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Forum - View topicRahXephon, Madoka, and criticism.
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Otaking09
Posts: 637 |
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*twiddling thumbs*
@dtm (and anyone else) Also, before you (or anyone else) strike, please note the hows and whys you appreciate what you do and give me similar examples in other shows. Despite you (or anyone else) labeling them "Masterpieces", they aren't noitaminA-class different so you shouldn't have too much problem cluing me in to what I'm seriously misunderstanding. Also, please remember that I'm only doing this because I don't believe the shows deserve the praise they are given; this is solely based on personal preferences so "convincing others to join sides" isn't my aim. Only to get how someone else did. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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If you start the topic, the onus of discussion is on you, not us. If you really care, there is already a huge thread for Madoka on the current page (although it might move to the second page shortly), and there are 5 threads for RahXephon listed in the stickied "ANN Series Discussion" thread.
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Otaking09
Posts: 637 |
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dtm wanted a new thread, I'm not a techie (probably not required to do what you're saying), and I've tried to see if any of the suggestions above you mentioned were... tame enough (plus... I really don't know how!)
Besides, what's the harm doing this here separately? At the end of the day (...hopefully...), I'll just delete since I'm mostly curious about dtm's angle. I'll welcome any other person's comments, but I'm trying to approach the matters as anti-fanboy/pro-critique as much as possible while also laying subjective preference as the ultimate deciding factor. Win-Win; this can either be very short and points will be formed with passionate brevity or we can deconstruct to the point it's nitpicking. As long as it's all relevant, calm, and understandable, no one should have any issue. Unless, I'm still missing something? |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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You do realise that putting both series in the same thread means we have to use spoiler tags for both, since many people may have seen one or the other but perhaps not both.
I'm supposed to be coming up with writeups for the tournament, but I'll deal with this first.
How so? I can't even argue against this if I have no idea in what way you think spoiler[it is a mess.] I would agree that spoiler[there was more material than could be fitted in to two cour's worth of episodes, but the plot itself is not a mess in my view.]
spoiler[The primary and secondary characters are all fleshed out, except maybe Ayato's father. Would have liked to have seen more of him. And yes, tertiary characters (including some members of TERRA) are mere one-note personalities. This is not new. This is not really a mark against the show. Some may argue that no characters should be introduced into a story if they are not important to the story in some way, but a television series only has so much time available to it. It cannot flesh out every character. And the reason the show has so many characters is not because they are needed individually but required collectively. The world needs to be populated with people for the sake of realism. Otherwise you have the Planzet problem where an entire fortress - the one that alone protects humankind from imminent destruction - is staffed with a half-dozen people.]
spoiler[Symbolism was ambiguous if you merely watched the show. If however you do your homework you'll find out that all the symbolism is relevant. For example, why does Reika wear a yellow dress and is frequently depicted as standing on a higher elevation than Ayato? Because it is a reference to the Dandelion Girl. Yes, ordinarily if a show sets homework it is an indication of bad writing. But to enjoy this show you don't need to know what the symbols mean and you do not need to catch all the references. They are not critical to interpreting the plot. They do however give you a greater appreciation of the show and its themes, so when I rewatched RahXephon I enjoyed it a heck of a lot more than I already did.] spoiler[The only thing I will concede here is that if you aren't familiar with James Churchward there is a steep learning curve, and even then the show assumes you know certain things (there is a reason why all of the Mulian cities float in midair, but the show never mentions it). However, that isn't too bad, because since RahXephon was originally televised it gave viewers entire weeks to do the research. With the DVD release viewers have as much time to figure things out as they want and need before watching the next episode. And the series explicitly states early on that Churchward's writings on the Mu were relevant.] spoiler[So basically, the writers assumed the viewers were smart enough to search for information themselves rather than be told everything through infodumps in the show itself. I like that.]
spoiler[Disorganised in what way? I thought the motivations of all the characters were clear, or at least clear enough.] spoiler[Bahbem wanted to watch the two worlds collide; he didn't care what the new world would look like, but he wanted to at least have a front-row seat. Hence why he had used the bodies of his own descendants to transfer his mind to, so he could live long enough to watch it.] spoiler[The three children (now grown up) had been used as test subjects, and all three resented it (in different ways).] spoiler[Maya was a bit ambiguous, but no overly so. She did love her son (even though Ayato was biologically her nephew), and she did clash with the higher ups regarding his training. I'm not sure exactly what she wanted out of the process, or what her views were on the reformed world, but it was obvious that her priority was to keep him safe. Hence, her distaste with how he was being put in danger all of the time.] spoiler[I could go on and cover every character, but it would be better if you went back and actually studied the characters again rather than have me spell everything out for you.]
