Forum - View topicVinland Saga (TV) (all seasons).
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2834 |
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Because the original line is 戦は将棋とは違うんだよな. This is a Japanese writer writing a period piece set in the Viking Ages, it's no surprise he uses terms which his core audience understands (Shougi comes readily into mind for the Japanese, not to mention unlike chess the concept of betrayal is incorporated into the game rules). For that matter, Vikings would have known about chess or one of its primitive variants as evidenced by the Lewis chess set in the British Museum. Unfortunately the writer has to cater for his core audience, while translators doing this series can't substitute Shougi for Chess because the board games are completely different and not perfect substitutes when it comes to accurate translation. |
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ACｘS
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It's times like these when breaking the fourth wall is much more hassle-free than being faithful to historical accuracy.
Every time I see two characters from different cultural backgrounds talk to each other like natives in an anime (except for this one apparently), I'll be down for it. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2834 |
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#20
Long time no see, Floki. You have no recollection of who Thorfinn is, so the only one who can tell him of your involvement in Thors's death is Askeladd and he's not going to say anything unless it's to his benefit. Floki is in Harald's camp, so it's a nasty surprise for him to see Cnut the way he is rather than the soft weakling he was previously. This is the first time viewers see Sweyn Forkbeard in the flesh, although he's so old now the Forkbeard moniker no longer applies. It's quite something for the writer to set up an attempted assassination in the King's Hall, only for Askeladd to intervene and defuse the situation. What's really interesting is how Sweyn managed to accurately ascertain Askeladd's background just from his name, as well as the reaction which it elicited which surprised even Thorfinn with its intensity. Sweyn has now marked Askeladd as a dangerous foe, which is an added complication for the pirate leader at another crossroads in his life. How ironic that the one follower remaining from his pirate days is Thorfinn, who wants to kill him in a duel first chance he gets. The historical record for Cnut shows he did become ruler of the Danelaw, but it is not as straightforward as it appears in this series. I'm not sure how the series will approach this in the remaining airtime it has, but the internecine plotting cannot be drawn out if there's to be a satisfactory conclusion to this adaptation. Another face not see for a long time is Leif Erikson. He's been looking for Thorfinn all this time, and he's now close with Thorfinn presumably still in Gainsborough. |
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ACｘS
Posts: 877 |
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20:
I see how the story is going to be now: a complex game of chess (or shogi, if you find this reference acceptable). Rather than deciding what to do, it's more about knowing what not to do; in this case, it's about achieving the long-term goal. King Sweyn is right about one thing: Askeladd is the one guy he should be wary about, perhaps even more than future usurper Canute. He deduced Askeladd's background quite sharply but I can tell that he's doing it for a reason: he said it out of spite towards Askeladd for talking back (it could be just a callous passing remark, but I personally don't think so). Not sure if he knows that Askeladd felt the 'burn', nor if he predicted correctly that Askeladd wouldn't lose his cool in that delicate situation. And in turn Askeladd learns that King Sweyn is no coot; he's the king for a reason. I'm not sure how Floki's role will play out from now on as far as Thorfinn is concerned. Only Askeladd knows his involvement in Thors's death, but of course the wily ol' man will keep this extra info for later use. Not sure how Leif's imminent appearance will play out, either. Looks like the new battleground - literally and figuratively - will be in York. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2834 |
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#21
