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Forum - View topicWhy Libraries Are Not The Same as Manga Scanlation Sites
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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Deb Aoki recently had Robin Brenner write up this article for her blog explaining why Libraries are not the same [and better than] scanlation sites.
http://manga.about.com/od/readingcollectingmanga/a/Libraries-Are-Not-The-Same-As-Manga-Scanlation-Sites.htm Having seen a lot of people say stuff like "It's just like libraries!" or "Why aren't they suing libraries?", something that apparently lead Deb to commission this article after seeing those sort of comments pop up on her article about OneManga closing, I'm glad they elected to put this up. Apparently a lot of people are really unclear about the nature and legality of libraries, and how they function. This is a really good read, so I hope people give it a look through. I've seen a lot of misinformation about libraries in recent online discussions, and am glad to see stuff like this. |
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Daimyo
 Posts: 42 |
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I just finished reading that article, no where does she explain why libraries are better than scanlations sites. The whole point of that article was to explain why publication companies don't target libraries for copyright infringement. There are alot of problems with libraries not mentioned in this article: limited selection (as opposed to going to the bookstore), wear and tear and the fact that no matter how many series I borrow from the library I'm only doing just that, borrowing. Also what's stopping someone from photocopying a book in its entirely from the library, uploading it to the internet and then distributing it online (thereby removing the whole finite copies available point she made). The law? I am by no means an expert in these things but I always thought such matters always went under the fair use act.(up until the point one distributes it online of course) Are we arguing that because sites that host scanlations usually use raws from japan that don't directly support the american indsutry we should ban them? Well, what if the scanlations sites only began distributing series that are licensed and legally purchased for out of their own pockets. Would they reallly be that different from the library in theory? Yes it would be because as she said "The public library is a time-honored institution that provides free and open access to resources and information (including manga and anime), and it's a grand thing. We love what we do. But we, as an institution, have paid for the rights to lend all of the materials and resources we provide." Which basically is a bunch of crap saying that because the concept of the library is older than the internet, library users are entitled to more rights than online readers. Alot of the fees that tax payers pay towards the library are to keep the library service running than to purchase more books. Anyone can go to the bookstore and purchase a book, but not everyone can decide to make a public library of their collection complete with librarians, cleaners and etc. The bottomline: While there were many truths to what she was saying, it was very one-sided and that part about why it's good for fans sounded more like campaign garbage than factual. Especially when she goes on to say she's satisfied not being able to read the latest series of Japan. She may be satisfied with limiting herself and living inside that library box but many people including myself enjoy reading and getting the latest content from japan. Until they find a way to legalize that just like they found out to provide legal subs and streams for plenty of shows, I guess I'll just have to be a scanlation reading criminal. ~Daimyo |
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Agent355
 Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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Um, Daimyo, libraries actually pay for every copy of every book in their collections. Libraries also keep updated info on their circulations, which influence budget decisions, including which types of books to order and which copies of worn down books to replace. The more you borrow anime and manga from a library, the more anime and manga the library will purchase, and libraries are a steady source of orders for various book publishers, including the smaller, manga-oriented ones.
Many libraries welcome purchasing suggestions from patrons, and most libraries in America are connected by the Inter-Library loan program (which is good. Hopefully, in a few months I'll be able to read vols. 3-4.5 of the sadly out-of-print Planetes). There is no question that libraries are a better source of income for American manga publishers (and, arguably, mangaka) than scan sites, in which one person buys (or illegally obtains) a singular copy of a manga magazine and a translaton team makes it available to thousands of people who are not influencing any organization's purchasing power. I'll agree with you on one point in your post; most manga fans (myself included) would rather read a translated chapter as soon as its available in Japan. I really hope that a Crunchyroll-for-manga is down the pike. |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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Well, there is ther part where it's legal, doesn't infringe copyright, and supports manga companies instead of stealing from them. Because you know, us artists like to get paid and stuff. Plus, everything that Agent said, which was all in the article. Congrats on your mad reading comprehension skills. Unless you ignored all that, and don't see being legal/free/legit/beneficial to publishers as a benefit, because they benefit other human beings as well as you. God forbid people have some sympathy for other people, like manga artists, publishers, and the workers at your non-profit local library who need your support via circulation numbers more then the guys who run MangaFox for a profit. It's all about getting it NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW
The fact that it costs more to photocopy a book then buy it most of the time? it's also pretty timeconsuming. And the library will stop you if they catch you photocopying an entire book- Fair Use only covers %20 of the text or a chapter of a book. As for selection, that's what Interbranch and Interlibrary Loans are for- often available for free if it's within your region, or for a lowcost if it's from a faraway land due to special library mailing rates. |
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Daimyo
Posts: 42 |
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So what you're saying is that people who read scanlations of any kind do not influence the purchasing power of any organization. That's a pretty bold claim. You have no idea just how true or untrue that statement is, there are people who read scans to get themselves interested in a series and then decide if they like the series they will purchase it. I'll agree with you when you say that libraries, currently are a better source of income for publishers but to completely ignore the users of sites such as OM and MF and treat them all like noncontributing leeches is ignorant.
That's just your personal interpretation of the article, it has nothing to do with libraries being better than scanlations sites. The article just explains the legality of libraries and a brief overview on how they function. Now the way the article is written, may try to imply that libraries are better than scanlations sites but let me ask you this. If libraries really were better than scanlations sites, why do thousands of users decide to use sites like OM and MF? Obviously they are getting something from these sites that the library experience cannot offer.
