Forum - View topicGhost In The Shell: Innocence
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v1cious
 Posts: 6283 Location: Houston, TX |
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biggest letdown of the year
now i see why it's been getting such a bad rap: cause it's downright boring as hell. visually it's a masterpiece and the soundtrack is amazing, but beyond that there's really not much else to write home about. save your money for Appleseed. |
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Ken Hayashi
 Posts: 752 Location: Singapore |
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Know what you mean. People who have seen the original have been crapping on it pretty much all the time. It just tried too hard to be "deep".
I'm just going to buy the DVDs anyway. I don't think they'll cost that much. Like to have it in my collection. |
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jfrog
 Posts: 925 Location: Seattle |
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It is now time for me to say: "I told you so!"
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JETBLACK87
 Posts: 1073 |
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Just as long as you not buying this , you should be fine. I liked it. Isn't Red Spectacles kinda the same thing? It's not much of a story told in a very weird way. Just change 'weird' with 'confusing' and your all set. |
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Ken Hayashi
Posts: 752 Location: Singapore |
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Erm, I'm not so much into the collectibles anyway so I'm just looking for the plain-vanilla DVDs. 
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GATSU
Posts: 16424 |
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I'll just post my review from the I.G. forums: To summarize, I thought Innocence was better than I expected, and even better than Patlabor 2, Jin Roh, Blood and Mini Pato, but still not as good as the original. (I think because those four anime titles had no heart, and were just trying to either cash in on the popularity of the original films and/or off Oshii's story-telling techniques.) Unlike Reloaded, Innocence's action scenes seemed out of place, and just an excuse to sell the film to Japanese-and possibly Western-audiences. The worst part is it was pretty obvious Oshii was trying to top the Wachowskis when he did those scenes. For example, spoiler[the yakuza shoot-out was created in response to the Merovingian shoot-out, and Bateau fighting the dolls was trying to one-up Neo and the Smiths.] Oh, and what the hell was with the techno remix of Kawai's original GITS score? That alone is blasphemy. Plus it didn't help that Oshii ripped his own work off by using the concept of Beautiful Dreamer for a sequence in Innocence. Finally, the Blade Runner comparison still stands. (Plus a bit of Terminator and I, Robot.)
Still, Innocence is not a total loss, because Oshii does bring up interesting religious and metaphysical concepts which strengthen a movie that would've fallen apart if some hack like Anno directed it. A lot of people seem to detest the Shinto-esque comparisons of inanimate objects to those which bear life, but when you do simple things like play videogames or watch anime, you're not just a passive observer, but one who interacts with the images present. Thus you've indirectly anthromorphized those images and objects. And yes, I actually do appreciate the literary quotes, because it makes sense that in a world that defines complexity through condensation of knowledge, the residents of that world would seek knowledge which can't be condensed into a molecular structure. That's how they separate themselves from the machines. So in a way, GITS 2 is like Godfather 2 in that both films should've just tacked on the better scenes to the original films,and discarded the filler. (In Godfather 2's case, the Don Corleone flashbacks should've just been incorporated into Godfather 1, and in Innocence, the philosophical discussions should've been incorporated into GITS 1.) Thus I only consider GITS 2 a good half movie. But I still think of it as a better answer to the original than Tokyo Godfathers was to Millennium Actress. Unlike Kon, Oshii didn't intentionally dumb down his style, just to pander to mainstream audiences. He just took it in a different direction, perhaps because he was tired of thinking existentially, and he was more interested in pushing the limits of 2-d animation, before cg possibly takes over; and for that, I applaud Oshii. He took a lot of risks-financial and critical-for Innocence, but at least he'll be remembered for sticking to his vision in an industry that's becoming increasingly cookie-cutter. |
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Septeus7
Posts: 88 |
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Why does everyone on this forum hate this picture? I just saw it and I really liked it. The dialogue had alot of funny references and the philosophy wasn't half bad. I don't know why you keep trying to compare it to the orginal. The GITS universe has moved beyond the ideas of the original and built upon them rather well. I find ironic that the most of popular critics response to the film was that is was too philosophical but at this forum the criticism is that it lacks dept. I think it has a good balance of both consider it is a film not a philosophy textbook but and still a an thoughtful sci-fi film but not a cheap action flick.
Lastly, the artwork and visuals were incredible...how can a film with thoughtful philosophical dialogue (a refreshing rarity these days), a solid enough storyline, and abolutely stunning visuals be terrible? It can't. unless you were expecting something beforehand that prevented your willing suspension of disbelief that is necessary enjoy ANY film. These "reviews" are really more reflection of the poster's prejudice and disappointed bias than any meaningful critique of the film's actual content. |
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Kazuki-san
 Posts: 2251 Location: Houston, TX |
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That's all well and good.. except.. the premiere of Matrix Reloaded was May 7, 2003.. US premiere May 15,2003.. in Japan on June 7, 2003. The production of Innocence was announced 12-13-2002. The first production poster was in ANN news on 3-25-03, with the first partial trailer in ANN news on 8-7. I find it hard to believe that after seeing Reloaded, Oshii would decide to rework the story just to try and one-up it. And what's wrong with having a techno remix? I'm assuming that you're implying that this is further proof that Oshii was trying to outdo Reloaded. Kawai can redo his score if he wants to. Maybe after 9 years he wanted to rework it a bit. Not to mention that the mus from SAC has a distinct techno feel. |
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GATSU
Posts: 16424 |
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Kazuki-san:
From http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/548/548854p1.html?fromint=1 : "It took only three years as far as the actual production was concerned," says Oshii, who recently spoke with IGN FilmForce via an interpreter.
