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Forum - View topicThe 1-Up factor of FUNimation video releases.
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Tony K.
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 12083 Location: Frisco, TX |
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So I came across this article and got to thinking about the treatment of anime from the only real company willing to give it any kind of chance in the U.S. market.
The interview itself doesn't address squat, as the FUNi rep clearly avoids giving any real answers and more so replies through the form of statistics and other technical jargon for the processes themselves. And then Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood comes out, a title I'm really excited about and eager to check out. No, I've not been keeping up with either end of the broadcasts, but I've caught a couple of episodes via fansub (the first and 56th ones), and I have to say the series looks like it'll be a real winner. However, something in the aforementioned article that bugs me is this:
The specs for FA:B? English Dolby TrueHD 5.1 and Japanese Dolby TrueHD 2.0. Granted, the Japanese BD of FA:B only has 2-channel lossless audio as well. But like ADV used to do by constructing their own 5.1 dub tracks from scratch, it seems FUNi is now carrying that practice over in the same fashion. Am I the only one that finds this a little unfair? It's nice that they're claiming to make a better effort in accommodating for the JP language fans, but the mere fact that they can mix their own 5.1 dub tracks from scratch and open the sound field itself to a lot more fidelity feels like a slap in the face for the other side. I'll admit I actually enjoy a lot of the FA dubbing from what I remember in the first series, but I generally don't find a majority of FUNi dubs that great to begin with, so here we are with the predicament of integrity. Just because FUNi can mix a better sound field than what's available from Japan, does that give them the right to put it on their BDs, while inadvertently shafting JP fans? I personally can accept the fact that this is still an anime series and that lossless 2.0 is good enough and better than lossy 2.0. But the fact of the matter is that FUNi has 1-Up'ed the JP side by blatantly providing a "superior" track and leaving non-dub fans with an "not-as-superior" offering instead. I'd rather they just leave both tracks in lossless 2.0 and actually put some freakin' extra features on the discs instead. Is anybody else feeling the discrepancy? |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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I'm going to be a little blunt here, but FUNimation supports its dubs and rightfully so. After all, it's what they bank on to get consumers to buy both DVD and BD products. For them to put a little polish on their dubs is acceptable, given the price of the BD does include that very dub. If anime fans don't care for the dub, then they should vote with their wallet by buying something else and writing their objections to FUNimation. It'll be around 3-4 more years to go before my purchases are done in BD (by then, it'll probably be due to no choice when FUNi finally ditches the DVD). While there are a scant few titles in true HD, I just don't see the need to fork over cash for a series I already own. All I can say, Tony, is write FUNimation and let them know you don't approve. I doubt anything will be done, but if enough of you write in, maybe something will change. Like a future release of FMA:B: The Deluxe, Remastered, TrueHD, Colorscope, Techno-Mixed Version for $20 more than the version one already owns. |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Okay...I'll admit I'm not that up on the whole technical side of things. I may very well be misunderstanding what you're saying here. If I understand correctly though then it seems pretty ridiculous.
You're not suggesting that by creating a 5.1 English track, it directly takes away anything from sub fans. Sub fans are stuck with 2.0 no matter what. That's all that exists even in Japan. Nor are you suggesting that funimation should somehow be offering both an English 5.1 and a Japanese 5.1 track. You're saying that they should deliberately avoid creating a 5.1 English track, just purely because sub fans are stuck with 2.0? Why!? If sub fans are stuck with 2.0 that's unfortunate but if that's the case no matter what funimation does, why on earth should they deliberately dumb down the quality for dub fans? You're stuck with 2.0 (through no fault of funimations's) so we should be too? How does that make any sense? Funimation should strive to provide the highest quality audio to both sub and dub fans. If ultimately though, circumstances cause one group to receive better audio then you can hardly complain. Unless of course they've chosen to sacrifice one group for the sake of the other but again, that doesn't seem to be what you're saying here. It seems to me you ought to direct your complaints at the Japanese for not providing a 5.1 Japanese track. Don't blame funi though for providing the best product they can instead of deliberately dropping to lower standards and needlessly giving dub fans an inferior version all in pursuit of some strange notion of perceived fairness. I mean, you wouldn't suggest that Bandai should have deliberately made the dub of Cowboy Bebop worse just so it didn't surpass what sub fans got right? That seems like the same situation essentially. Last edited by ikillchicken on Wed May 26, 2010 6:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jmfsilenthill
 Posts: 1863 Location: Chinese cartoons are srs biz |
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From what I read at the AOD forums and around here, there is a definite group oof fans who feel the discrepancy. I'm not really an audophile, but I definitely hear the people who want lossless audio.
Maybe it's a licensing thing. Maybe Funimation is prohibited from having a TrueHD lossless track becuase of reverse-importation fears. |
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everydaygamer
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i don't get what people want? do they want funi to only do 2.0 for there dubs or go to the trouble of some how scaling up the japanese track to 5.1?
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Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 12083 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Done. Well, aside from the releases that include equalized versions for both tracks. I think the only FUNi titles I own on BD are Samurai 7 and Evangelion 1.11. I'm interested in getting Samurai Champloo, Ouran, and possibly Darker than Black and Mushi-shi when they come out. But as you all can see by this slight integrity issue, I'm kind of on the fence of whether or not support them.
But here's the thing. I'm assuming they received the original audio mix of the series and merely voiced over all the dialogue with English. Afterward, they took the audio master and re-displaced it in such a way that allowed for a 5.1 sound scape. If they can take the original Japanese sound master, dub it over, and re-distribute the sounds that were apparently only meant to be a 2-channel experience, why can't they do the same for the Japanese track? I'm no audio engineer, but if they can take a native 2.0 track and spruce it up to some kind of artificial 5.1 track with English dubbing, then it seems to me that somewhere down the line someone is not being completely honest.
