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Forum - View topicForum Moderation
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daxomni
Posts: 2650 Location: Somewhere else. |
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I'm honestly surprised you missed it on page 3...
Oh wait, no I'm not. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Let me ask you something: if someone in real life came up and started slinging vicious insults at you, would you say "sir please kindly stop insulting me" or would you say "hey buddy, go to hell!". I'd say the latter. I'd say the latter in a professional situation, too. Taking mountains of shit and never standing up for yourself or ever letting someone know in no uncertain terms that they're a jackass isn't "professionalism", it's just being a doormat, someone so obsessed with making sure nobody thinks he or she has a backbone that they're not willing to tell someone to go jump. Have I acted inappropriately in the past? Of course. There have been times where I was rude to someone who didn't really deserve it, and I regret those times. I've even privately apologized to people. I'm not perfect, I have a short temper and I can be pretty cutting with my words. These are things I need to work on, and I can admit that. But I'm not going to let some angry, irrational douchebag on the internet make me feel like shit just because I work here. I don't deserve that. I stand up for myself when someone attacks me, period. It's not like everyone who gets banned gets that treatment. 90 percent of all bans are very simple "you can't do that here" statements, without any further comment or insult or whatever. You're talking about extreme cases. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar Posts: 16983 |
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Ok, I concede that point to you. Sometimes is, but I think this particular topic isn't. Of course it directly affect me so maybe I'm a bit biased.
I certainly don't expect the moderators, or anyone else for that matter, to let me fling rocks at them and degrade them verbally while I piss on them and expect them to do what I ask. I know I've been blunt to a fault at times but I do my very best to never act like that, without damn good reason of course. If any of the moderator feels I have done that to them then by all means PM me and let me know. While I do speak up when something is on my mind I always try to listen to the other side as well to be fair. I know your comment Zac wasn't personally directed at me. I just wanted to speak my mind on that subject.
Ok let me rephrase. I meant I was surprised no moderators or admin had said that. I knew you had. |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Zac: In your example it is kinda a different case, because its tougher to just ignore em in real life or walk away. If someone starts flaming you on the internet though, you can easilly just stop responding. Let them make an ass of themselves. You know theyre just making an ass of themselves and what theyre saying isnt true. If theyre just being an irrational idiot I just dont waste time with a response. Or if theyre at least semi coherent I'll sometimes tell em that theyre being obnoxious and therefore Im not going to continue the discussion.
Theres a big difference between being a doormat and just ignoring someone whos being an ass though. Also its one thing to tell someone if theyre being obnoxious but its another to get drawn into a stupid petty flame war. Or also, if youre actually defending yourself with an actual arguement, thats one thing. By that though I mean actually offering an intelegent arguement in your defence. Also, all this aside, I still think its a bad idea to take the attidude that you will only be respectful to someone if they are to you. This can only lead to trouble. Also, theres really no point in getting mad when someones a jerk, especially on the internet. Sorry, Im more speaking in general terms at this point, not specifically in response to what youve said. |
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Porcupine
Posts: 1033 |
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If the person insulting you became physically violent or their behavior escalated to the point where they are breaking the law, then you could call the police or security and have them thrown out, sure. But that is not what we are talking about here. Of course, no one said Anime News Network has to be run professionally, either. But the attitudes of some of (not all) the mods, which are slowly being revealed in this thread, leads me to believe that this site and forum may not be run to a professional standard. So what does this mean, and what is this worth? Probably nothing, but you never know. In any case, I also agree 101% with everything Ikillchicken has been saying. In particular, mods have great power, and with great power comes great responsibility, right? By being a mod, even if you don't get paid, it's still a responsibility, and a mod should realize that because of what he is, he shouldn't quite act in the way a normal user would. He should try to be the better man, for numerous reasons. There's no law that says mods have to believe that their great power requires great responsibility, though. Mods can behave like Vegeta, and just blow away and ban whoever they don't like, whenever they want. Is that what Anime News Network is supposed to be about? That's up to the site administrators and moderators to decide for themselves. |
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Tony K.
