Forum - View topicMagical Girls as a genre?
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15921 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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This is partially out of the fact that a course I am doing is having me use online sources like social networking sites to research a topic, but this is also something that interests me personally. Looking at Wikipedia Magical Girl is refered as a sub-genre, and then looking on ANN we have the encyclopedia listing Magical Girls as a theme, and many of the Magical Girl on Wikipedia do not have it as a theme here. It has me wondering what really is a Magical Girl anime.
Now if you look at the Wikipedia link I put above you might notice some interesting choices like even the current airing Kill la Kill is classified as a magical girl show. Well it does have transformation scenes, but before now I never considered it one. Similarly there is also other shows like Penguindrum. There are others that I do think fit in despite not having the theme on this site, like Vividred Operation, Symphogear, and perhaps Neptunia. And I have even seen somewhere that some consider Black Rock Shooter as a Magical Girl. I do wonder what exactly it is that makes something one, as it seems to be a little hard to place. I see My-HiME referred as one and indeed seems to have many of the themes, but still a little different from typical examples. And then there is Is This a Zombie?, which is pretty strong in the sort of themes, but breaks the number one rule of it needing a female protagonist, and those who have watched it have an idea how that works. Wondering what you guys thing? |
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Animegomaniac
Posts: 4287 |
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There's the core material which is present in actual shows made for girls; Elementary to middle school age girl, presented power by animal mascot to fight a kind of evil. There's always a transformation scene and usually there's a royal aspect to her being chosen or a reincarnation aspect to her being chosen. "You are special not because you are you but because you are more than you think. With my help, of course. Without me, you're nothing!" I'm not sure if that was the intended message but that's what I get from what I've seen.
Then the otakus got their hands on it. And you know just where those hands have been... One positive about that is it widened the scope for what the "magical girl" can be, usually starting along the lines of "you're pretty amazing to start with and now look at you with magical power; There's nothing that can stop you." such as Nanoha or the show can invert the theme and have a slew of magical girls where she's just another convert and her "specialness" comes out as the series progresses. Madoka comes to mind there. My-Hime plays with both of them, the "power" version and "savior" type I guess they are. Despite of all her problems, Mai's a much stronger individual before becoming one of the Hime while Makoto's true strength doesn't really become apparent until she finally fully comes to her Hime powers and becomes... Well. In its strictest sense, My Hime is more of a subversion/deconstruction of the genre than Madoka is and there's a really obvious reason for it; "Evil" or in a less label intensive version, "Chaos", doesn't exist in the My-Hime universe to be fought by the Girls, it's there spoiler[to be brought by the girls as they fight each other]. Their weapons are their animal mascots spoiler[which they have to kill, absolutely deleting their "magical girl" status] and the one supplying the mentoring and wisdom, Nagi, turns out to be.... Stolen by the Madoka series? Plus, the fact that the Hime girls are performing for spoiler[the pleasure of a single male audience member], gives the work a rather metafictional feel as the action is rated on how much tears were shed, not blood. The more miserable everyone gets, the more the audience likes it. And you're using Wikipedia as gauge for determining what? One person's "popular opinion" of what constitutes a magical girl show rather than fighting shows with transformations {different} or shows that happen to have magical girls as a character type than be just about them? Wait a minute... Ah, irony. |
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15921 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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Well I am trying to find out what opinions there are. I do have my own observations. *looks through notes* Princess Knight (1953) seems to be the oldest possible influence, followed by Himitsu no Akko-chan (1962 manga, 1969 anime) was a normal girl with powers and Sally the Witch (1966) was inspired by Bewitched. Transformations popped up from Cutey Honey (1973), but were mostly full body transformations where they might grew older, until Sailor Moon made it a standard in 1992 where it was mostly clothes. Animal sidekicks came from Minky Momo (1982), which showed that a studio other than Toei Animation. And Nanoha (2002) opened the floodgate for magical girl shows aimed at male audiences. There seems to be some opinion that Magical Girl are like fairy tales for the female audiences, and actually being a somewhat metaphor for puberty, which is why characters changing age when transforming may have been relevant. But the more mature choices and ones made for guys are something to look at, not to mention that Madoka might really be changing the way things can go. |
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FenixFiesta
Posts: 2581 |
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@OP, you are simply thinking too hard on the concept.
