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The Stories Behind Fate/Apocrypha's Servants of Black


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lhernan02



Joined: 12 Jun 2005
Posts: 155
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:13 pm Reply with quote
OK, just a few corrections on St. Joan of Arc since they are more glaring than one would expect.

First, the Hundred Year's War takes place a century before Henry VIII declared his supremacy over the Catholic Church in England (he was never a Protestant, it was the Church's reaction to his supremacy claim that lead to the creation of the Anglican Church (primarily Cromwell's trick to balance the budget by taking over Church property)), so both sides were Catholic.

Second, the charge of transvestism was actually the first to fall since the Church explicitly allowed women to dress as men when their job and/or safety required it (and Joan passed on both fronts). Men, on the other hand, were never allowed to cross dress which is why for the longest time actors were not allowed burial on hallowed ground. She was found guilty of idolatry (actually, she wasn't, the charges were reversed on appeal (after she was dead) because her lawyer had been threated and did not provide the appropriate counsel) by twisting her words and using them to claim she took the Archangel's words as God's rather than as God's messenger (really inside baseball stuff, that they had to resort to that shows how well she thought on her feet).

The trial and its appeal are well documented, so I would recommend anyone interested in medieval canon law and its relation to civil law (the Church could not condemn anyone to death (the Catholic Church does not allow it), it found them guilty of a capital charge, then the civil authorities would take the conviction and apply the death penalty).
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minamikaze



Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Posts: 63
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:54 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
The Hundred Years' War – which her presence reframed as a religious conflict between Anglican England and Catholic France – coincided with a major turnaround in the conflict.


The article author appears to have conflated the 100 years war (1337 - 1453) which occurred before the Protestant Reformation with the 30 years war (1618 -1648), which actually was a war between Catholic and Protestant countries - well, until France decided to fight against Spain and the Hapburgs.

Martin Luther wasn't even born until 1483 - more than 50 years after Jeanne was executed in 1431), and he didn't write his 95 theses until 1517.

Henry VIII didn't break with the Catholic Church to form the Church of England until 1534 - over 100 years after Jeanne's death.
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Catsplay



Joined: 24 Sep 2015
Posts: 161
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:51 pm Reply with quote
Was enjoying the piece until the Jack section where the repeated complaining about Jack not wearing pants wore on my nerves. I absolutely love her design both because I do like loli characters and it actually makes sense based off her backstory (She's the souls of dead children, both born and unborn. A lot of those children WERE prostitutes themselves and abused). I can understand not liking Jack because she's a skimpy clothed loli assassin but you didn't need to mention that more then once. Also feel like pointing out Jack and her backstory were literally the first characters created for Apocrypha as holdovers from an attempted Fate MMO game.
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Gabbomatic



Joined: 21 Aug 2014
Posts: 70
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:01 pm Reply with quote
lhernan02 wrote:
OK, just a few corrections on St. Joan of Arc since they are more glaring than one would expect.

First, the Hundred Year's War takes place a century before Henry VIII declared his supremacy over the Catholic Church in England (he was never a Protestant, it was the Church's reaction to his supremacy claim that lead to the creation of the Anglican Church (primarily Cromwell's trick to balance the budget by taking over Church property)), so both sides were Catholic.

Second, the charge of transvestism was actually the first to fall since the Church explicitly allowed women to dress as men when their job and/or safety required it (and Joan passed on both fronts). Men, on the other hand, were never allowed to cross dress which is why for the longest time actors were not allowed burial on hallowed ground. She was found guilty of idolatry (actually, she wasn't, the charges were reversed on appeal (after she was dead) because her lawyer had been threated and did not provide the appropriate counsel) by twisting her words and using them to claim she took the Archangel's words as God's rather than as God's messenger (really inside baseball stuff, that they had to resort to that shows how well she thought on her feet).

The trial and its appeal are well documented, so I would recommend anyone interested in medieval canon law and its relation to civil law (the Church could not condemn anyone to death (the Catholic Church does not allow it), it found them guilty of a capital charge, then the civil authorities would take the conviction and apply the death penalty).


Thanks for this! I'll work on getting a correction. And sorry for the mistake - 5k words into an article and you start getting your facts mixed up. ^^;
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killjoy_the



Joined: 30 May 2015
Posts: 1554
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:19 pm Reply with quote
Chiron is just hiding his horse butt for an appropriate time. He knows the times we're in, and is not interested in having a bunch of weirdos into him.

