Forum - View topicBest Team/Organization Tournament: Post-Mortem
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ccdx
 Posts: 312 |
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Updated brackets and Mini-game scores posted at: http://homepage.mac.com/unirizer/team/index.html
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18249 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 5 Groups A and B Finals is now closed.
Time to decide the first half of the Final Four. We have four serious competitors here, but somehow I think that only one of these matches (at most) is likely to be close. But hey, my prognostication ability hasn't been so hot lately, so what do I know? Group A Final Section 9, Ghost in the Shell franchise vs. Game Club, When They Cry/Higurashi no Naku Koroni franchise Winner: Section 9 Total: 19-5 Group B Final Straw Hat Pirates, One Piece vs. Gekkostate, Eureka 7 Winner: Straw Hat Pirates Total: 16-8 Last edited by Key on Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Skylark
 Posts: 827 Location: ORE NO TSHIRT |
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Group A Final
Section 9, Ghost in the Shell franchise vs. Game Club, When They Cry/Higurashi no Naku Koroni franchise Game Club - Going off my previous reasoning and the fact that I haven't really seen Ghost in the Shell, however I think their strong bonds and constant struggle against a seemingly unassailable opponent give them the upper hand. The strength of their overall victory is proportionate to the strength of that which they faced, and for a group of kids hanging out after school playing games to throw over a spoiler[paramilitary faction that they didn't know existed, nor did they know their goals or the fact that their own minds were being used against them over and over], win out here. I'll probably be in the minority here, however; and I don't really have the energy to argue my points against a legion of Section 9 supporters - since what I've heard about the group is quite strong I have a feeling that the Game Club won't put up much opposition regarding how Section 9 have steamrollered all competition so far, I think I would mostly be talking to myself anyways. The merits of the Game Club have been discussed to death at this point, and I think if someone isn't going to accept them as strong enough to beat Section 9 given what's already been said, they probably won't change their minds upon further discussion. Not to say Section 9 isn't a worthy team - I think they will probably win the competition to be honest. But I think the Game Club deserves to be stronger opposition to them than it probably will be. Group B Final Straw Hat Pirates, One Piece vs. Gekkostate, Eureka 7 Gekkostate - tough choice here, so I'm pretty much going with what I know. Individual character grievances and arrogance in the lead roles tend to bring down the collective achievement of the team so I think it won't take much to sway this vote, but I don't watch One Piece so I can't really be inclined to put them ahead. That, and because I recently rewatched the series, I do think I was being a bit harsh on Gekkostate in previous rounds - while they do struggle internally a bit, when it's go time they are very switched on and do their jobs with military precision. |
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3903 Location: New York state. |
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Gee, someone doesn't have much faith in me. And this is yet still my best tournament performance to date. 
Group A Final: Game Club Whatever argument has been made for the Game Club has been argued to death the past few rounds (especially in the past couple rounds) and I'm certain this is the biggest match they've faced at this point of the tourney so far. But in this match, I'll at least try to toss a wrench with one factor, and that is the fact the Game Club had to struggle in working up the support and resources throughout Higurashi's various arcs to overcome the repeating time loops and spoiler[the true baddie's goals for the town.] They come to strongly support one another and cooperate in aiding each other in dealing with their personal problems and the repeating time loops despite having limited information and resources to deal with the circumstances that were causing the town's predicament. As the video from Kai shows, they believe in each other strongly enough to the point where they are willing to risk their lives for one another and their efforts spoiler[encourage Hanyuu to join in their efforts in the next alternate Hinamizawa.] While Section 9 certainly is a strong, well-coordinated team, they have the necessary resources to gather information on the various criminals they have to apprehend while the Game Club isn't blessed with such as it took two entire seasons for the Game Club to have all they needed in putting an end to the time loops and spoiler[Takano's plans.] Group B Final: Straw Hat Pirates The easiest choice for me. Gekko State's arrogance in accepting Renton at the start of the series and the later episodes focusing only on the cooperation between a few select members hurt their chances against the strong unity and teamwork shown through the Straw Hats. |
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Generic #757858
 Posts: 1354 |
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No, not really. Sigh, this tournament just seems to filled with personal disappointments for me. There is clearly something wrong with your opinions, people! Oh well, at least I can do my best to make sure that Game Club won't advance another round. Group A Final Section 9, Ghost in the Shell franchise vs. Game Club, When They Cry/Higurashi no Naku Koroni franchise Section 9. Section 9's level of professionalism, effectiveness and coordination are nearly peerless, and unlike the likes of Hotel Moscow, they have welldefined characters and great group chemistry to match. Pit all that against a group of highschool kids, who take over a season to come together? No contest, even without my personal bias. Group B Final Straw Hat Pirates, One Piece vs. Gekkostate, Eureka 7 Straw Hat Pirates. The previous arguments in favour of Luffy's crew have convinced me of their worthiness. Gekkostate is a good team, but they are severely hampered by the fact that their leader takes over half the series to get his act together. This is especially evident in the episodes with Ray and Charles. It's never good sign when the 'bad guys' start seem like better people than you (though, of course that was intentional). |
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LydiaDianne
 Posts: 5633 Location: Southern California |
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Group A Final