Oh really? See, this is where it goes from just being your opinion to being outright factually incorrect. spoiler[There was plenty of hinting, the plot was always about retuning the world and the show made no attempt to hide it. The ending was not rushed, it was beautifully paced. The kiss came in episode twenty-two if I recall correctly, which tied up that subplot. The actual tuning took up much of the last three episodes. Where you got the rushed part from I do not know, but it ain't true.]
spoiler[Undeserving? Ayato rebuilt the world to be peaceful so he could live a normal life with his loved one. He could have retuned the world to make himself emperor or a dictator, but instead he decided that what he most cherished in life was Haruka and a simple, happy life. After all of the crap he had to go through, I'd say he fully deserved that ending. And RahXephon is a love story, it should come as no surprise that the two ended up together.]
spoiler[Well, for me, RahXephon was a great watch that I enjoyed more and more as it went on. And then more and more the second time I watched it.]
spoiler[Texhnolyze was pretentious. RahXephon is an intelligent show for intelligent people.] Can't be effed doing PMMM right now, will do it later. I've got Anime to catch up on as well as a dozen writeups to do for the tournament. |
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Otaking09
Posts: 637 |
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*sigh* I would've thought the title would basically spell out "If you want to critique two largely well known titles because you've seen them and want to address *whatever*, feel free". I guess for the sake of that stray fan who learns something they wouldn't want to here... I'll do like so.
Relevant?
Some key points: 1. Characterization Tactics/Religious Symbolism - Importance and Clarity. Aside from Ayato, Haruka, and anyone else featured in the first ep, there's no cohesive or plotted way we - watchers of any kind of visual medium entertainment - can observe or detect any kind of logical "hint" that we should take note in. I'm describing largely the spoiler[first half; up to when Quon essentially stops her non-sequitar gimmickry (side-note: how can you defend this psuedo-moe character's rampant WTF? behavior? NGE's Rei was questionable too but it was a "little" more easier to enjoy her mysteriousness since she was first treated as a reclusive girl first, and a weird girl second; moe factors or not).] Your points on this regard...
So... your point does nothing for me. And what are you getting at with this? If the symbolism doesn't even properly accent anything (let alone an actual sign within the show that allowed it to be revered as such). The only way I know it had symbolism was because I couldn't recognize the patterns that were bombarded (and not explained thoroughly) throughout the show.
And aside from your James C. comment (which, I'll admit, is a pretty handy way to get a mythos going), this...
...solidifies one of my biggest problems with the show. If a flawlessly storied "Masterpiece" doesn't even spoiler[include all of its brilliance into itself...] then how on earth does Rah qualify? The greatest example I can give of a series including EVERYTHING needed to get EVERYTHING that went on is Legend of the Galactic Heroes: spoiler[Only one ep was needed to explain how earth arrived to where the entire strife takes place and it was done also to serve further plotting purposes.] Rah's lack ofspoiler[ complete exposition] is a... plus then? Oh wait...
