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EP. REVIEW: CROSS ANGE Rondo of Angel and Dragon


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Stark700



Joined: 30 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:36 am Reply with quote
Oh, this can be quite a controversial anime. Really curious to see where this show is going.
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:08 am Reply with quote
The three episode review makes it sound interesting enough to watch.
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Cptn_Taylor



Joined: 08 Nov 2013
Posts: 925
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:43 am Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
The three episode review makes it sound interesting enough to watch.


Such a difference from the review of the first episode. Laughing
Cross Ange is like the reviewer said "in your face" type of anime. No subtility whatsoever. You either take it in as a whole good and bad or you're just not going to enjoy it. It's girls with guns, ecchi, fan servicey, makes fun of itself, drammatic, violent, gore all rolled in one package. Definitely male otaku material. Is that so bad ?
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Kurai_Seraphim



Joined: 25 Aug 2014
Posts: 19
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:37 am Reply with quote
Quote:
the probing scene is part standard medical exam for a prison-like environment


There is nothing standard about that exam. You can come up with sketchy plot justifications for a rape scene as not being a rape scene, but it was completely written like one, drawn as one, and even had lingering body with blood pooling under the lower torso on the floor after shot of one.

Regardless of in-plot justification, any story that introduces a hateworthy character and uses rape and violent subjugation as a means of improving them isn't just being edgy, it's telling an audience that you've entered a world where rape can be good for people. All of the in-universe rationalization means that if she succeeds later, it won't be overcoming adversity so much as benefiting from tough love. You can't have a character overcome something horrible if you tell the audience that the horrible thing was somehow justified or good for her.
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Cyclone1993



Joined: 05 Jul 2011
Posts: 946
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:46 am Reply with quote
Finally a review that takes the show seriously. It's not a great show at least not yet, but it has potential. There are some uncomfortable moments but none that otherwise undermine the show.

I agree it does have a pretty good plot, and there is plenty of room for character development. But as of now its definitely C+ fare, but its not the train wreck everyone says it is.
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Kaioshin_Sama



Joined: 05 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:15 pm Reply with quote
Wow color me surprised that someone actually went back and gave this show a more proper review. I think this is the fairest and most accurate assessment of this show I've probably seen to date on the internet.
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Key
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Joined: 03 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:29 pm Reply with quote
Kurai_Seraphim wrote:
Regardless of in-plot justification, any story that introduces a hateworthy character and uses rape and violent subjugation as a means of improving them isn't just being edgy, it's telling an audience that you've entered a world where rape can be good for people. All of the in-universe rationalization means that if she succeeds later, it won't be overcoming adversity so much as benefiting from tough love. You can't have a character overcome something horrible if you tell the audience that the horrible thing was somehow justified or good for her.

If you get to episode 3 you'll find out that the commander-type character actually isn't a "hateworthy" character, and I think that significantly changes the interpretation of what she does in episode 1. And yes, as I indicated in the review, I was surprised by that, too.

I fully expect that some, like you, are going to vehemently disagree with my interpretation on this, but I'm done pussy-footing around about expressing what I feel is an honest and valid interpretation. I have kept silent about this series in forum threads because all of the hate being spewed about it has made me leery about saying anything for various reasons, but no longer. There are other ways to look at this content and there are other merits here if one steps beyond that content. Expect that to be a regular focus in future episode reviews, too, although I will also, of course, discuss anything disagreeable that continues to pop up (and it probably will, as series rarely throw stuff like that out early without following it up later).
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gedata



Joined: 04 May 2013
Posts: 592
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:00 pm Reply with quote
Also Ange is a very dumb protagonist, spoiler[she was wounded and strapped onto a bed in the middle of a room filled with Normas who were pissed at her for getting Zola killed (never mind how she was a rapist bully) along with another 2 of their comrades and she has the gall to call them not human right to there faces? The hell?]

I understand that prejudices don't go away overnight, but that was that was a move that was about as smart as poking at a sleeping bear.


Last edited by gedata on Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:06 pm; edited 2 times in total
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5404
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:01 pm Reply with quote
@Kurai_Seraphim

Yeah, you don't like it. We get it. Question is, are you going to keep watching it to see if it gets any more depraved for you, or are you going to stop watching it because you think it is unredeemable because of the material you find offensive.

Just curious, cause I would have thought that the preview guide and the subsequent flame wars would have weeded people out. But you might not have read the preview guide.
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lhernan02



Joined: 12 Jun 2005
Posts: 192
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:03 pm Reply with quote
Kurai_Seraphim wrote:
Regardless of in-plot justification, ...somehow justified or good for her.


