Forum - View topicANNCast - This One's About Reviews!
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Charred Knight
 Posts: 3085 |
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I would consider the worst thing to do for reviews is not to watch the thing your reviewing.
I have seen this a couple of times where I really question if the reviewer actually saw what they where reviewing. The one from ANN I can remember right off the bat was when Casey didn't even know that Overman King Gainer was a comedy, but I think that might have been more that Casey went in expecting Zeta Gundam not knowing that Tomino had defeated his depression and hated King Gainer because she didn't understand that it was a comedy since she didn't know Tomino had a sense of humor because Zeta Gundam has very lttile humor. As for people who watch anime for the entire series and will wait for 20 episodes for it I think it has to do with the fact that people who watch anime online generally have a ton of time and will wait for a ton of crap for it to get to the good point. I mean when I was watching a ton of fansubs, I was a lot more open minded. I mean Mai Hime had a ton of bad episodes in the beggening but a ton of people sat through until the plot actually happened. I gave up on Eureka 7 due to how piss poor the first episode was. Last edited by Charred Knight on Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ryusaki
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I must say this and this first.
For a while now, I've always had my urks with ANN, a lot having to do with encyclopedia, and having misinformation, but with reviews, I gotta say I'm sorry. If it is something I'm interested in, I, which I bet a large majority of people, just straight to the grade, though if it's something I've seen are am a fan of, I'll read throughly. Which goes into the fact that yeah, fandom is usually harsh on reviewers, and that's where people gotta chill. Reviewers, REVIEW and state what's good and bad about a series, show, movie, etc. It's a OPINION, and reviewers in general, it's their job. A review that's really good, is person giving their overt opinion of the series. So, I've probably got a even deeper respect for reviewers. Loving the the show so keep it up guys, especially Zac. |
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GATSU
Posts: 15298 |
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Zac: You gonna see that LA TNT Witchblade next?
"Dragonbox is a good deal" Not if you're one of those poor suckers who got screwed with the "remastered" version of DB a while back. 
"I do enjoy the show" Then you might dig Weekly Tube Show. 
"anything that glorifies the military" What about MGS? Bamboo: "a lot of game commercials on tv" You seen the WoW ads w/ Mr. T, Ozzy and Van Damme and Shatner? [My favorite is the German dubbed version of Mr. T.] |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Heh heh. Zac takes his nerdiness seriously. I don't know though. Some games are nerdy but a whole lot of them really are more comparable to watching sports in terms of their audience.
Personally, I think it's possible to state your honest opinion and still provide some more impartial analysis. I would somewhat agree with what Zac is saying although I find ANN is one of only a few anime review sites that are decent there isn't really a huge amount of material from my perspective. It's certainly good to state your honest opinion about stuff. I wouldn't want to read a review that doesn't offer the reviewers own opinion. However, I do think it's worth addressing it as well in the context of how a fan would find it if what you're trying to accomplish is to inform people whether or not they'd like it. I do think an effective writer can effectively do both though. First off, go ahead and criticize or praise it's more universal elements like plot, character, visuals, sound. Then go ahead and criticize it because it's main appeal is moe or mecha or whatever if that's what you think. In the end though, it doesn't hurt to still put it in a fan context. ie. Air wont appeal to everyone but it's definitely one to watch for moe fans. Or alternatively, Shuffle is probably for hardcore moe fans only because that's really it's only appeal. You don't have to explicitly say this either. Just offer plenty of other views outside of genre related issues and be clear when you are criticizing genre issues so that people can see it and say 'okay, they evidently don't care for this type of show. I do like this genre though so I'll just focus on the other parts of the review'. I think if you've done that to a reasonable extent and people still complain (and I'm sure they still will) then they're just being stupid. On actual analysis, I'm very proud to say that I really do like to try and analyze stuff. I don't know that I'm exceptionally good at it but I do my best to try and consider and record the reasons. On the company pressure: This is why I really DO NOT trust game reviews. I'm surprised and disappointed to hear ADV pulled that crap. Well...maybe just disappointed. |
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pachy_boy
Posts: 1323 |
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I remember the reviews of Newtype, and how they were more often than not positive, and were lesser opinion pieces than reviews I read on ANN. But I loved Newtype's reviews, because I loved a positive atmosphere compared to the harsh things I once read in Entertainment Weekly. And I could read between the lines of Newtype's reviews in figuring out whether any of the titles are what I'd personally check out; for instance, if they don't have too many praiseworthy things to say about a particular title, or point out what makes it stand out, that's a big clue in knowing it's not worth my time.