SubscriberModerator Posts: 12083 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Good grief, you all are still arguing this stuff
In psycho 101's case, I received a PM from him and was able to re-interpret his situation as a simple misunderstanding. I then sent a PM to tempest to explain my new findings and I'm guessing it was enough to unban psycho. Iwatch is a little different, though. We've had numerous PMs from other users and multiple reports of his posts for being erratic, off-topic, or leading to off-topic discussion. When he first joined as Animefreak6969, I sent him a few PMs just warning and advising him about his behavior to try and tone it down. Of course, he got banned anyway, but when he came back under the Iwatch account, I was also the first to notice, but I didn't care, so long as he learned his lesson. For a while, it actually looked like he did learn to tone it down. But for whatever reason, he just gradually reverted back to the same behavior. It started bugging some users (and staff), and I guess provided enough testimony and evidence, the people upstairs were convinced he needed another ban. If my intuition serves me right, I think the "deal" was that the Iwatch account would be unbanned and his My Anime list kept intact so long as he didn't post, but that didn't work out either. We'll let him and Admin. settle it for now, but please, all of you just rest assured that this particular issue should only be about Iwatch at the moment. If I'm missing something, please PM me, and I'll try to settle things as best as possible. Thanks. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Thanks for this "advice" I guess but I've always had this attitude and I've never been fired or even threatened with it in the 9 years I've been working in this industry. The truth is, nobody in the industry in a professional situation behaves like a petulant, crude, angry 9-year old seeking attention by attacking the people in charge. It never happens in that space, so there's no comparison to make. So when dealing with petulant, crude, angry 9-year olds on the forums, they don't get the same Zac that walks into a business meeting. Catch my drift on that one?
You are aware that the forums are a relatively small part of this site, right? Dealing with the forums is maybe 1 percent of my job? You're casting mass generalizations about the site and my professional demeanor based on something that simply does not really impact my job that much. You seem very set in your opinions and have a clear-cut version of the way you think things should be run and also appear to believe you have a full and competent understanding of exactly how we operate, how I think, why I do the things I do and what we should do to change. I'm not sure I can argue with you on this because I don't think you're really willing to listen to me nor are willing to admit that you might not be right on the issue. That's the impression I'm getting, although I could be wrong. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar Posts: 16983 |
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I'm glad the issues is seeming to be taken seriously so I will patiently await to hear any official news from the staff side.
We're just having spirited debate Tony. Well I guess in my case my PM's and email probably meant crap in terms of my ban being lifted. On one hand I'm grateful Tony for your help, on the other dismayed that it seems what I said to Tempest myself probably amounted to a hill of beans. I had hoped he had heard what I had to say and decided maybe to be nice, oh well.
This makes me want to see what business Zac looks like. |
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Porcupine
Posts: 1033 |
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> Thanks for this "advice" I guess but I've always had this attitude and I've never been fired or even threatened with it in the 9 years I've been working in this industry.
In most cases it doesn't happen even when it should, and I have no idea what your own case is like. But I've seen it happen sometimes as well. The fact that it does happen, even if just sometimes, is an indicator of what is truly the "professional" way to conduct oneself. > The truth is, nobody in the industry in a professional situation behaves like a petulant, crude, angry 9-year old seeking attention by attacking the people in charge. It never happens in that space, so there's no comparison to make. I don't know what is this "industry" you speak of. We never defined an explicit industry, we were talking about professionalism in general. There are many industries where the people in charge are occasionally attacked by clients/customers/users and they have to put up with it, if they want to survive. > You are aware that the forums are a relatively small part of this site, right? Dealing with the forums is maybe 1 percent of my job? I was not aware of the exact figures, but I was aware that the forums are not the main feature of Anime News Network. Nevertheless, retaining some sense of professionalism in the forums is still important. Relying on the excuse that the forums are only a small part of the site so they don't matter too much, sounds to me like 'shirking responsibility' again. > You're casting mass generalizations about the site and my professional demeanor based on something that simply does not really impact my job that much. True. And so you don't care about this forum, because it does not impact your job that much. Is that what you are saying? That's what it sounds like to me. > You seem very set in your opinions and have a clear-cut version of the way you think things should be run For the most part, this is true I agree. > and also appear to believe you have a full and competent understanding of exactly how we operate, how I think, why I do the things I do... Untrue. I know very little about how this site is run, how the mods think, etc. That is the reason I am speaking in this thread, to try to learn more. And as this discussion continues, what I am slowly learning about some of the mods is extremely disturbing. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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I didn't say that, I said they weren't that big a part of my job. My point is that if I'm rude to someone who's rude to me on the forums, it simply isn't that big a deal, as you seem to think it is. You also seem dead-set on interpreting everything that's been said by the mods and administrators in as negative a light as you possibly can. You seem to already have this idea that we're a bunch of unprofessional, rude, jackbooted thugs who care not for our forum users and instead thirst for the tears that pour from the eyes of innocent otaku whenever we breathe fire at them, and whatever we say you're going to interpret as further evidence to fit that conclusion. It makes talking to you very difficult because unless I can string together the magic phrase that's going to get you to understand that your thinking on the issue is misguided, I'm only going to dig myself deeper.