Bebop got fair treatment on the Remix release, as did Trigun. Both language tracks got 5.1 upgrades, and I'm absolutely cool with the equalized treatment. It's the practice and question of whether or not these FUNi dubs are a result of taking the supposedly native 2.0 Japanese masters and manipulating them just enough to make the dubs better than the JP tracks. Now, if it turns out that FUNi is merely receiving audio masters for sound effects and music only and doing their own mixing in-house with English dubbing added, I can understand. But if they do, in fact, have the ability to manipulate both their own and the Japanese tracks, then it's unjust altogether that they'd put more work into their own stuff while completely brushing off the JP track and leaving it the way it is instead of making any alterations. Of course, all of this could've been better addressed in that interview linked above, but for whatever reason they're not stating all the facts and details like they should.
That's another possibility. But reverse-importation can be countered if the licensing company puts enough money into it. Sony and Miramax do this to hell for a lot of their foreign movies.
That's part of my inquiry to ikillchicken, if FUNi is indeed taking native 2.0 tracks and "upscaling" the English sound scape to 5.1, then they can just as well do the same for the JP one, couldn't they? On the other hand, if it's a case of the parent JP company giving FUNi 2 sets of audio masters (a lossless JP 2.0 to put on the discs, and then another set of sound effects and music for them to dub over and mix as they please), then there's nothing anyone can really do about it, and I'm fine with that. I'm just asking FUNi to be fair if they have the ability to do so and to set me straight with a definitive answer to these questions. |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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I know how you feel. I was once excited for BD, drooling at all the news of its progress. Then, it's finally released and I've been disappointed since. My solution is to abstain from purchasing any BD title until the point's reached where I've no choice. I can only offer a pat on the shoulder, because ultimately, it comes down between your desire for the content vs. the annoyances of the product. Tough call indeed. |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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This is analogous to my experiences with ADV's recent release of SDF Macross. In such a case however, legal red tape prevented all but the oldest of audio masters from accompanying an English-language dub of greater fidelity. Still, it is disheartening when a dissimilarity in audio quality is to the benefit of one preference over another. |
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braves
 Posts: 2309 Location: Puerto Rico (but living in Texas) |
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If I'm not mistaken, though, hasn't this 5.1 (ENG)/2.0 (JP) been the norm for a very long time? Not that I prefer it that way, but considering the circumstances, I'm glad that we've been able to upgrade from lossy to lossless for the JP track at least. |
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hissatsu01
 Posts: 963 Location: NYC |
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Not me. I have no expectation that Funimation provide a JP track that is "better" than the one provided on the Japanese release. (In fact I'd rather they didn't.) After much complaining, they've finally moved to providing lossless audio for both tracks, and that's all I've expected from them. As far as I'm concerned a 5.1 Japanese track is the responsibility of the Japanese to provide.
Funimation IS providing lossless Japanese audio for new and future releases, but they aren't remixing Japanese audio to 5.1 from 2.0. There was never any licensing restriction against them using lossless audio for 2.0 tracks, they just didn't do it in the past for whatever reason, while they've always provided lossless audio for 5.1 tracks. |
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Annf
Posts: 578 |
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Can't say I'm too interested in half-assed 5.1 remixes constructed out of stereo masters, no.
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Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 12083 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Oh, I'm not talking about audio options, just the ability to import and a few other little tweaks. For instance, back when Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon came out, a friend of mine had bought the HK region-free DVD. But as soon as the movie came over, you couldn't import the HK version from overseas anymore. Some more recent examples from Miramax are in their "martial arts box set" with Iron Monkey, Drunken Master 2, Zatoichi, and Hero. Not only is it restricted to import a few of those titles from certain sites, but then the U.S. Blu-rays suffered a similar case of the audio discrepancy seen here with FUNi. Each of these movies (outside of Drunken Master since it's English only) got lossless dub options, while the original Chinese/Japanese tracks only received lossy tracks. I don't know what kind of treatment these movies are getting in their respective countries. But given that Miramax has a shitload of money under bad management, this only dampens their image to me even more, though, Miramax is another story for another thread. Anyway, the point I was trying to allude to through these two companies is the fact that they've managed to block out and control distribution where they feel they need to and that it's working pretty darn well in the States, at least. If it's not too difficult, maybe FUNi could try the same.
Yes. It's been that way for a while. But if the scenario is what I think it is and lossless 2.0 is as much as we can get for certain titles, then so be it. I won't hold anything against FUNi for at least getting us that much. But if they're not even trying from this point and there's just one little slip-up somewhere down the line, then may karma rip the ones responsible a new one.
I don't expect them to upgrade JP tracks compared to the original product either unless they can somehow make a deal that guarantees a legitimate increase in efficiency for both sides, but that's probably too much trouble. If the best they can do is match what's available from the source, I will accept that 100%. I'm just curious to know the technicalities of how they're doing these lossless 5.1 tracks. Are they upscales from a native source, or do the Japanese just give them the materials to make their own sounds mixes from scratch? If that's the case, then there's nothing anyone can do about it. I just want some closure on this. |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Oh okay. I get what you're saying now. That being the case...I could go either way. I think it would be nice if they upgraded both to treat the fans equally. Then again, it seems a bit above and beyond since they're improving on something that already exists so I don't necessarily think it's required. It's possible that constructing a 5.1 track for the English is easier because they're re doing the voice work. Maybe that makes is less work to remix. (I'm just throwing that out there, I really don't know). |
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