Section 9, Ghost in the Shell franchise vs. Game Club, When They Cry/Higurashi no Naku Koroni franchise Section 9 - MUCH better organization any day of the week. The Game Club just fails when comapred to them. Group B Final Straw Hat Pirates, One Piece vs. Gekkostate, Eureka 7 Gekkostate because of previous arguments, I just think that they are the stronger team. |
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Kirikiri23
 Posts: 130 |
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I think this is really easy
Group A Final Section 9, Ghost in the Shell franchise vs. Game Club, When They Cry/Higurashi no Naku Koroni franchise Section 9- Probably the best military team I've seen in an anime Don't think I've ever seen them fail great leader and great organizational skills. Group B Final Straw Hat Pirates, One Piece vs. Gekkostate, Eureka 7[/quote] Straw Hat Pirates A team that keeps growing in number with a leader that cares about his team mates? and in has Sanji |
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RHachicho
 Posts: 897 Location: Essex, UK |
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Group A Final
Section 9, Ghost in the Shell franchise vs. Game Club, When They Cry/Higurashi no Naku Koroni franchise After much soul searching I eventually plonked for Game Club As although the GITS team definately has the better organisation they are all special op officers who are trained into that kind of thing. And there are some points in the story where their bonds seem quite shaky once they go beyond the realm of duty to their organisation. Also lets face it Makoto acts completely like a lone wolf when anyone tries to get close to her. Whereas the Game Club developed those bond's purely through being friends and working together and needed nothing else. This was THE most difficult to choose between though. But I chose game club because I felt for them the orginisation was something they developed as a justification for a close knit community that already existed. Whearas Section 9 where more thrown together by circumstance and forced to get along. Also the Game club's relative age I feel can compensate for some of the gap in organisational skills between Section 9 and GC. Group B Final Straw Hat Pirates, One Piece vs. Gekkostate, Eureka 7 Although personally I love Gekko State and totally hate the Straw Hat Pirates for me this was still an extremely close round. The degree of internal strife in Gekkostate can not be ignored but it is counterbalanced I feel by the Straw Hat Pirates relative lack of organisation or lasting achievement. As far as the debth of the bonds are concerned I feel Euraka7 has the lead as at the end of the series the entire team has gelled magnificently despire their various differences. However the fact that Renton is such a wet fish counted against Gekkostate. This was just too damn close so I am afraid I must shamefully admit to just picking the team I like best as I can simply find NO deciding factor as to what makes them a better team than each other. so i vote for Gekkostate. Damn you Damn you Damn you !!! this was tougher than Desperate Dan's beard stubble for me. They were both really hard rounds to decide. Other posters feel free to try and convince me to sway my votes as these are both subject to change if I hear a compelling argument. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18249 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Group A Final
Section 9, Ghost in the Shell franchise vs. Game Club, When They Cry/Higurashi no Naku Koroni franchise Game Club has such ardent supporters that I don't expect them to go down without a fight, but they are decisively outclassed here. I am done trying to make arguments against GC directly, since I've clearly been unable to convince anyone in the past two rounds, so I'll just posit this question: can you honestly choose a group that has, basically, one huge success built up to over the course of two season over a group that consistently and pervasively demonstrates highly-coordinated teamwork and mutual support throughout the course of two seasons, from the first episode to the last, including many big successes? And while Section 9 may not be one of the strongest teams in the tournament in terms of character development, they at least have some. The argument has been made that GC might have an advantage because they had to work to build up their resources to achieve their success, while Section 9 started with them. While that may be true, can you honestly say that Section 9 did not thoroughly exploit the resources they had and derive every possible advantage from them? That's what efficient teams do. Section 9 also proves themselves against a wide variety of challenges - in the physical realm, in the cyber realm, in espionage - while GC basically succeeds in one. (No, that's not really a fair argument, given the different natures of the settings, but that's never stopped anyone from using this kind of argument before.) EDIT:
Um, no, it doesn't. At this point in the tournament everything factors in. If a team is at an inherent disadvantage due to the nature of the series they come from, their age, or their period of time together, that's just too bad for them. (Example: people held up the lack of character development by Gatchaman as a prime reason for voting against them despite the fact that they came from a series made in an era when character development was virtually unknown, especially in youth-oriented anime series.) Group B Final Straw Hat Pirates, One Piece vs. Gekkostate, Eureka 7 A tougher pick, but not too hard. Gekkostate is a solid team but they aren't Final Four-worthy material. The Straw Hats Pirates much more give me the impression that they are. |
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RHachicho
Posts: 897 Location: Essex, UK |
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Hmm I did single out Gatchaman for their lack of development and true internal chemistry because this was something directly relevant to the team. I also did not feel that a team should get "extra credit" because the people who created it were not as good at this kind of stuff back then. However Section 9 and Game Club are members of a similar era of Anime. So I am trying to compare the team purely devoid of any special advantage given by training/situation/Moral inclination. I am trying to stick to what you are asking me for this tournament. However if you can explain to me in a way that I can understand why I should not give Game Club the credit for bing little kids as apposed to Highly trained cybernetically enhanced supersoldiers then I will gladly change my vote to Section 9 as despite any credit this was very close for me.