There is very good plot justification and valid (and current) IRL comparables. Angelise has just joined the Norma cannon-fodder army and the commander does not have 45 days of boot-camp to mold her into a willing soldier, therefore the process of tearing down the individual and building the soldier is accelerated by any means necessary. As for comparables (and not for soldier-build-up purposes in this case) just read any reports from the various Russian "soldiers' mothers" committees of what hazing conscripts suffer (leading to dozens of deaths or suicides each year).

Key wrote:
If you get to episode 3 you'll find out that the commander-type ...later).


I agree with your review (it is your standard Freezing-type show - not for weak stomachs, but not horrible - maybe not worth buying, but certainly worth streaming).

I also stayed out of the threads partly due to the flame wars, but also I could not figure out the hate. Are all these people new to anime, when has anime NOT used sexual assault/rape for humor/fanservice. It is one of the things you have to learn to live with if you are an anime fan. It is far easier to remember the few shows that treat such acts in a sensitive, honest manner (I can only think of Now and Then, Here and There) than the myriad that follow the "hooray rape" mantra. Also, many of the people having conniptions about this show have in the past praised Berserk, in which all sex is rape done for fanservice (spoiler[OK Guts and Casca's firs time is consensual, but he freaks out and tries to choke her, so I would not consider it normal or healthy]).

Sorry for going off topic a bit, but I've been dying to put my 2 cents in on this series and this seems like the only safe spot.
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Kurai_Seraphim



Joined: 25 Aug 2014
Posts: 19
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:15 pm Reply with quote
Key wrote:
If you get to episode 3 you'll find out that the commander-type character actually isn't a "hateworthy" character, and I think that significantly changes the interpretation of what she does in episode 1. And yes, as I indicated in the review, I was surprised by that, too.


I was actually referring to Ange as the hateworthy character throughout that. The first episode sets her up as someone you aren't supposed to like so that when the barrage of horrible things happen to her, she can "get better" as a consequence. That's the issue I was raising with it.

To clarify, I'm not disagreeing with your interpretation of the show. I think everything you've observed is viewing the show as its creators intended the story to be interpreted. They wanted to tell the story that you're describing. I think you're 100% accurate to what they were trying to do.

I just also think that while creator intent is important, you can't ignore the discrepancy between narrative intent and narrative execution. I want to enjoy the story that they're trying to tell; it's just unfortunate and worthy of criticism that the show we actually received is pushing rape as a neutral, arguably positive, life-saving element for her that could be justified.
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lhernan02



Joined: 12 Jun 2005
Posts: 192
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:22 pm Reply with quote
gedata wrote:
I understand that prejudices don't go away overnight, but that was that was a move that was about as smart as poking at a sleeping bear.


Her world has just been shattered and she cannot come to grips with it, spoiler[also she is near-suicidal, so would not be too bothered if "sub-humans" killed her for telling them the truth of what they are to their faces. It would just prove her point of her "superior nature" being destroyed by "savages."] So while we can agree on the lack of wisdom of her actions, I think they are in-character.
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iCards



Joined: 20 May 2010
Posts: 78
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:24 pm Reply with quote
An objective and pretty fair review of the series so far, FINALLY!!
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TarsTarkas



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 5404
Location: Virginia, United States
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:29 pm Reply with quote
lhernan02 wrote:
gedata wrote:
I understand that prejudices don't go away overnight, but that was that was a move that was about as smart as poking at a sleeping bear.


Her world has just been shattered and she cannot come to grips with it, spoiler[also she is near-suicidal, so would not be too bothered if "sub-humans" killed her for telling them the truth of what they are to their faces. It would just prove her point of her "superior nature" being destroyed by "savages."] So while we can agree on the lack of wisdom of her actions, I think they are in-character.


Not much of a stretch. People do stupid stuff all the time, when if they had given it a bit of thought, might not have done so.
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gedata



Joined: 04 May 2013
Posts: 592
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:37 pm Reply with quote
TarsTarkas wrote:
lhernan02 wrote:
gedata wrote:
I understand that prejudices don't go away overnight, but that was that was a move that was about as smart as poking at a sleeping bear.


Her world has just been shattered and she cannot come to grips with it, spoiler[also she is near-suicidal, so would not be too bothered if "sub-humans" killed her for telling them the truth of what they are to their faces. It would just prove her point of her "superior nature" being destroyed by "savages."] So while we can agree on the lack of wisdom of her actions, I think they are in-character.


Not much of a stretch. People do stupid stuff all the time, when if they had given it a bit of thought, might not have done so.


I thought she would've gained at least a shred of respect for fellow Normas after Coco tried her darndest to reach out to her. At that point shouldn't the writers be trying to make Ange sympathizable? I get she's been going through hell but it's kinda hard to feel for her when she remains so darn unlikeable. And it's not just that one scene. I also find it rather difficult to believe that she could live as long as she did without noticing she's a Norma. Did she not have even a lick of curiosity regarding mana?
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