1014, York. It will not be long before Sweyn's historical fate is decided, but before that there is the small matter of Thorfinn and Askeladd to settle. Askeladd is doing all he can to fulfil Cnut's wish to become King, but he may not live to see the Prince crowned as Thorfinn wants him dead before the Royal Council. Cnut is serving as witness to the duel, but will he stop it if Askeladd is going to die? Of the two assets at his disposal, the more important he needs to stay ahead in the race for the throne is certainly Askeladd. Long time no see, Leif Erikson. Eleven years have changed you so much Thorfinn doesn't recognise you. For that matter, Thorfinn is completely unrecognisable from the brat who was a stowaway on his Father's ship. It's interesting Thorfinn didn't ask about his family, but about Vinland first of all. Even if he gets his revenge, Thorfinn intends to start a new life in Vinland where he believes there won't be war and he can find peace. Surprisingly, his mother is still alive despite looking like she had consumption shortly after Thors was killed. Bjorn must have challenged Askeladd knowing he didn't have much time left before a natural death, and the berserker preferred to die at the hands of his commander and friend to give him a chance to go to Valhalla. It wasn't a fair fight since Bjorn looked dead on his feet from fever, but Askeladd didn't sweat too much in finishing him off with a single blow so Thorfinn doesn't get too much of an advantage going second. Not long to go, and if earlier posts are any indication this series will deviate from its source material to give a definitive conclusion to the adaptation. I'm not bothered either way, so long as the ending is satisfactory. |
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ACｘS
Posts: 877 |
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21:
Askeladd masterminding a conspiracy, Viking style. Hiring a hit-man to "assassinate" not-Canute and making Thorfinn clean up the mess (that's what Thorfinn is to Askeladd, isn't it: errand boy), and even Canute is in it. It's basically Game of Thrones right now: the end justifies the means, and it's more about outwitting your enemies than outwardly killing them in honorable duels (as how Thorfinn pointed out when scouting the King's residence). But that raises the question: what about Canute's resolve to create 'Paradise' and his advocacy for God's love? Violence is not the answer, unless it's for the purpose of propelling him to power? Now you can start to see that nobody is exactly virtuous here, including Canute. Justify his cause all you want; if bringing Paradise means wasting a few lives and hatching conspiracies, then it's fine right? I think something bad is going to happen to Erikson. Thorfinn, the ever revenge-obsessed errand boy, keeps looking forward to killing Askeladd without being aware that he still have plenty to lose (not just his father). It's also tragic because it's tragic: Erikson has no idea what Thorfinn has done (killing, assisting in pillaging) for more than a decade just to have his fight with Askeladd. There's no way the kid is just going to turn around and go home; if something bad does happen to Erikson, then Thorfinn is going down the void even further. btw im changing my avatar; thorkell is too awesum |
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15457 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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Canute did not seem to be aware that the body double was going to be assassinated, that Askeladd, and Canute tried to have her saved and ordered that no more such body doubles be sacrificed. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2834 |
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#22
Considering how easily Askeladd has beaten Thorfinn again, he does have a point when he says the boy hasn't learned anything despite serving under his father's killer for a decade (!). Askeladd using his own childhood told Thorfinn exactly what he did in the same situation, the difference being he was successful in only needing two years and getting off scot-free at the end. Askeladd knows he'd never beat Thorkell in a straight fight ever, which gives more credence to Thorkell's assertion that there's no such thing as simple rankings to rate warriors. Now that he mentions it, there's a similarity in how Thorfinn looks to Vinland as his salvation and Askeladd's mother's belief in the paradise Artorius was recuperating in. Both lands are metaphorically and physically distant from the reality the warriors live in and are a source of salvation and hope to those who make ends meet. Askeladd gave up on his