Of course, we don't get that on ANN, but still many of the reviewers offer very interesting viewpoints in both their good or bad reviews, and I either take them or leave them because they're just opinions and they don't always say how much I would enjoy them personally. For instance, I thought Casey totally overbashed Origin, and I recognized it as the entertaining popcorn movie it was meant to be. Also, in some cases, I don't really like the idea of critics in general who write bad reviews just because they're fun, because it sometimes sounds to me like they're just looking for stuff to abuse. Anyway, upon Zac's mentioning he's no longer a Slayers fan, it made me think of one show I loved when I was a teenager, which was all the Tenchi Muyo series. I'm in my mid-twenties, and I just recently rewatched the Universe series. It is no doubt old-school by today's standards, but I was able to reconnect with my teenage self and still found a lot to enjoy in it, both its humor and bizarreness. I wonder if I'm the only one of my kind |
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Anime World Order
 Posts: 389 Location: Florida |
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Bamboo touched on a great point regarding the phenomenon of people getting on your case because you like something, but don't like it enough. In my experience, the greatest amount of angry correspondence I get BY FAR is as a result of this scenario.
One of the laws of logic is known as the Law of Excluded Middle: that something is either true or not true. P or Not P. This law is meant to apply to logic conditions. But on the Internet, this has somehow taken on a life of its own, and is perceived to apply to not just things dominated by binary logic conditions ("true" or "false," "1" or "0"), but also opinion. On the Internet, you must either love something or hate it. A or F. Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down. The middle ground isn't there. I can ALMOST understand this thought pattern. After all, the empirical rule (or 3-sigma rule if you're an engineer) applies quite well to the quality of entertainment. Stuff kind of all falls into a normal bell curve distribution such that most things are "average." People typically only take the time to write about things that they consider "above" or "below" the average, or more typically the 5% of stuff that comprises both "really, really good" and "really, really terrible" put together (if you're a math student, that 5% comes from what is "two standard deviations away from the mean"!). The reason people do this is simple: as most of the podcast noted, the hardest thing to write about is the middle ground material they have no particularly strong opinion of. But in a subjective realm such as entertainment, these things are meant to be just a loose guideline, not an absolute untenable fact. On the Internet, people seem to have forgotten this over time such that for a great deal of people the idea of saying "this is just okay" or "I don't care" in response to something literally DOES. NOT. COMPUTE. Especially when it's something they themselves feel strongly about one way or the other. They can understand if you love it as much as they do, or hate it with a passion. So when you either don't particularly care about something one way or another or like but not intensely like a given title people go crazy for? They just freak the Hell out at you. They don't know how to deal with it! To them, your reaction makes no sense at all! The writings of irrational, raving lunatics who don't realize that they're irrational, raving lunatics tend to look something like this: "How DARE you say that [so-and-so] is just/above average? It's MORE than just that! Clearly you're too STUPID and SUPERFICIAL to understand what's REALLY GOING ON in your entertainment. You really should just watch/read it again, because there's A LOT going on here that you just didn't pick up on!" They can't reconcile the notion that someone could conceivably view the same entertainment as they did, picking up on all of the same things, yet NOT walk away with a "love" or "hate" response. [Because they are insane.] People throw around a lot of "laws" on the Internet when bringing up opinion. But move over, Sturgeon's Law. The problem with you is that nobody agrees on what exactly that 90+% of everything is that's crap. The real law that rules this land is that of the Excluded Middle. |
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pparker
 Posts: 1185 Location: Florida |
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The value of reviewers who are experts on a genre is for genres that I don't like. Just as with live action film, my interest isn't limited by genre. I want to see all of the "best" anime from a story viewpoint. But except for my personal favorite entertainment genres, I only want to see the best. An expert in a genre should be more authoritative at putting the show into a historical and comparative context and separating the excellent from the average. When they say it's an "A" title, that's a far more valid score than one from a general reviewer.
