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MarshalBanana



Joined: 31 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:43 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Multi-plane animation techniques pioneered by Disney
And if anyone is wondering how that works. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdHTlUGN1zw
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Lemonchest



Joined: 18 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:49 pm Reply with quote
When it comes to anime "mimicking" live action camera movements, nothing bugs me more than shoulder/shakycam during conversations. It never looks right since every sway & shake had to be done by hand or by an algorithm & just distracts me from the scene. I'd rather watch a film made entirely of those choppy, perspective shifting chases down corridors they loved doing in the 80s than a scene of two people talking while the frame wobbles about trying to pretend there's a camera there.

Oh & a specific recentish example of camera trickery that didn't quite work: In Rokka braves of the six flowers there's that cut where the camera startings doing a 360 pan with all the characters coming in & out of frame & it just looked weird, with them awkwardly resizing & jerking out of postion.
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Sahmbahdeh



Joined: 05 May 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:10 pm Reply with quote
This was a good question, and a very good answer. I'll have to refer to this if/when the topic comes up in conversation. And I must say, I'm glad you acknowledged the relative recency of dynamic cameras in film, which is a point I think a lot of people overlook because they take the technique for granted.
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Shiroi Hane
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Joined: 25 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:47 pm Reply with quote
There was a period when the "camera" started doing a 360 pan and the animation would shift to quite obvious CG (the first instance I can recall is a rooftop scene in Air) and I used to look out for it either being done by hand or at least composited so well that it isn't obvious. The only good example that comes to mind is a bit at the end of the last Tegami Bachi opening (ironic given how egregious the CG monsters in that show were). Oh, and a couple of cuts in the first FMA OP.
On the commentary for Titan AE, which was a 2D/3D composite, they mentioned how they only had a couple of instances where they moved the camera around the "set" due to the difficulties in syncing things up.
In terms of making the camera a character in itself, there was a great moment in Naoto Hosoda's episode of Kiddy Girl-and where a character runs past our viewpoint and they simulate her footsteps rocking the camera. One of those things like lens flare, chromatic aberration and focu racking that people spent years trying to eliminate but are now painstakingly recreated to add character (likewise the handheld-style footage in the Haibane Renmei and Lain OPs).
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thenix



Joined: 18 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:59 pm Reply with quote
This is a big reason why I've liked some 3D anime such as Arpeggio of the Blue Steel, the ability to move the camera and have smaller movements of the characters I think makes the quality of the show so much more interesting. On the other hand most fans seem to hate it.
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jdnation



Joined: 15 May 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:10 pm Reply with quote
Camera movement does have a language in film. Good creators know when to use steady, pans, zooms, cuts etc. Just because something is moving may make for a more visually complex scene, but doesn't automatically make the scene better. This is especially poignant when transitions have to happen. You can to save your cuts, or your movement for the moments that really matter or to convey specific emotions. Even the shaky-cam has its purpose when used correctly.
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Sakagami Tomoyo



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
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Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:35 pm Reply with quote
Lemonchest wrote:
When it comes to anime "mimicking" live action camera movements, nothing bugs me more than shoulder/shakycam during conversations. It never looks right since every sway & shake had to be done by hand or by an algorithm & just distracts me from the scene. I'd rather watch a film made entirely of those choppy, perspective shifting chases down corridors they loved doing in the 80s than a scene of two people talking while the frame wobbles about trying to pretend there's a camera there.

It bugs the hell out of me too, but it's less trying to mimic a camera for the sake of mimicking a camera and more to give the illusion of movement in an otherwise pretty static shot. The less jarring technique for doing that is a panning shot, but those A) are old hat, and B) involve drawing a larger picture. Occasionally, animated shakycam is used to give an impression of shock or disorientation when a character has learned a shocking truth or the like. Which incidentally doesn't need to involve much actual animation.
But most of the time (including some of those examples), it just looks horribly out of place. It doesn't help that I detest the use of shakycam in live action films at the best of times.
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configspace



Joined: 16 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:36 am Reply with quote
I agree that the frugality of using such dynamic shots lends to its impact when they are used. But I also think that the view the submitter have that anime relies on static shots is an outdated one. I've noticed most modern can be expected to use and indeed rely on dynamic, moving sequences if the scene is important. Like how Justin mentioned with Free!, pretty much all recent sports anime is like this, likewise for action anime.
Examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJYgh5Wwuk4
Sakura vs. Shin | BORUTO: NARUTO NEXT GENERATIONS (official CR clip)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2-oBjM9tWc
Kuroko's Basketball - In The Zone

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vEIDij8Q9k
Kuroko no Basket Season 3 Episode 24 Scene- Direct Drive ZONE 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs2IkDH8t6M
Kaneki vs Jason Uncensored (Tokyo Ghoul)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f4clXg9n-U
Puella Magi Madoka Magica: Rebellion - Homura vs Mami 60fps FI - sub ESP & ENG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGz42vpeGKk
Fate/stay night UBW (2014) - Archer vs Lancer school fight 60fps FI - sub ESP & ENG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4PFOBNn2rE
Fate/stay night UBW (2015) - Archer vs Lancer church fight [Rho Aias] 60fps FI - sub ESP & ENG