paradise long ago and compromises by serving the King he deems worthy of creating the world his esteemed ancestor should have returned to do, but Thorfinn can still chase his dream with Leif Erikson and the rest of his family if only he would give up his quest for revenge. That's not going to happen for as long as Askeladd remains alive, and if Thorfinn doesn't learn anything from his latest duel it's never going to happen and Askeladd will die by some other means. Not much more airtime to go, so what exactly is going to happen until the end is anyone's guess. There's the royal summit to conclude, so if Sweyn is going to die it'll have to be then as there's no other opportunity for Cnut to replicate what Askeladd did with his father all those years ago. If he does succeed, perhaps it'll teach Thorfinn something about the value of using his brains for the matter of revenge. |
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ACｘS
Posts: 877 |
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23:
Askeladd basically dishing Thorfinn a verbal beat-down, all ten years' worth of it (and basically, everything I've described about what he's doing with the kid from the onset). Askeladd's story is too familiar. Thorfinn's all about yelling honor this and honor that, when Askeladd learns that honor doesn't really amount to nothing. In a way his life is the precursor to Kiekergaard's ideas of existentialism (funnily, Kiekergaard was Danish-Norwegian too). He has faith in God (or specifically, Artorius) but he knows that nobody is going to save him, except himself. Trying to make sense among the most senseless people such as the Vikings, and you have your classic existentialist. We now know the reason behind his hatred towards the Danes (and Vikings in overall), more so when he's also one of them. That's partially the reason he doesn't see himself as a king; he's just a Viking, albeit a wise one who's learned the hard truth. But don't get me wrong; though he's not much about honor, he knows respect. That's why he sent off Bjorn and acknowledges Thors's abilities. But unlike Thorkell, he doesn't see Thorfinn as a respectable warrior. To him, he's just a narrow-minded dog who hasn't grown up after a decade. And that's gonna hurt more to Thorfinn than everything else he's sustained. |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2834 |
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#23
The miscalculation the episode title refers to is Askeladd's expectations of what King Sweyn would do after getting England to submit to his rule. Everything was going to plan had Sweyn wanted to head over to Ireland to take revenge over the tribes there, but as soon as he said he wanted to subjugate Wales in the Spring Askeladd's well-laid plans are now in disarray. Although it's amusing to see Askeladd's brain working in overdrive as he tries to find a way to stop his homeland from being burned to ashes, his fate is probably sealed the moment Floki noticed his reaction to the announcement. Sweyn will start digging into Askeladd's background, and if he finds out Askeladd's parentage there's no way Askeladd will get off scot-free. Something interesting about this: Did Cnut have anything to do with this plan to invade Wales? He may not have been the person he is now, but he DID sign a treaty of non-aggression with the Celtic tribes there in return for safe passage. Is his new ruthless side also on display here, as he realises Askeladd is no longer an asset but a threat to be disposed of like his father thinks? Thorfinn will probably be released from prison once the haughty Danish aristocrat reports his findings to the prince. If he does, he'll probably leave with Leif Erikson assuming he can get over his fixation over revenge. This is probably what earlier reports of the adaptation's divergence with the source material touch on, since an ending where Thorfinn walks away before he can see his revenge completed would end this animated adaptation much more definitively than anything else I can think of. There's a twist to this tale: Historically the Danish army never invades Wales to subjugate it as it does England. Sweyn is only King of the Danelaw for less than half a year, the succession crisis he feared because of his two adult sons never materialises because there is no civil war and an acceptable settlement is reached. Will that be reflected in this series? What then of Askeladd? |
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RedSwirl
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Hold up.