Magical Girl trends are just as fluid and a reflection of the times as say shonen action series or mecha focused series, there is also the nature that you are overlooking non traditional "magical girl" concepts that prominently feature supernaturally powered female protagonists and are just as potentially influential on future trends in the Magical Girl genre such as the Fate series. Hell the Hatsune Miku fandom through a course of events inspired the creation of Black Rock Shooter which is slightly different take on the Modern Magical girl. Mecha Musume was not always so prominent, yet now it is bleeding into Magical Girl series with the Strike Witches girls or Origami Tobiichi in Date A Live and potentially might become indistinguishable from the usual Magical Girl series if more works feature girls that transform with artillery in place of magical wands. You are also overlooking the Magical singing idols such as the ice skating girls of the Pretty Rhythm series, while the advent of combat magical girls has created a noticeable market share there still do exist overly girly girl shows where a series simply has girls having magic or in series overly high tech gear that gives them the power to be idols. |
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Animegomaniac
Posts: 4287 |
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I listed the age range because I don't think it's a metaphor as it's part of the name; The high school girls of My Hime are all implied virgins, the middle school girls are known virgins and the adults are a nun, a woman-child pining for a father figure and whatever maid Fumi is. My Otome went one step beyond and made the power virgin based so there's no question about any of them: If they have the power then they're not only Maidens, they're still Girls. There's the My Otome scene about Tomoe, Shizuru and a baby bottle that tends to get misrepresented as a sexual fetish but I'd think it involves the larger issue of what "magical girls" aren't known for: Becoming "magical mothers". Madoka goes as far as removing the question entirely which I feel makes the series less progressive than people want but even the series that came closest, Sailor Moon, did it in a way that the two ended up as sisters. What Nanoha did was skirt the issue by changing the question from "puberty" straight to "family" without all that messy biology. And with that example, if the girls aren't "romantically chaste" then they're in relationships with other girls, usually implied at that. Seeing how common this is in series written by men for men, there's more than just "unfortunate implications" in it, something in which Madoka is buried deep. Look at what happened: spoiler[After a discussion with her mother, Madoka made a series of rejections, from becoming a mother herself right on down to existing in the first place. And unlike any other character in the series, she did so in full knowledge of the price she had to pay.] Did she have any other choice? Yes but she didn't have any other hope; She could only see what was in front of her, she couldn't imagine an actual real future where she wasn't merely a young girl. That was always my biggest question mark of the series: spoiler[With such potential behind her wish, she could have changed the system to favor the change of girls to magical girls > women rather than eliminating the magical girls to witches change.] It would have been amusing since I'd imagine the entropy dissipation system would have become the Magical Girl menstrual cycle. Now that would have been progressive. Still, written by men for men and some subjects are just taboo. |
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EricJ2
 Posts: 4016 |
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Third and fourth-grade Japanese girls weren't into fighting or space, so magical powers were the only fictionally empowering element, to help people and get over that crush on the cute boy next door. Magical Witch Sally was probably one of the very first magical girl wands ever, and the accent wasn't on magical instant-puberty changes into the opportunity of the adult world, but on doing just about everything else to make good things happen around town. Looking back at the very, very first episodes of Sailor Moon Classic, it's very much a little-kid series compared to what it later became in R, S and the Movies, and the cuteness in Card Captor Sakura is more genuinely aimed at the age group, than artificially heightened for, um, other viewers. (Although it also became one of the more addictive "crossover" series, even for non-horny Westerners, just on the strength of its characters, action scenes, and stylized design.)