...I guess this makes a little sense, although certainly not enough to justify a sophisticated and well-researched/produced anime being made intentionally pretentious. I mean, you've pretty much settled the huge key point of Rah's worth in religious/character - plotting developments since you admit that its very alienating approach is dangerously detrimental to widespread enjoyment. Granted, infodumps are annoying but there's creative ways to do it, and... it's realistic. Okay, on to... 2. Vagueness is the defining feature I see in the cast from Rah. Bahbem -
This... is our spoiler[main villain]? How does the show really even... establish this fact? At least I get now where the director of Eureka 7 got his main idea from in setting up spoiler[Dewey]... I mean seriously, this guy comes across as a classic villain? Not even spoiler[Churchward] can defend this guy's vagueness. Three Children -
Um... the only character whose early personality in the opening side of the series who's actions actually made sense with catharsis was spoiler[Makoto]; hisspoiler[ status and emotional clinging] to how others perceived him actually suits the themes of the show. spoiler[Itsuki] did nothing more than spoiler[spook me (I call him and Quon the "S.O.S. Brigade"= Spooky Olan Siblings And spoiler[Helena]??? Where did the resentment come from that one. I mean... I can't even call this a character, just a plot forwarding device... Maya -
I'll agree with you hands-down that she was one of the most understandable and interpretable characters in the show, but... spoiler[higher-ups?] And if we don't know more than that, then it's pretty safe to say that, spoiler[since both protecting her son and fulfilling her Mu goals were conveniently placed together,] she's ultimately a dry waste of potential. I mean, I know a mild theme in Rah is thespoiler[ scarring of many characters due to their parental/guardianship rearing], but... feels too tacked on for it to be taken or affected seriously...
You're not telling me how/why these character aspects make Rah a masterpiece to you. 3. Plot Outline - Lack of Cohesiveness that casual watchers can enjoy (without having to treat it like a documentary).
The show was always about it? Yes, the show made no attempt to hide it... but it certainly didn't attempt to reveal it! Episodes that have "WTF???" factors that confuse for largely a third of the show: 1. Early 2 eps - spoiler[A typical complaint, but what benefit did showing Reika (physically, at least) that early and with that quick abandonment have anything to do with the show?] It actually sets up the confusion not unlike the spoiler[dances] from Gasaraki, or the spoiler[Hiroko] from Xam'd (I'm not mentioning NGE because the characters were more established first, andspoiler[, at that point,] the bots are (twisted) Real Robots.) 2. Ep 5 - spoiler[What benefit did showing a power of the Rah without anyone really questioning... anything about the bot do for the show? I liked how it illustrated an abstract degree of the symbiosis between Ayato and Rah, but... that's really all this ep did.] It also isn't fun to see confusing things (that are still confusing and unexplained for 5 eps so far) be waved off in favor of lax, easily distinguished characterization alone. 3. Eps 6 to 8 - spoiler[Consistent need to waste episodes on "characterization dumping".] Yes, actions speak louder than words but every single one of these spoiler[characters are ultimately pointless and forgettable in the long run]. 4. Ep 9 - .....spoiler[okay, what the hell was this ep trying to prove??? Seriously, the above mentioned eps just contribute to poor exposition IMO, but this ep is the first REAL sign of greater elements at large!] And... I dunno, you're just gonna have to explain this to me. Other than the (breezily mentioned) fact that the spoiler[shrine was/is an entryway for some Mu to enter into this world. Which is how Ayato, Quon, Maya, and so on develop their primary agendas as well as the plot...] But there's absolutely nothing that complements those facts and it's cheap because nothing connects those two elements together in a way audiences can be amazed to relish in. 5. Ep 10 - spoiler[Back to characterization infodumping again?] Confusing in a whole new different way... 6. Ep 11 - Arguably, the best episode in the whole series. Not only does this confirm that the other characters were bogus excuses at world building (spoiler[NGE's methods of world building was a little more creative; having rival companies develop different bots, showing how powerful a single Angel can be [and how much power it takes... like needing all the power in a country], how weak and useless preceding warfare methods are like how sadly exploited the navy is toyed for Asuka's assault. We learn more about main characters and we learn more about the world... without infodumping too!]), but it also shows Rah's top quality of decrypting Ayato's spoiler[uncertainty and doubt of everything he's (seemingly) embraced up til now...] and giving the first real hint of one of the show's direction and goal (spoiler[Ayato's affection for Haruko and all it entails]). It's the coolest ep for simply addressing problems that make logical sense. 