If what you're saying is true, you could only properly regulate that for items such as textbooks and reference books. What's stopping someone from checking out a small book such as a mangavolume and scanning the books entire contents. Morality? Respect for the law? You put so much confidence in library users, yet have absolutely none for scanlations users and doubt their ability to contribute. Libraries, are not better than scanlation sites but they are more legal. |
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Manic_Monkey
Posts: 27 |
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Once manga publishers start embracing e-manga that statement will become such bull plop considering libraries are now offering free e-books for check out. |
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Daimyo
Posts: 42 |
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At that point, people would have entered an age of completely digital libraries. Presumably after awhile you wouldn't even need to leave your house to check out books. What would make a digital library selection much different from a site that offers scans? If anything that whole argument about the library purchasing its own copies and supporting the industry would be almost obsolete. The prices of e-books and the such are noticeably cheaper than hardcover and paperback books. Also it would be even harder to regulate people from just going home and copying the e-book to their hardrives. All in all it's a good idea, but until the time we enter that age where this type of thing is the norm, scanlation sites will be there. |
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Tamaria
 Posts: 1512 Location: De Achterhoek |
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Oh, you're thinking 'better for impatient fans', not 'better for the industry as a whole'. Yeah, libraries can't make the newest Naruto chapters appear on your computerscreen in an instant, but is that really such a terrible thing? Libraries have different things to offer. For instance, you can meet fellow fans and read manga that can't be found as scans. Last edited by Tamaria on Fri Aug 13, 2010 4:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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You know, I'd certainly encourage people to use libraries instead of scans if possible. I don't think that you can really claim that you personally are contributing so much more to the industry by doing so though.
Yeah, libraries buy the books which is good. Really though, if a couple hundred people borrow it, even if you consider those people to have been responsible for that book being bought, they've only contributed a few cents each toward the book. Certainly that is preferable to nothing but it's hardly a major difference. The biggest and unfortunately least direct advantage of libraries is simply that it's inconvenient and slow compared to scans. This makes it more likely that people will not want to bother with it all and simply choose to buy their own copies which is where you really start contributing significant money. |
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Moomintroll
 Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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Except that the average number of checkouts per book, while it obviously varies depending on the library service in question, is more likely to be between 10 and 20 than "a couple hundred". Manga does rather better than the average in my experience (or, at least, some popular titles do) but it would be unusual for a paperback to still be on the shelf after 30 or so checkouts. How many manga volumes do you think are robust enough to withstand being read by a couple of hundred teenagers? If a book does prove to be really popular then when the books get too tatty to shelve, there's a good chance they'll be re-purchased if they're still in print (not to mention replacements of lost, stolen, damaged, dirty or "sorry-I-dropped-it-in-the-bath" copies).
Depends on the title. For the more niche manga titles (e.g. Vertical's Tezuka releases), library sales can easily amount to 10-20% of all units sold. Without library sales, some of those releases simply wouldn't be viable (and for some other areas of publishing libraries actually represent the majority of volumes sold overall). |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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Keep in mind too that graphic novel publishers like Scholastic, Marvel and VIZ publish hardcover editions of some titles just for the library market, and that some children's publishers create titles entirely for the school library/children's library market. As Moomintroll points out,
Also, if a book has really high circulation, multiple copies will be purchased. You know what else is better than scanlations? WEBCOMICS.
That nails it on the head Tamaria--- most pro-scanlation arguments aren't really "What's best for manga?" but rather "What's best for ME-ME-ME?!?!". Which is why I really shouldn't let myself be lead into those debates. |
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Daimyo
Posts: 42 |
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If I really wanted to make a direct contribution to the industry I'd go to the bookstore and buy the manga. Instead of going to the library just to borrow a book, which is indirectly paid for by tax payers dollars. So whether or not I even read manga, the library will be using the money they get for funding to purchase manga books. This really isn't about me or you. This is about a personal choice, a choice to be able to use scanlation sites and not get labeled as a non contributor. If you want to spread this notion that libraries are the be all and end all of reading manga then I think you're spreading misinformation. Availability is a big variable to consider when reading manga. Sites like OM and MF often have hundreds of the latest content fresh and directly out of japan at the point of a mouse click. |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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Did I say they were? I'm just saying that they're a good, legal option for those who want to read manga but are on a budget. I actually buy the majority of the manga I read, with a small amount coming from libraries for harder to find/oop stuff. Just saying it's a more honest option.
And yes, those sites are convienent, but that doesn't justify what they do, or why people use them. Shoplifting's pretty convienent. |
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Daimyo
Posts: 42 |
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That "better than" part of your is very subjective, this is evidenced by the fact you put it in brackets. Because I have told you many times no where in the article does it directly say libraries are better than scanlation sites. It was your own biases and individual opinion that led you to that conclusion. As you said it yourself, the majority of the manga you own you purchase and the rest you get from the library. This would lead one to believe you have limited experience with scanlation sites. As someone who both purchases manga and uses scanlation sites and pays the off visit to the library every now and then, I have to say that all three options have their merits and demerits. Yes, currently there are many legal issues regarding scanlation sites but what you don't understand is that many people would willingly continue to be what you compared to "shoplifters" if it means they could get the newest manga straight from japan. It is for that reason you could never conclusively call libraries with their slow speeds and limited copies better than scanlation sites. |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Okay, I'm probably overstating things. I find it difficult to believe that a library purchases a book just so they can lend it out ten times though. In any case, we're still talking about a matter of maybe 50 cents per volume. Again, I'm certainly not saying it's pointless. I totally encourage people to use libraries. I just think it's important to recognize that libraries aren't some magical solution that lets you support manga without paying. It contributes a bit of money but the real payday for publishers is still actual sales. |
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