We've come so far from the 80's and early 90's, we've forgotten that most magical girls shows really DID start out for girls, and not for horny male teens (which, after Madoka, we now automatically think out of social default). The market's so niched itself toward satisfying what they believe is the moe-drooling "pedophilic" otaku, with serious story arcs, stylized action scenes and constant near-softcore relationship talk between the girls, there's very little for actual 8-12 girls to watch, which is why Pretty Cure keeps developing such a running fandom, for lack of anything cuter. |
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Touma
 Posts: 2651 Location: Colorado, USA |
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@DuskyPredator
I am curious about what your goal is. Do you just want to know how many different opinions you can get? Or do you intend to make a list that could be used to categorize shows? Whatever you are doing I would be interested in your results. And I am glad that you have the job, and not me. 
"Magical girl" is one of those terms that we frequently use here that has no standard definition. "Magical girl" does not have a real definition because magical girls are not real (yes, I know that this is very obvious ).
Magical girls are fictional characters that are created by different people at different times for different reasons and for different audiences. So there are going to be extreme variations. For me one of the distinguishing characteristics is the difference between a magical girl and a magic user. A magical girl does not have any magic power herself and needs some magical object, quite often a piece of jewelry, to give her the power. A magic user has power naturally. She might use an object, such as a witch's wand, to focus or amplify her power, but the power is part of her. Cardcaptor Sakura is often called a magical girl show, but to me it is not. Sakura is a magic user. The wand and the cards allow her to use her power, but the power is in her. I think that the girls in My HiME are magic users and not magical girls. They did not get their powers at Fuka Academy. They were brought there because they had the power, even if they did not know it. Of course, and unfortunately, there is often not a clear distinction made. Even in Sailor Moon I am not sure if the girls get ther power from the transformation wands or if they already had the latent power because they were reincarnations of the previous sailor senshi. The difference also is not clear to me in Wedding Peach or Tokyo Mew Mew ( but for a different reason in TMM). |
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15921 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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I took on some difficult job?!
Well I largely want to create some discussion, and I am interested in what common thoughts we can get from fans of anime for various amounts of time. Is it just a theme?
Now this is interesting as some information I found pointed out that there are two type of magical girls. Type 1: Had the power already and like was a witch or angel and living in normal world. This goes back all the way to Sally. Type 2: A normal female protagonist who is given the powers of a magical girl or has the powers already. proficient example is Sailor Moon. I think a good parody of the first type that seems rather rare would be Punie-chan, which now that I think about it really blurred the lines with straight up action girl. And the idea of them having inherent powers really goes back further than the magic jewels that are so big now. |
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ChibiKangaroo
 Posts: 2941 |
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I don't agree that a magical girl is not an inherent magic user. I don't feel that the word "magical" in the phrase is meant to indicate magical power is bestowed upon the girl. I think it is more just indicating that the protagonist of the story will be experiencing a large number of magical occurrences specific to her as she struggles through challenges that come up in the plot. Usually, those magical occurrences involve transformations and gaining of additional magic power. Those are the primary hallmarks of the genre I think.
(1) Female protagonist who either uses magic or has lots of magical things happening to her that are specific to her (2) Transformations (3) Female protagonist gains more magic over the course of the plot (4) Some fantasy-type evil organization or demonic enemies are trying to kill, stop, or somehow control the female protagonist (5) Often (not always) there is some kind of royal or messianic role for the female protagonist If a show has those features and appears to take some cues or inspiration from a Sailor Moon type classic, then I would call it a magical girl show. |
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Touma
Posts: 2651 Location: Colorado, USA |
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Type 1 is what I call a magic user, but by doing it this way you can call them all magical girls. Personally I would rather separate the magic users and not consider them at all when talking about magical girls, which would keep the list shorter, but as I said the distinction is not always clear. However, I do not understand the difference between a Type 1 and a Type 2 who has the powers already. Or are you saying that it is not clear if the Type 2 had the power previously? Which is how I feel about Sailor Moon. |
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DuskyPredator
Posts: 15921 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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I think it was meant to like they were given it or they had their potential unlocked but were normal to begin with, while type 1 was that they may have come from a magical world. Which as I mentioned was the case of Sally that was inspired by Bewitched, and parodied by Punie-chan. But I guess there are some problems with the idea, like I am not sure where Day Break Illusion would fit in as she essentially was normal but her powers came from coming of age. Which might work in with other Magical girl themes. Another thing I did not mention is that I think that the whole magical girl thing also works parallel to Super Sentai, although with opposite gender targeting, and differing as a live action genre. You could also note that transforming is a big part of Super Sentai, and as I saw Toei Animation having a big history with Magical girls, maybe coincidentally the Toei Company is also a big player with Super Sentai. We did see the two crossing paths a little in Samurai Flamenco. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 19175 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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DuskyPredator's wording in those two types could be clearer, but he's essentially right. In his terms a Type 1 is someone who was always actively magical, while a Type 2 is someone who either never previously had powers or her powers were dormant. (Frankly, I'd break Type 2 into two different types, one for the "never had powers" and one for "powers were there but dormant to the point that she never knew about them." Admittedly, though, it can sometimes be hard to tell the difference between the two.)