On a more serious note, I could do without the spoilers of stuff the show hasn't aired yet, like a couple of the Noble Phantasms. I don't mind it too much though.

F/A doesn't seem to have all that much Master-Servant ties as the others. I guess Fione really wanted legs so she got someone with 4 of them, and Caules was very lonely so he got someone who was also lonely, but what the hell does Gordes have to do with Siegfried? Was Astolfo summoned to that sado master only because she really likes girly boys? Is that how it works? I want in if so.
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Emdykay



Joined: 14 Nov 2017
Posts: 9
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:45 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Vlad III's portrayal in Fate/Apocrypha is an optimistic take on the historical figure. He's made out as a dedicated king whose brutal actions were all in service of defending his nation.


Rather than an optimistic take it is the interpretation of the romanian people of him, they were and aledgedly still are quite fond of him as an brutal but dignified leader and defender against foreign invasion and fighting corruption amongst the nobles. Which he did... although you might question the how, even for his days. Considering he also gets summoned on home turf, it makes sense he is like that.

In regards to Jeanne I always hate how much it plays up the "betrayed" by her own people part. As long as I am correctly informed she was tried and executed solely by english (and burgundian, their allies) entities, not by pro-france factions, in Ruoen which was the english occupations center, meanwhile everyone who had any meager say in the matter not going with english interests was threatened by death... so not much about being burned by her own people. This always bugged me, considering how often it comes up.
Maybe there might be a misunderstanding about how organised and unified an organised religion, especially during the middle ages, actually is/was, considering Japan is not really used to the concept...

Also hopefully we now see people stop complaining about crossdressing Astolfo on grounds of historical inaccuracy, despite barely anyone knowing about the source character, considering it has a base. Meanwhile no one complains about Mary & Anne wearing Bunny swimsuits or characters from super chaste eras being dressed skimpy as hell.
Yeah, who am I kidding.


Last edited by Emdykay on Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:56 pm; edited 3 times in total
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JacobC
ANN Assistant Editor


Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 3512
Location: SoCal
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:48 pm Reply with quote
The errors in the Jeanne d'Arc segment have been corrected. I think. Post in here if there's anything I missed.
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lhernan02



Joined: 12 Jun 2005
Posts: 155
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:35 pm Reply with quote
JacobC wrote:
The errors in the Jeanne d'Arc segment have been corrected. I think. Post in here if there's anything I missed.


Thanks, St. Joan's story has become so fictionalized, both on the pro and con sides, that at least getting it 50% right is an accomplishment. In reality, she was not a commander, but a "leader" ("her presence raised the morale of the faithful and shamed the cowardly into action" - at least that is how the commanders saw it), she never took up arms (she just carried her standard - which makes her very brave in my book, when there are professionals trying to kill you), and she was betrayed by her king (he could have rescued or ransomed her, but he figured someone so pure and religious would eventually turn against him (he was neither), so he left her to her fate). In fiction she is either a warrior or an useful fool and lately a victim (it is quite annoying that in the last few pictures about her she is always raped, for which there is no proof - she was threatened (as it was common at that time to threaten important prisoners with torture/rape/death in order to break them) and that forced the court to allow her to wear men's clothing again (women's clothing at that time were quite "accessible" and made defense impossible), destroying their transvestism charge).
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Calsolum



Joined: 11 May 2010
Posts: 540
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:43 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
He thus falls into a familiar mold for Fate characters: the guy who tried too hard and died because it's humanly impossible to try that hard.

Heh, leave it to fate to create a situation where being really good at being good is the opposite of being good.
I wonder how fast superman would be crushed by karma if he was summoned as a servant and wasn't like superman but just reallystrongman. And I'm rambling now, I'll show myself out.

Ok, I lied, I'm back there's way too much good stuff here.
Quote:
Chiron is the product of the titan Cronus impregnating a lady while shapeshifted into a horse, while the other centaurs were born because some other dude porked a cloud. (It's really impossible to predict the outcome of putting your dick in something when you're a mythological being.)