Bamboo's statement about forums being a part of the review experience for anime makes sense in Zac's context of anime, where the fans have already seen the shows. I'm somewhat interested in what the reviewer has to say, but I've never chosen entertainment based on reviews alone. Before the internet, I relied on personal word of mouth almost exclusively (now of course, you can either spend your time reading several reviews or you can just watch the show to see if you like it. Doh!) I have friends I trust to know my tastes in entertainment far better than any stranger, no matter how experienced at analysis they may be. The forums fill in that purpose where anime is a niche medium, and none of my friends even approach my level of interest (as in, eyes glaze over when I bring it up). Plus, it's interactive, which always beats passive inflow of data. ANN staff do respond--or in Zac's case, react  --in the forums, but Erin is for instance is expanding on Bamboo's habit of responding in Shelf Life, closer to what bloggers do, and that's a good thing.
Aside from somewhat objective analysis of "quality" of a work of entertainment based on technical factors, subjectivity for me can be heavily influenced by a nostalgia factor. I'm re-watching a shelf full of my favorite series now, approaching my 3rd year as a fan (having had far too much time on my hands and watched some 200 shows, mostly series, so far). If someone had reviewed one of my first anime, Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi, a month ago and trashed it, I would have objected. Today... well, it has a handful of classic episodes that I may re-watch someday. Otherwise, the glow is gone. I'm imagining that some people still hold fond memories of shows that aren't that great, but were great in the context of the 10 anime they had seen by then or in the thrill of first discovering the medium. (Yes, Love Hina, too ) Also keeping in mind that the vast majority of viewers are watching for entertainment, not to analyze or critique the shows.
I don't expect reviewers to try to be objective, but I appreciate when they are experts in film or anime from a technical and historical aspect. Justin's Buried Treasure/Garbage is great because of his extensive and hands-on experience in anime over many years, being an actual participant in the industry. Subjectively, my enjoyment of a title may differ from his, but I feel I am a better viewer because of his data, because I'm somewhat assuming that viewpoint of a deeply informed viewer, if that makes sense. A unique aspect of Buried Treasure, though, is that being a new fan, I've likely never seen the show before the review. That sort of leads into responsibility of the critic and what Zac said about providing a basis for an opinion. Especially if you're going to trash something in my favorite genre, then you'd better at least tell me why you don't like it, and not just that it's "another one of those shows that I hate".
Restated as: 90% of everything is crap, 1% is great, and everyone's remaining 9% is different. Another excellent show. Thursdays have improved .
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Splitter
 Posts: 1276 Location: Knockin' on Heaven's Door |
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Wow, Zac goes after Nanoha and Key fans in the same podcast! How lucky are we! Kodomo no Jikan next week, please?
In all seriousness, this is why I love ANNcast. Zac is second on my most likeable douche list right under the amazing Joel McHale. |
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TatsuGero23
 Posts: 1277 Location: Sniper Island, USA (It's in your heart!) |
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I think the whole thing about fans who will put up with bad series or just willing to sit through below average story to the "good part" of the series, AKA the "Oh it gets better after X." fan, honestly that seems like a natural thing to me. I'm a bit surprised people get put off by that opinion or remark especially since series tend to vary in quality in general and in the end those individuals may prefer to see the story as a whole before judging a series given the nature of anime in general seeing has how themes or genres get repeated. Similar to how we sometimes think about a book or book series. Some books that are fun or great to read but have their weak points or if the series had an less enjoyable book. But its common for people to often save judgment until we finished the book or series. It's not weird to read or hear "Oh yeah this series was great but book 4 wasn't as good but I love the series" or "This point in the story is awkward or out of place but how it all came around made for a great such and such" and etc. Generally at least...