I think the other factors that are missing here in the definition of magical are that magical girls traditionally have a powerful "cute" factor involved and their powers are commonly (though not necessarily always!) connected to their emotions, especially love. Madoka Magica plays on that directly by making girls on the cusp of puberty ideal candidates for magical girls because of the powerful emotions that they have in flux and then twists that by showing that spoiler[negative emotions - especially despair - becoming predominant is a key aspect of the corruption of magical girls, and thus in turning them into witches]. My-Hime, which I agree is a magical girl deconstruction, also plays with this by connecting being a Hime to putting one's most beloved person at risk. As for magical girls being associated with virginity, I always did find how My-Otome made that both literal and a plot point on multiple occasions - and even came up with a wonky justification for it (the power-granting nanomachines are incompatible with male DNA being present in the Otome's body) - to be one of the most interesting aspects of the series. The concept of "good guy" magical or spiritual power being associated with virginity is hardly peculiar to anime or Japanese culture in general, though, and I think yuri relationships between magical girls is just a natural progression of that as some (not all!) magical girl titles become otaku fare. On the other side of the coin, gaining evil magical power was often associated with not remaining pure - in particular, having sex with the Devil or another underworld being in European witch persecutions. Anime very rarely goes there (in fact, I'm trying to think of one that does) because it likes to see fallen magical girls as redeemable when it does use them at all, but it might be an interesting variation. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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Although it wasn't explicitly sex, about the closest thing I can think of to this that I have seen recently (outside of like hentai) is the scene in DayBreak Illusion where the evil demon guyspoiler[ plunges his "evil" card into Luna (who is the most innocent/pure seeming of the girls in that show) and turns her evil. Originally it is a sword/dagger, but it changes into a card as it is going into her. I thought it was an unusually erotic scene, as she moans quite a bit and her boobs like suddenly get big and practically burst out of her clothes, and she transforms into some more mature, seductive evil beast version of herself.] Also, it happens right as the bad guy was drawing out all of her "pure" "yuri" (to use the comparison Theron was making) feelings for spoiler[Akari (the main protagonist) and then he crushes them by making her believe Akari doesn't care about her.] I was quite surprised by the intensity of the scene and I am not sure I have seen another one like it before, even in other shows where a magical girl goes bad. |
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FenixFiesta
Posts: 2581 |
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You are missing the part that the narrative and not the lore behind the power is much more key in any given super power setting. Type 1: would be if the characters simply use there power to make there lives interesting or less inconvenient often mixed with comedy bits in a slice of life setting. Type 2: Magical Girls Warriors where conflict is the key focus and the story lends itself to a battle series at intervals. Where characters get there power (usually) isn't as integral in defining the setting. |
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Touma
Posts: 2651 Location: Colorado, USA |
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After thinking about this a bit more it seems to me that all that is necessary to have a magical girl is to put magic together with a girl. If you assume that a magical girl anime is an anime with a magical girl then there is really not much else to say about what makes a magical girl anime. You could talk about other things that are necessary, but you would inevitably have shows with magical girls that are not magical girl shows. It seems to me that by using those two types the only thing open for debate would be the definition of "magic." Or, I guess that you could break "magical girl" into different categories That might be more in line with what you were talking about originally. |
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