If it wasn't Reloaded, he still was trying to compete with Hollywood as a whole.
SAC is a different animal than Innocence though. |
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Kazuki-san
Posts: 2251 Location: Houston, TX |
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I'm not saying production was done by the time Reloaded was released, just that it makes no sense that he would change things after Reloaded came out. If the article on Ain't It Cool News is to be believed (from the link you posted to the parade sequence) it took 1 year for Production IG to produce the parade, so it's unlikely that they would simply throw away work done just to outdo another movie. Personally I don't see what's wrong with the two scenes you mentioned. I mean spoiler[Batou loves to fight, so it fits to me that he would go in there with guns blazing, especially with the way he was acting. As for the doll fight, it seems logical that they would start attacking everyone since that is what they were programmed to do through the Ghost dub. The only question I have is how they were activated in the first place, since I don't recall a command being given to do so, unless it was some sort of auto-defense system (since they were loaded with Battle routines), which would also make sense]
I'm not trying to compare them as far as content, but rather to show that a techno style of music can fit in a cyberpunk show. |
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MasterFuu
 Posts: 434 Location: Phoenix, AZ |
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Just came back from theater and have to say GITS Innocence is less then average anime. The story is too complicated and some parts of the movie unnecessary. There is little connection between some scenes. First 30 minutes were great and last 15 minutes were awsome. But everything inbetween makes little sense to me and was complete waste of my time.
Wait for the DVD and rent it before buying. This movie can't compare to the original GITS in anything but the animation graphics(mostly CG). If you have nothing to do go and see it for yourself and then be the judge. And give the anime industry little financial support. |
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Kazuki-san
Posts: 2251 Location: Houston, TX |
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I disagree. But it all comes down to a matter of taste. Do you mind actively participating in the movie, by having to actually think.. I mean deep thoughts, or would you rather passively sit there and let the action happen? Personally, I enjoy tossing issues back and forth with myself sometimes, so I enjoyed the movie. The whole premise behind GitS is: What is it to be Human? Pretty much all of the movie served to drive that idea forward.. spoiler[including when Batou and Togusa get hacked and repeat the mansion scene over and over.] Quite a bit of it is subtle spoiler[ you may ask, what's the point of the dolls? If you listen to what the Major says close to the end something to the effect of "If they could talk, I wonder if they would say 'I didn't want to become human'." This once again returns to the idea of what it means to be human. The dolls were given Ghosts (i.e. souls) and were created to pleasure humans, and so most likely had to endure things a human would never approve of. It's no wonder they would want to kill themselves. ] If you expect Innocence to be an action movie, then don't go, because you will be disappointed. On the other hand, if you enjoy dealing with serious issues (at a movie) as well as Theoligical and Philosophical ideals, then I believe you would enjoy it. |
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MasterFuu
Posts: 434 Location: Phoenix, AZ |
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Good point Kazuki. I agree with what you said about the deep issues and if you like it you'll enjoy the movie. I do like these kind of movies. I love GITS, Jin-Roh, WOH and Patlabor 2 for example. They don't have much action but I rally like them (have on DVD or VHS every title). I think GITS 2 missed the point of moving forward with story. It was basic idea from first movie and didn't go as far as I expected it would
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I still recommend GITS2 to anyone since it has it's good points, too. |
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GATSU
Posts: 16424 |
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Kazuki:
It almost makes no sense that an innovative director like Oshii would rip off Blade Runner and even prematurely apologize for his final product in Animerica, but it happened. Still, at least Oshii has enough originality left that I didn't just feel like I was watching a big-budget oav on the big screen like I did with Blood.
I really hate when people say that, because it's quite condescending. Intelligence is not determined by how chaotically a film is constructed, no matter what Anno (and maybe Aronofosky) would have you believe. And frankly, I consider Innocence to be a mess at times. I.G. either should've cut the budget for the cgi, so they could extend the film by 20 minutes and explore more of the concepts, or it should've done a better job tying the action scenes in with the rest of the film, as they feel quite forced, unlike those in the original. |
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Kazuki-san
Posts: 2251 Location: Houston, TX |
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Actually it's not condescending, unless you choose it to be. Some people like to go to the movies and not have to think too deeply about things. Not to say that they don't think, but rather they don't want to be thinking about questions such as what it is to be human. On the flipside there are people that do like to think like that. It's not condescending, it's a fact. It has nothing to do with intelligence, and I never said it did. Just because I actively going over the Philosophical issues while watching Innocence, doesn't mean I'm smarter than a frying pan (although I hope I am). That's just the way I am. Others are like that and some aren't.Just because someone would rather stay passive in a movie, doesn't mean they aren't the smartest person on earth either. It's just a preference, as I said. If you aren't the type that will think of the deeper issues that Oshii is discussing, then you probably won't like Innocence. I do agree with you that it could have been longer, but then again, the original GitS could have been longer and explained more as well. I watched it again the other night in preparation for Innocence, and realized how short it actually was, and how little of what was going on was explained. |
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