the manga industry tends to support this marketing plan.
And sure there is some degree of sexism in this manga if you really want to look at it that way, but no more than most manga and anime today... or for any time for that matter. The female characters that really stand out in this manga as being "subservient, agreeable, and perfect porcelain dolls" like Azuki are nothing new. Does the word "moe" ring a bell for anyone?
| Wooga wrote: | | And there are tons of strong female characters in Shonen titles.
Arale from Dr. Slump, Anna from Shaman King, Kagura from GinTama, Biscuit Kruger from Hunter x Hunter, several characters in Bleach, Claymore, Rosario to Vampire, etc. That hasn't stopped any of the series from gaining popularity. Even in Dragonball- where would Goku be without Bulma? |
Honestly I could only agree that Claymore is a good example of a truly strong character in that list. And I can't believe you didn't bring up Maka from Soul Eater (thought I guess Soul Eater isn't from Jump). But the point remains that the majority of females in shonen manga and anime are not truly strong characters. It's the sad truth, but it makes sense from a marketing stand point.
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Moomintroll
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1600
Location: Nottingham (UK)
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:58 am |
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| Mushi-Man wrote: | | And these sexist themes are very common in manga such as this. Women in shonen manga tend to either be weak, subservient, annoying, or pointless in most cases. It's only exemplified in this series because of the over use of cliches for women in manga. I'm not saying that it's impossible that they are sexist, just that this is not the conclusion that I jump to when I look at the bigger picture. I see it more as them having realized that young boys tend to like this idea of women more (at least for the time being) and the manga industry tends to support this marketing plan. |
I'm not sure I understand your argument. You seem to be saying that they aren't sexist because the sexist themes they exhibit are also employed (though generally not so frequently) by other sexist authors in a sexist comics industry that panders to the sexist impulses of the children of an inherently sexist country.
Surely that would make them sexist, just not altogether atypically so?
Wooga's point seems to be that they go beyond the sexism we're used to from mainstream Japanese media and into the realm of outright misogyny.
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Mushi-Man
Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 1537
Location: KCMO
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 11:59 am |
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Moomintroll: What I'm saying is that calling what they are doing "sexist" is kind of jumping a few lines. Non of Bakuman really comes off as being sexist unless you want to claim that about half of the anime and manga out there is just as (if not more so) prejudice. The themes that people are claiming as proof that Obata and Ohba are misogynistic is nothing unique to them. Those same themes can be found in tons of other anime and manga. I don't think they're progressively writing this thinking "All women should be like lifeless moe dolls for mens' pleasure!" I imagine these supposed sexist themes come about in a way that's more like "This is how allot of shonen manga portray women. Lets give it a try, it will probably be successful that way."
But again, this is just my theory. For all I know you guys are right and Obata and Ohba are sexist pigs. I just don't really see it that way. Though even if that is true, it wouldn't stop me from reading Bakuman.
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Moomintroll
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 1600
Location: Nottingham (UK)
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:14 pm |
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| Mushi-Man wrote: | | For all I know you guys are right and Obata and Ohba are sexist pigs. |
I don't have a view about whether or not Obata and Ohba are sexist pigs - I abandoned Death Note after a few volumes because I thought it was fairly odious in general and I haven't tried Bakuman. I'm just trying to understand the argument.
| Quote: | | Non of Bakuman really comes off as being sexist unless you want to claim that about half of the anime and manga out there is just as (if not more so) prejudice. |
But at least half of the anime and manga out there are blatantly sexist.
Japan is enormously backward in terms of its gender politics (cultural relativism be damned...) and that obviously spills over into Japanese media, including manga.
| Quote: | | I imagine these supposed sexist themes come about in a way that's more like "This is how allot of shonen manga portray women. Lets give it a try, it will probably be successful that way." |
This is the bit I don't understand. Why somebody produces media a certain way doesn't have any bearing on whether it is or isn't sexist.
If an artist creates sexist art because everyone else is doing it, or because it's marketable, or because their editor tells them to, that doesn't make the work any less sexist, even if the artist doesn't personally hold those beliefs.
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Mushi-Man
Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 1537
Location: KCMO
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:25 pm |
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| Moomintroll wrote: | | But at least half of the anime and manga out there are blatantly sexist.
Japan is enormously backward in terms of its gender politics (cultural relativism be damned...) and that obviously spills over into Japanese media, including manga.
...
This is the bit I don't understand. Why somebody produces media a certain way doesn't have any bearing on whether it is or isn't sexist.
If an artist creates sexist art because everyone else is doing it, or because it's marketable, or because their editor tells them to, that doesn't make the work any less sexist, even if the artist doesn't personally hold those beliefs. |
Yes Japanese culture is quite sexist, and that's partially my point (though i didn't want to state it so bluntly). To the creators of Bakuman, what they are doing isn't sexist, and same goes for the larger part of their audience. They see this as the cultural norm, so I don't think it's right to blame them for sexism. We can't always hold the anime creators to the same moral standings that western society lays out.
To me being sexist means that you personally believe that woman are not as equal to men. And if the creators were this sexist they would be actively trying to make this point. I don't see them as doing this. I think they are just working within the boundaries of their social and cultural norms, we can't defame them for that.
But I think for the sake of the topic we should agree to disagree (unless you have any other points you'd like to make about this) and move on to the next point of conversation.
And I may have that next conversation in mind. I've been wanting to ask others who read this manga, how truthful is Bakuman's portrayal of the inner workings of Shonen Jump? Does anyone know enough about how shonen jump works to confirm the ideas laid out in the manga?
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bahamut623
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 1463
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Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:57 pm |
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| Mushi-Man wrote: | | I've been wanting to ask others who read this manga, how truthful is Bakuman's portrayal of the inner workings of Shonen Jump? Does anyone know enough about how shonen jump works to confirm the ideas laid out in the manga? |
I've only read the preview, but I know a bit about how Jump works, and from what I've heard Bakuman is pretty accurate. For example, they mentioned in the first chapter how the reader polls affect the order of the manga in the magazine (meaning the table of contents reflects the popularity rank of each series from week to week, and anything that's at the bottom for too long eventually gets cancelled).
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