7. Ep 12 - More mysteries; still no answers.spoiler[ More terminology we don't get, more complicating Quon without still making her approachable in terms of liking her as a character.] Granted, this episode, while it's largely like #3, it does bear foreshadowing that is relevant. But it also shows Rah's greatest weakness in needlessly wasting a single episode to simply throw one more asteroid into Jupiter, hasn't been resolved. I'm gonna stop here only just to prove that Rah's set-up is so questionable (even if you were to soundly explain/rationalize the method behind the madness), that it's no real wonder why many people have a real hard time digesting the plot. 4. Ending - Deserved or Rushed? spoiler[Undeserving? Ayato rebuilt the world to be peaceful so he could live a normal life with his loved one. He could have retuned the world to make himself emperor or a dictator, but instead he decided that what he most cherished in life was Haruka and a simple, happy life. After all of the crap he had to go through, I'd say he fully deserved that ending. And RahXephon is a love story, it should come as no surprise that the two ended up together.] Yeah... but there wasn't any real issue with Ayato wanting that though huh? Y'see, (and I don't like making comparisons with NGE if you think I do) NGE, as a whole parable of "spoiler[should we save the human race when we - pilots, scientists, soldiers, and kids - are so f'd up?]" gave an excess of subtle signs which, actually, supported pro-spoiler[oblivion] vs. a blurry concept called spoiler[happiness]. Rah's ending (spoiler[and when I mean ending, I mean Ayato's epiphany that felt far too easy and shoehorned]), didn't really seem to have a bearing based on... anything from the characters' plight. Putting aside how empty spoiler[Quon] is throughout the show (and I still can't believe that she plays such a pivotal role...), what theme (other than a lazy involvement of self-expression [spoiler[music, painting]]) connected to the characters' struggle that justified a spoiler[complete and happy] ending? You say a clumsily structured love story (spoiler[boy I felt bad for Haruka after learning how much she had to put up with; truly the only sympathetic character, if the only real character]), but how could Ayato create a life he doesn't know or has never really known? I guess you could say thespoiler[ feeling behind the painting; the sentiment of love] is enough... but not for me. My ultimate disdain for the ending is that the massive amount of spoiler[symbolism, mythos, characters, universal themes of scarring kids], is ALL squandered for a romantic nuance that squeezed its way into the plot through vagueness and then that's enough for spoiler[Ayato to justify his place only because it, technically, WAS the only real thing he actually knew and believed in]? I mean, c'mon.spoiler[ And the visions of everyone who didn't play a big part in Ayato's life is shoehorned in because they're proof that it's all worth it?] This isn't an epic ending that we're anticipating after 26 eps of patient absorbing watching, this is a sappy cop-out that detracts the airy explanations away so you remember what the main two leads care about. I would've actually loved the ending if itsspoiler[ cataclysmic scale of world building/destruction boiled down to something practical that everyone (in the show or out) could identify with]; which is why I proudly consider End of Evangelion to be one of the greatest endings in fiction because the spoiler[weight of Shinji and his choices feels real and disturbingly engaging; he's not just thinking about his feelings for one person because it goes bigger than that.] To quote one of my favorite directors, Woody Allen: (coining) "Love is an answer to life's misery but it's not the only answer and it isn't enough to go through life ..." Ironically, he also says: "...but when you tell a story in fiction and movies saying that it is... well, people like that so they buy tickets." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6aU0Xryvrg&feature=related
Well, I'm glad, but now I'm curious to know what movies you like. What's the RahXephon equivalent?