The enduring or tolerant nature of fans might come from manga too. Most manga series (especially from new Mangakas) start from "meh" level but we get to watch the creator or artist or team grow with the series as their art becomes cleaner or more dynamic or a real personal style emerges; so maybe that sentiment carries over into some peoples viewing habits. Anime side, the Dragonball Z anime is another example of fans putting up with crap animation to get the really good episodes. Some episodes the fights are poorly done or its like the C team was in charge of drawing this episode. But then you get to some great fights and the good character designs or the team that's not afraid to deviant from the source material and still give us a great episode. Yugioh is probably a more modern example. Some of those episodes were really well animated (or well done) to the point casual anime fans would watch it because it looked really good. I will always remember walking through varies common areas at school and the most unexpected type of person would be there watching Yugioh. But then you get some really crap episodes which just make you go "aww... this is why some people hate shonen" and those same people would change the channel to ESPN or the college movie channel. Or Food Network. God that was fun to watch back then. So yeah, I guess what I'm getting at is the "Oh it gets better" opinion isn't enough to put me off of a series just because of personal experience and I guess more then anything it tells me that this is just one of those series I have to judge for myself. Which is generally the stance I take with everything. |
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ninjaclown
Posts: 199 |
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Trust me, Zac. You may think Witchblade is fanservicey now, but it's really heartwarming and heartwrenching, especially towards the end of the series.
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v1cious
 Posts: 6202 Location: Houston, TX |
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Witchblade was actually better than i expected it to be. i think more people would've checked out the series if had been labeled differently. i really liked the second half of the series.
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Otaking09
 Posts: 637 |
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So much stuff discussed... Man, I wish I could talk to these types of people! They know what they are talking about!
I must be one of the very few people that agreed with Erin's thoughts on Clannad. Not only is it the weakest (emotionally) out of all three, but it's predictable. It's the Love Hina of today. And I was always a fan of Bamboo's SL articles. She may have said: "I like it, I hate it." But she did often give valid points to help people understand her pain/joy. I'm glad she loved Air! Don't be feel too bad about nitpickers... I don't feel too hardcore about anything to the point where I'd correct anyone's writing because of a typo! That's funny! While I do agree that "honesty is the best policy", I feel that explaining that honesty is almost impossible to get across to those that don't care/listen/open their mind. Zac is a little brash on the "bad parts" of anime series, but he does know what he's talking about. I don't want to sound like a fanboy, but he must have a personal grudge on Gonzo or something to judge Witchblade so soonly, based upon a spoonful of it. Ahh well, it all boils down to this: ANN do what they do to inform. Anyone who feels that upset over their judgement should simply keep it to themselves/go to a blog/converse with the likeminded/move on. Good topic, good hosts, and good show = ANNCast |
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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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A good show as always. I especially liked the perspective on the review process itself.
Funny to hear about the people getting their quotes taken in the wrong context (like Bamboo's sarcasm with that hentai title), and I thought the "cave" effect as well as the robot and 70s sounding alien were pretty entertaining. Oh, and sometimes people just want to make corrections in reviews. Don't take that as if someone is saying you don't love the show in question enough. Like the "girl who didn't know she was a ghost" thing. If that was in a review then I would correct it. Not because I'm some butt-hurt fan or something, but because it's simply not part of the actual plot of the series. |
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Splitter
Posts: 1276 Location: Knockin' on Heaven's Door |
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That's because Zac isn't a hardcore fan, he's part of the casual masses. Yes, he's very well informed and been into anime for a long time, but he still expects an anime to deliver out of the gate or suffer his wrath. As was mentioned in the podcast, anime can get better later on, but if you're not satisfying casual fans immediately, what incentive do they have to continue? |
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AkiraKaneda
Posts: 61 |
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Having to suffer through 20 episodes of an awful series to get to a good part isn't being a hardcore fan. It's sadomasochism. |
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