I... don't even know where to start with this.
Mythology stories are weird, and the older it is the weirder it gets. Also the further ahead in time we go the freakier our regular stories get. KissXSis, sparkling vampires, omnipotent unicorns???
At what point in time was the parabola of weird stories rating was at 0 is what I want to know and how do I get to that time period.
Also, that photoshopped pic is gold if that does happen in the series its instantly becoming a wallpaper.

I have...rather conflicted feelings about Astolfo. At first I thought he was a chick but a couple of episodes in I was bothered by all the male pronouns used to refer to him so I looked it up and he was indeed a he and I haven't felt this betrayed since El/Mugaro turned out to also be a confirmed dude, damn those angels and their androgynous offspring. Damn you fate and your traps.

Quote:
This Jack in particular represents someone's idea that the murders were an act of revenge by the spirits of all the unwanted babies drowned in the river Thames by Victorian London's many prostitutes. Yeah, not all theories are winners, but at least that explains why she's a little girl. (It does not explain why she doesn't wear pants.)


err i really have nothing else to offer but this


As for the pants thing haven't you seen keijo? Its like 10x more efficient to move around in less clothing in fact if she wore nothing she'd probably break the sound barrier(but then this would be rated 18+)
Physics Gabriella, anime physics.

but yeah in all seriousness while I don't really mind this whole Jack the Ripper thing it definitely would've been easier to... digest if jack wore so.... more appropriate clothing.

Also, you seem to have a bit of a Karna obsession, just a bit but hey I'm no judge or should i say ruler Wink
...Ok I'm really going this time.
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LimeCatMaster



Joined: 25 Jul 2017
Posts: 13
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:44 pm Reply with quote
A bit late to the party, but posting to confirm Tamamo's "best girl" status.

Anyway, minor note about Chiron - he actually intentionally hides his centaur physiology because there's only so many famous centaurs. It'd basically make it extremely easy to figure out his identity for his enemies.

Of course, I'm pretty sure that bit is also only explained in supplementary materials.
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JacobC
ANN Assistant Editor


Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 3512
Location: SoCal
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:04 am Reply with quote
LimeCatMaster wrote:
A bit late to the party, but posting to confirm Tamamo's "best girl" status.

Anyway, minor note about Chiron - he actually intentionally hides his centaur physiology because there's only so many famous centaurs. It'd basically make it extremely easy to figure out his identity for his enemies.

Of course, I'm pretty sure that bit is also only explained in supplementary materials.


It's stated in the show as well but THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT OKAY. #WeDeserveHorseButt
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LimeCatMaster



Joined: 25 Jul 2017
Posts: 13
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:14 am Reply with quote
JacobC wrote:


It's stated in the show as well but THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT OKAY. #WeDeserveHorseButt

Ah shit, must have missed that. I'm so used to Fate not explaining shit I guess I just default to that.
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GoldCrusader



Joined: 25 Apr 2017
Posts: 378
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:29 am Reply with quote
Soo humm Astolfo and Iskandar are officially the 2 best Fate characters. Rider for best class.

Although, the Jack the ripper noble phantasm was never really explained in the anime was it not? Same for the part with how her master is a prostitute. It was never mentioned. It's kind of a spoiler. Also I get that you disagreed with her clothing and I agree, but saying it once was enough, repeating it again and again made reading that section kind of the worst part even if it is supposed to be pretty interesting.
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Kadmos1



Joined: 08 May 2014
Posts: 10509
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:31 am Reply with quote
In some stories, Sagittarius represents Kheiron.
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Scion Drake



Joined: 25 Nov 2017
Posts: 11
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:48 pm Reply with quote
Catsplay wrote:
Was enjoying the piece until the Jack section where the repeated complaining about Jack not wearing pants wore on my nerves. I absolutely love her design both because I do like loli characters and it actually makes sense based off her backstory (She's the souls of dead children, both born and unborn. A lot of those children WERE prostitutes themselves and abused). I can understand not liking Jack because she's a skimpy clothed loli assassin but you didn't need to mention that more then once. Also feel like pointing out Jack and her backstory were literally the first characters created for Apocrypha as holdovers from an attempted Fate MMO game.


God is it annoying when people start defending Jack. Confused

Seriously don't defend her just because she panders to your fetish. She's a shitty character with a shitty design. Also its widely regarded that the first Servants desinged for Grand Order like Mata Hari & Boudicca are awful so of course Jack herself is awful since she is a poorly designed fanservice vehicle.
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