In fact, ANN recently had an interview with ufotable about this:
animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2018-01-10/interview-yuichi-terao-chief-of-ufotable-digital-team/.125658

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39zaKh61cls
Araragi Koyomi Badass Scene - Kizumonogatari

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBUOGiEgUeA
Kiss Shot vs Araragi ● The Fight Of Two Immortals (Human vs Vampire)

and then the tiny sample of the numerous examples in Attack on Titan:
https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/38383
and in Kabaneri of the Iron Fortress, etc

and if you want continuous camera movement and perspective change:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8I95WL9H08
K: Return of Kings - Opening Fight Scene

If anything I'd say there is a strong expectation for such dynamic movement in important scenes in modern anime now.
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Polycell



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:32 pm Reply with quote
I don't have the time to review all of them, but they look like they're all fight scenes from the ones I have. Fight scenes by and large play by their own set of rules if you're not Filmation or Hanna-Barbera and normally have far more time and budget allocated just to them. Something more relevant to the question would be Dia's run from Houseki no Kuni, which is a great deal more animated than most similar scenes in anime.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:14 am Reply with quote
jdnation wrote:
Camera movement does have a language in film. Good creators know when to use steady, pans, zooms, cuts etc. Just because something is moving may make for a more visually complex scene, but doesn't automatically make the scene better. This is especially poignant when transitions have to happen. You can to save your cuts, or your movement for the moments that really matter or to convey specific emotions. Even the shaky-cam has its purpose when used correctly.


I was just thinking about how when 3-D CG animation was new, and every single shot had to have the camera moving in some way, as if to show, "Look at what we can do that traditional animation can't or is too expensive!" And I'd see that happen with amateur short films by 3-D animators too. Part of why Toy Story didn't feel jarring despite it being the first full-length theatrical film to be animated in 3-D is because the team, having had backgrounds in film production, knew when to keep the camera still, when to keep it slow, and when to make it move fast.

The always-moving trap is equally prevalent in Japan. I haven't seen Land of the Lustrous yet, bit I'll assume they, too, know to keep the camera's energy levels at a reasonable degree.

Sakagami Tomoyo wrote:
But most of the time (including some of those examples), it just looks horribly out of place. It doesn't help that I detest the use of shakycam in live action films at the best of times.


Shakycam is actually used very frequently in live-action, but in most cases (such as their use in the Marvel movies or the Indiana Jones movies), it's done subtly and with small movements, designed such that you're not supposed to notice it. What you're referring to, more likely, is intentionally exaggerated shakycam, designed to draw attention to itself, commonly used to make footage have an amateur look to it (which was popular in commercials until recently, and actual filmmaking amateurs are almost never that bad).

Unless, of course, you can notice even when it's small and subtle and it bugs you, in which case I'd imagine most live action film made after the 1960s would be offputting for you.
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Sakagami Tomoyo



Joined: 06 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:38 am Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
Shakycam is actually used very frequently in live-action, but in most cases (such as their use in the Marvel movies or the Indiana Jones movies), it's done subtly and with small movements, designed such that you're not supposed to notice it.

When it's used subtly enough that I don't notice it - that I don't have a problem with.
leafy sea dragon wrote:
What you're referring to, more likely, is intentionally exaggerated shakycam, designed to draw attention to itself, commonly used to make footage have an amateur look to it (which was popular in commercials until recently, and actual filmmaking amateurs are almost never that bad).

That I'm not very fond of either, but primarily I'm thinking of instances in action films where something's clearly happening but I can't tell what the hell it is because the camera's shaking around.
leafy sea dragon wrote:
Unless, of course, you can notice even when it's small and subtle and it bugs you, in which case I'd imagine most live action film made after the 1960s would be offputting for you.

I wouldn't say live action films made after then are offputting, but there are a lot of subtleties about how they do things that I think were better before then. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot about more modern technique and technology that is for the better, but some techniques I feel do make for a lesser film.
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leafy sea dragon



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:14 am Reply with quote
Sakagami Tomoyo wrote:
That I'm not very fond of either, but primarily I'm thinking of instances in action films where something's clearly happening but I can't tell what the hell it is because the camera's shaking around.


Yeah, if you notice it, and you weren't actively looking for it prior, then it wasn't done properly. When a movie is well-produced, you're supposed to forget you're looking at a screen. (And the same goes with TV shows, though to a lesser extent due to commercial interruptions.)

Sakagami Tomoyo wrote:
I wouldn't say live action films made after then are offputting, but there are a lot of subtleties about how they do things that I think were better before then. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot about more modern technique and technology that is for the better, but some techniques I feel do make for a lesser film.


That's perfectly fine. I was referring to more advanced technology, by the way, that allows for camera small enough to have shakycam at all, as you obviously couldn't do this with the humongous, bulky cameras that needed to stay in one place or move on tracks.
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Usagi-kun



Joined: 03 Jul 2013
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Location: Nashville, TN
PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:15 pm Reply with quote
I'm not sure if this example is completely relevant. My father worked in television and I know some of the basic terminology, but this is honestly one of my favorite OPs of all time.

https://youtu.be/oAXrRWLKzko


Last edited by Usagi-kun on Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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Nom De Plume De Fanboy
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:12 pm Reply with quote
I also liked Ergo Proxy's op, and prefer the op to its ed.
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