For example wouldn't it be rather strange for the Game Club to start using detailed tactical deployment's and situational weaponry?. This would be Alien to them also some of Section 9's members where ex military. It does seem a little unfair to me to penalise Game Club based on an attribute they could never have had I have not given them extra credit just for BEING kids. Merely acknowledged the fact that that's what they are. I chose them because I felt their team gelled marginally better than Section 9 and that's it. I have no personal preference as to who wins this round. At the moment however I still hold that Gatchaman is a lower quality team and this was so because the series was compared to the recent offerings poorly written. Admittedly I did not like Gatchaman but I do not feel that it influenced my decision. A cartoon (Non Anime) that I liked was transformers but had the Autobots been up for consideration I would have penalised them just as harshly. |
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rainbowcourage
 Posts: 1216 Location: what is commonly known as "hell week" |
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Group A Final
Section 9, Ghost in the Shell franchise vs. Game Club, When They Cry/Higurashi no Naku Koroni franchise I'll have to go with Section 9 this round (I haven't seen Higurashi but I've read the arguments and they fail to convince me), but this is the last I'll be voting for them. I prefer beating hearts to cold and ruthless efficiency. Group B Final Straw Hat Pirates, One Piece vs. Gekkostate, Eureka 7 Why are people knocking Holland for being a jerk for the first half of the series? Also, he's not just any jerk, he goes through multiple stages of jerkdom, depression, etc, and with reason (even if it's not the most mature). If anything, though, this should prove how much Gekkostate overcomes throughout the course of the series (I mean, look at Holland towards the end). The characters go through massive development and come out the other end with enough coordination to spoiler[save the freaking world.] So what if Renton isn't initially welcomed? I love love love watching the threads of their team come together over fifty episodes, knitting them into a tight group because of the internal and external challenges they face and overcome. And frankly, it's good that they stretched out the development over the series because solidifying a team in the first five episodes can lead to a boring series. In the face of that, the Straw Hat Pirates are a solid shounen team but much, much too static for my tastes. |
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Skylark
Posts: 827 Location: ORE NO TSHIRT |
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I think if people can complain about how the game club didn't come together properly as a team for the first season of higurashi (spoiler[which the did anyway as Rika put the pieces together after dying hundreds of times], but that aside), they can complain about Gekkostate being a broken team for half of a 50 episode season and about their spoiler[leader being an arrogant jerk, Renton running away because he felt he was hated by everyone there, etc]. But hey I still voted for them, just making a point.
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18249 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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But that's my point: why do that here when it hasn't consistently been done before in this tournament? The "special advantages" you mention are inherent in the identities of each team/organization. What are you trying to compare, then, if not the elements which make a team/org a strong team/org, regardless of whether or not they result from "unfair advantages?" Sure, you can go and say, "okay, if we look only at how the characters interact with each other, Team B gels a little better than team A, so I'm picking Team B because of that," but that would be ignoring all other factors which should play into whether or not it's actually the better team.
To use your own terminology, why give them "extra credit" for that? If you're trying to take the "they accomplish more with less" angle, I might buy that, except that they have some powerful inherent advantages of their own, such as spoiler[Rika's apparent ability to carry over knowledge between cycles and whatever this Hanyuu character can do].
No, you're pretty much trying to do exactly that. Being penalized for attributes they lack is all part of the evaluation process, after all. Whether it's fair or not is irrelevant. |
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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I think this should be explained spoiler[Hanyuu cannot do a lot, she can transfer Rika to another world, and use her God's voice (this ability is used in one of the episodes to frighten the Yamainu), but this is all she can do. Plus, her power is growing weaker with every transfer.] |
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Ggultra2764
Subscriber Posts: 3903 Location: New York state. |
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Adding to Aylinn's explanation: spoiler[Rika and Hanyuu's thoughts and senses are linked meaning whatever one of the girls feel or think, the other will feel it. Hanyuu's memories of the previous Hinamizawas are passed over to Rika which is how she knows of the events that came up in them. Much like Hanyuu's power, this connection weakens with each transfer which gets to the point where Hanyuu takes on a physical form and she and Rika no longer have their spiritual link. Because of this, Rika has no memories of the previous Hinamizawa in the final arc of Kai which Hanyuu has to refresh her memory on as a result.] |
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