Please outline what you feel is "extremely disturbing" so I can respond to that directly and also please tell me how you think things should operate. I'm being gnuine here in that you may have some good ideas, and therefore I'm interested in hearing what you have to say. |
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jgreen
Posts: 1325 Location: St. Louis, MO |
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Um, why was this thread locked? I understand there's already a sub-vs.-dub thread, but I think the question of whether the bar has been set higher for dubs in recent years is a completely different discussion.
Please bear in mind I have not read the sub-vs.-dub thread because I personally have no interest in comparing subs and dubs against each other (I've heard both sides of that argument so many times that it makes me want to bash my head into a brick wall whenever the subject pops up in a thread it shouldn't be in), but I find the idea of comparing dubs now against older dubs and figuring out where the "bar" is for a good dub to be an interesting one. |
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Tony K.
SubscriberModerator Posts: 12083 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Because of statements like this turning it into a debate:
The moment someone states a preference, it's all just another sub/dub debate. Had the thread shown more of an actual discussion with old references, current comparisons, or whatever, then yes, it would've been what the topic implied. However, only one or two people even attempted that, so I didn't see the point in starting a similar thread when we already have one going. If you or someone else would like to start another thread and keep heavy surveillance on it to report posts that'll throw it completely off course (which I'll be happy to delete if you do report them), then by all means, have at it |
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Tempest
I Run this place.ANN Publisher Posts: 10539 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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Sorry I haven't responded to this thread earlier, Anime Expo, as well as other upcoming conventions and other ANN related business have kept me very busy. Please understand that I'm not busy from day one to day 4 of a convention, I'm busy from day -10 to day +10. Outside of the convention season I read every forum here daily, however right now all I can afford is a daily, cursory glance at the talkback forum. Not even daily.
Regarding Iwatchtomuchanime I have nothing to say. I will not publicly discuss problems between ANN and any particular individual user. I would also ask the admins and moderators to abide by this from this point forward. Regarding bans, we try to be as fair as possible, but please understand that this place is not a democracy. The definition of "fair" is my definition. Generally speaking, we will warn people before taking action. However, depending on the severity of the issue, the warning may be in the form of a temp-ban itself, or there may be no warning at all. For example, any person caught issuing physical threats, using racial slurs, or using extremely vulgar language will be permanently banned instantly. Normally we will also try to include a personalized ban message stating why the person has been banned, and if/when the ban expires. Sometimes that's not necessary because the reason is obvious. If a person feels that their permanent ban is unfair, they can e-mail me at editor[at]animenewsnetwork.com. However, given my schedule, be prepared for a long delay in getting a response. Nine times out of ten I will not revoke a permanent ban (to date, I regret most times that I have). I am considering assigning someone as a forum "ombudsman" to deal with ban problems and unfair moderation. However this has not yet happened, so until it does, I am your one and only recourse; don't expect charity if you annoy me. As Abunai has stated, bans are not always the result of a single post. Continuous near/minor violations of the rules, will result in bans. If you haven't already, I strongly suggest you read the rules. For example, frequent one liners , or generally un-contributory posts could get you banned. Anything you do that makes this forum unenjoyable to other people might be reason enough to get you banned. Anyone caught creating secondary accounts in order to get around a ban will only hurt their cause. Currently only admins can ban people, but I plan on giving the moderators access to temp bans soon. Regarding delays to getting PM's answered, please understand that we're all busy sometimes. Right now I'm busy with work, next month Nagisa might be busy with exams, etc... The moderators are all volunteers, who do this mostly thankless job because they care about the quality of the ANN forums, they are not required to keep professional working habits. So give it a couple days or so. If it's extremely urgent, PM more than one mod (and let the other's know once one mod has answered), if it's not extremely urgent, then just be patient. Waiting 5 days to post "What's the best ..." won't hurt you. If you wait a loooong time, re-send the PM, we forgot about you (sorry), we didn't ignore you. I apologize for any delays, I'd prefer that they not happen, but unless ANN starts charging money for forum access, we can't afford a full time always on moderator. Regarding Private Messages Your private messages are private unless the person you sent them to decides to share them. No moderation of PMs is enforced, although the word filter is active. However the rules do still apply to PMs, and if anyone reports someone for breaking the rules in a PM, that person will be dealt with as if they had made the same post publicly. It is up to the admin's discretion to decide whether someone's PM rights should be removed instead of a ban. -t |
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daxomni
Posts: 2650 Location: Somewhere else. |
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I have a suggestion for threads that get locked early in their life. Can they simply be deleted and then have whatever message would have gone in the locking notice simply be PM'd to the user (assuming they deserve a notice)? I think sometimes all the short-lived locked threads clutter up the forum and I would prefer that they simply be deleted as they once were previously.
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LydiaDianne
Posts: 5634 Location: Southern California |
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I agree with dax. If there has been the original post and a reply by a mod, it really should be deleted. |
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