(slight manga spoilers) spoiler[Hadn't King Sweyn already looked up Askeladd's past by the time this scene came up?] |
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2834 |
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#24 End
So King Sweyn looked into Askeladd's background and decided to use that as leverage against him. Too bad he miscalculated and pushed his luck too far. Askeladd had wanted to find a way to save both his homeland and Cnut, but after Sweyn's words he decided on instinct that there was no other choice but to cut off Sweyn's head to ensure Cnut would take the English Crown. Cnut realised it was all an act shortly afterwards, but he's now worthy of taking the crown and realised he had to play along. All Thorkell did was to push him along to do the final deed and earn the respect of all the present Elders. There are no surviving sources which can really tell how Sweyn died suddenly when was King of the Danelaw for just under six months, so it's not as if this interpretation isn't completely impossible. What does happen is historically accurate; Cnut assumes the throne of England and commander of the Danish army. He does not however claim the throne of Denmark as well, which splits the new empire but ensures no civil war. Harald is too far away from events to protest, so his acceptance is a fait accompli. As for Thorfinn, his story ends for now. The object of his revenge via duel is now dead, so whatever happens onwards is down to what he wants to do. Cnut will probably spare him in gratitude for his service to date and consideration of the circumstances, but Thorfinn has to use all the skills he learned under Askeladd's service to forge his own path forward. That story may be told at a later date, or viewers can simply jump in to the rest of the source material which is reportedly in its final arc. For an adaptation called "Vinland Saga", there's been surprisingly little of Vinland portrayed at all. Thorfinn's quest for revenge is quickly supplanted by a much grander tale of how the English Crown passed from Sweyn to Cnut, and the latter's future rise to leader of the short-lived Danelaw. It's been extremely entertaining, if a little slow at times. Thorfinn as a protagonist is found wanting compared to the initial series antagonist Askeladd, who has turned out to be quite the complex character from his initial beginnings. If there is a continuation from this as hinted by those final scenes, it'll be hard to build on from this conclusion. Whichever animation studio taking this up (if the current team stand down) will have expectations to live up to. Last edited by Harleyquin on Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15457 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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Really feels like I am running ragged in keeping up with everything finishing. While I agree that Vinland Saga has a lot of really well made things, have a problem in the show for finding a moral center. Thorfinn just turned to too much of what I would call an evil character, maybe not directly doing evil, but he was on the side of an invading army, where he helped people that were raping and pillaging, and all for a selfish desire of revenge. Even if after this Thorfinn started to go towards redeeming, it feels like far too much whether he would deserve it. He got saved by some people, and then led to their downfall, whether Thorfinn takes responsibility that the old lady was probably killed and that woman raped. There was nothing glorious about these Vikings.
Askeladd at least had people he wanted to protect, even though he could never make up for even more allowing the Vikings to commit atrocities. And even Canute I think could be at real risk of becoming a monster after his broken bird moment. Maybe I was supposed to find some faith in characters, but taken this far, I pretty much see all of them as violent monsters, at least on the Danish side. The entire show was years of Thorfinn trying to get revenge against Askeladd for something that someone else paid him to do, spanning years. Would have thought that there would have been some movement other than Thorfinn better at killing people. Maybe that is all something done on purpose, but it all just kind of started to bother me. I give a rating of Good (7/10). I am sure a lot of others would vote it higher, probably those not so bothered about watching a couple dozen episodes of a child soldier helping Vikings do bad things, as it tries to say that there is a point to it. |
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RedSwirl
Posts: 344 |
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When I originally read these chapters of the manga I was fine with it essentially being a dark story. I don't think it attempts to paint those characters in a heroic light at all. As far as the anime goes, all of this is gonna depend on whether we get another season, as the perspective of the following manga chapters changes drastically. |
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ACｘS
Posts: 877 |
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23-24 (Final):
Great ending. Not over the top, yet not one bit underwhelming. This gets a 8/10 for me. What started out as an epic telling of Viking history slowly developed into a story about tactics, honor, slavery (metaphorical and literal) and all the other deep topics about being a warrior. Although it's action, I feel it's more drama with doses of action. This show got me engaged from episode one, and though it didn't consistently get me hooked week after week, in overall it was a great show. In terms of style it's tempting to compare it with Attack on Titan, but that show has a bad habit of going over the top with the yelling and action sequences. For Vinland Saga it's more cerebral and restrained (another thing I hate about AoT? Their shameless cliffhangers for every impending season). For sure this saga hasn't ended, and I'm not surprised by how this 'prologue' ended. It perfectly fits the overarching theme of warriors dying for their causes. Thors died for defending his fellow men. Askeladd's no different: he died for protecting his fellow Welsh people. Perhaps as karma for killing Thors, Askeladd had to see Floki (the original culprit) outlive him. But of course that wouldn't enrage him; it's the dishonor of being enslaved that did. One of the best shows of 2019. I thoroughly enjoyed it. |
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