The image I have for Tex is David Lynch; totally reliant on moods, feelings, and struggles that interconnect in some ways... and then don't. Cohesiveness isn't the aim, or the source of the entertainment, of that show. The act of feeling out what the early episodes mean and how those shadowy presences evolve into readable actions, and then we have characters drawn from early feelings burnt into our senses so when we watch every move of every character carefully... we really want to know, not so much the show's/characters purpose, but why it's being told this way. No philosophizing, no infodumping, no oddball element that wasn't alluded at somewhere along the ride, and then the point comes across as harshly as it should. Of course... I'm only describing Tex's effectiveness in terms of its intent; not that the Lynchian approach is better to Rah, but you lost me with why you'd compare it? Tex isn't pretentious because the expo is unique and we either care to decipher or we don't; we either are intrigued or not. An example that supersedes both Rah and Tex isspoiler[ Ergo Proxy since that has multiple thematics that are sparse but unpredictable, the characters are actually very interesting and well drawn, and the setting was interestingly used creatively (with only heavy, but understandable infodumping for its end).] Rah has intelligent make-up, no denying that... But I can't help but compare its overall structure as being as intelligently made as the Star Wars prequels; too much elements, too many episodes wasted, and it boiled down to a sweet, cozy emblem we all adore and encourage (Rah, it's love; Star Wars prequels is Vader). If anything I've mentioned above makes sense to you as a problem you could understandably accept from a different show, then I wait for round 2. Can't wait for Madoka; at least that show is half the eps! *wipes sweat* |
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yamata no orochi
Posts: 137 |
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I think Rahxephon is a pretty good show. It's tempting to say that it's derivative of Neon Genesis Evangelion, but I think that it's more accurate to say that it self-references Evangelion. That is, it's a deliberate homage whose intent is to take its predecessor, pare down the rough edges, stick a more likable protagonist in the lead role and generally make the whole thing a lot more coherent. There were some moments in it--spoiler[like the death in episode 19, for instance]--that are probably up there with the all-time greats.
I don't like it as much as Evangelion, mostly because I thought the rough edges were part of what made Evangelion interesting. But if you prefer coherency and intelligence to obsessive but probably faulty genius, then I can certainly see why people might prefer the former to the latter. As for Madoka, I thought it was pretty great because: a. it was flawlessly paced b. it was one of the first Shinbou shows I'd seen where it felt like the writer was able to hold his own against the director c. the art, music, fight sequences were incredibly stylish d. the show had ambition to try for what Evangelion did in half the length, and then spoiler[rebuild everything, justifying exactly what it spent its time tearing down] Neither Madoka nor Rahxephon are in my top ten; Princess Tutu (Madoka's eternal enemy, it seems) is above both of them, for what it's worth. But I'd say the two of them are legitimately great shows. Not masterpieces (then again, the only "masterpieces" I've seen are probably Haibane Renmei, FLCL and Revolutionary Girl Utena) but easily good enough to recommend to just about anybody. Maybe even better then great, depending on your tastes. |
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Otaking09
Posts: 637 |
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Yes, I wanted to think of Rah in that way too since NGE has a lot of detailing that they don't always use, but NGE's cast made almost all of that incongruous since the plot's rough course made all the character journey's supremely juicy and almost unmatched with thematic affection power. Thing is, all of Rah's great moments were only about moments like
In fact, another reason I hated the ending is that it made all of Ayato's spoiler[school buddies]' excellent backstories (I feel like they had some of the best potential for the plot) feel totally copped out.
What falls into what? Both series' biggest flaws was the overdense plotting that they dug themselves into. NGE redeemed itself with a flawlessly designed flawed cast, and Rah makes fairy tale characters outta them; maybe the people who RahXephon the best are people who dig The Notebook or Titanic. Since both come off as too meandering and self-important (like Rah), I could only wince during some of the best parts.
a. I agree; despite being bored with the show, pacing was not one of the reasons. b. Examples of this? Shinbou, in my eyes, is a rampant stylist first and a spastic adaptor 2nd; you're almost always going to entertained with his stuff in some form since it's so crazy it's almost artistic camp. I'd like to see him make something edgier and more slice-of-life/psyche oriented, but he's no Yuasa. c. The fight scenes were very Tim Burton-ish but the music was way too low and downbeat; plus Kajura doesn't exactly push her style hard. The art didn't appeal to me since the animation didn't flaunt it like arthouse anime would for that level of ambition and overused it only for fighting; very one-note designing. d. Eva could only succeed because it rose above what it tore down; became more than style and its approach to is what makes it so amazing. Tutu is the same; how it approached the fairy-tail nature of magical girl genre was very different, and thematically rose above the convention. The only thing Madoka does to the genre is prove that it can be looked upon with a dark atmosphere but there is no theme or rhyme or reason to it so it's effectively style/mood porn. |
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