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ANNCast - BERSERK vs. BERSERK vs. BERSERK


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angelmcazares
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:26 am Reply with quote
I have never watched Berserk, but I have no interest based on hearing very bad things about the second and third anime. I appreciate your commitment to keep doing this podcast, but Berserk to me is a bad choice. For the next show discussion I hope you can do Dororo, Hyouka or Banana Fish.
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Weird Guy



Joined: 24 Jan 2018
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:35 am Reply with quote
well after reading this post I came in the conclusion that Griffith did nothing wrong
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Greed1914



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:00 am Reply with quote
Berserk is compelling enough that I've watched the tv series (all of them), read the manga, watched the movies, and played the recent game and still wasn't tired of the story. That said, I also put some space between those things, so I can see where cramming them together would be a bit much.

I ended up starting the manga because of where the first tv series ended. I'm no stranger to anime that stop somewhere partway, and I usually leave it at that, but there was no way I could leave a story on that particular note. It's not like it's a secret what lies beneath the surface of Berserk's world, but the Eclipse felt like such an upheaval that it was like the story just got started at that point. That said, I do wish I had known about the gaps in Miura's production since I might not have blown through what was available at the time if I had known that I'd be down to hoping there is one new volume in a year.
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Animehermit



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:12 am Reply with quote
It feels like the 2016 series takes the same basic plot outlines that the manga does and then does them in literally the worst way possible.

It also seems like Muira is done with the very dark and grimdark edgy stuff for the most part, the manga hasn't been as dark in a good while.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:13 am Reply with quote
Greed1914 wrote:

I ended up starting the manga because of where the first tv series ended. I'm no stranger to anime that stop somewhere partway, and I usually leave it at that, but there was no way I could leave a story on that particular note. It's not like it's a secret what lies beneath the surface of Berserk's world, but the Eclipse felt like such an upheaval that it was like the story just got started at that point. That said, I do wish I had known about the gaps in Miura's production since I might not have blown through what was available at the time if I had known that I'd be down to hoping there is one new volume in a year.

Honestly, I had the opposite reaction to the series. I loved watching through the 1997 Golden Age adaptation, with its fantastic portrayal of medieval politics tinged with some dark supernatural elements, but then the Eclipse happened and I said to myself, "...you know what, I think I'm good." I know Miura's storytelling and artwork are spectacular, but one blood orgy was enough for me.
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db999



Joined: 23 Dec 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:25 pm Reply with quote
I really enjoyed this episode and the discussion on the series. Berserk is kind of a weird series for me since my entire experience with the show is limited to the English Dub bloopers for the 1997 series which are hilarious and I've watched many times. I've never read the manga or watched any of the anime, but it's one of those series that I'm very intrigued by and want to know how the story ends. I do know what's currently happening in the manga and spoilers below spoiler[they have finally made it to the forest. Where the story is now is that Casca has her memories back, but she's so traumatized by what she experienced during the eclipse that whenever she's reminded of her past or sees Guts she goes into a panic attack. It looks like the story will now focus on Casca dealing with the trauma of what happened to her, which sounds way more interesting than what was described of the story after the eclipse in the CG show.]

As someone who also loved Game of Thrones, the books more-so than the TV show, this seems like a show that I'd like. If someone else has read both does that seem like that would be the case, because I might actually be interested in watching the 1997 show.
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Themaster20000



Joined: 05 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:26 pm Reply with quote
I've avoided the movies for the same reason,and just recently watched them. The films are fine despite them stripping a lot of complexities of the characters ( Casca suffers theost). I found the direction in the original show just way better and nuanced. Contrast the Griffith's rape of Casca in the 90's series to the movie. It's done so much more effectively,where in the movie, I get the idea the director is just getting off to this. The one scene done better was the duel,which was done masterfully in the movie.

I enjoy Berserk overall,even after the Golden Age,but it's hard to deny that it's spinning it's wheels.
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jroa



Joined: 08 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:43 pm Reply with quote
Themaster20000 wrote:
I found the direction in the original show just way better and nuanced. Contrast the Griffith's rape of Casca in the 90's series to the movie. It's done so much more effectively,where in the movie, I get the idea the director is just getting off to this. The one scene done better was the duel,which was done masterfully in the movie.


Blame Miura, because his original depiction of the rape scene is closer to the movie version.
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TeamRamrod



Joined: 31 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:55 pm Reply with quote
Does anyone else think Miura has just been spinning his wheels for 20+ years like Zac does? I’ve never once thought that or that The Eclipse was the culmination of his story thematically I was surprised to hear Zac say that.
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MarshalBanana



Joined: 31 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:53 pm Reply with quote
Between the OLM version and CG one, OLMs version is clearly better, but it s a hollow victory given how bad the CG one is. Which is a shame as the source material for those later arcs I feel is better than the Golden Age arc.

Yet despite the good aspects of OLMs berserk, Kobayashis art and the OST, you can never escape the fact that the show is ultimately a slidehsow, with very little actual animation relying heavily on shortcuts..
Animehermit wrote:
It also seems like Muira is done with the very dark and grimdark edgy stuff for the most part, the manga hasn't been as dark in a good while.
The Golden Age is not grimdark for the most part, it's more low fantasy. Then it's dark fantasy, and yes more recently it is high fantasy. So it could always change again to a different style once they leave that fairy place, possibly going back to a darker theme, as Griffiths paradise shows it's darker side.
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dishonoredbr



Joined: 01 Apr 2020
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:49 pm Reply with quote
I don't blame them to hating the 2016/17's anime but i really dislike how they dislike Casca being reduce to a baby state but then don't seems to care to mentioned how this changes Guts , how they just skip over Farnese entire devemploment arc (another great female character ) and just mentione that one scene of her... Also i really dislike they say how the newer season have nothing to say but skip over Guts and Farnese character arcs , entire Egg Apostle story, how the arc is about finding hope and meaning even in middle of literaly hell etc. There's quite a lot to talk if you go past ''Haha so edge for the sake of being edge'' that you two have done in this cast.

Of course , part of the message of this arc is lost due not having Lost Children Arc and Blackswordman. And not gonna even comment on the next arc because you guys barely mentioned.. Not a very good review imo and was kinda pointless but whatever..
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:39 pm Reply with quote
MarshalBanana wrote:

Yet despite the good aspects of OLMs berserk, Kobayashis art and the OST, you can never escape the fact that the show is ultimately a slidehsow, with very little actual animation relying heavily on shortcuts.

I always see people sling this at the '97 adaptation and my reaction is always the same: "So what?" Yes, that adaptation was decidedly low-budget for the phenomenally-detailed series it was adapting, but it also had a supremely-talented creative staff that worked within those limitations to produce a compelling work. Great direction and storyboarding go a long way toward overcoming financial limitations, and the '97 adaptation had those in spades.
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One-Eye



Joined: 08 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:35 am Reply with quote
I agree with much, but not all of what Zac and Lynzee had to say about Berserk on the podcast. I sort of got fatigued with the grimdark elements awhile back and at a certain point I think I counted in the manga 8 rape/attempted rapes/threatened rape (?) of Casca alone which by that time I had had enough.

However, I still like and think the 97 series is the best. Ambition, friendship, betrayal, cruelty and revenge are all mixed into a shocking blend. It saves the supernatural elements for a few key moments that really hit with impact. Griffith maybe a secret scoundrel but he is seduced when he is at his lowest and everything he might have had an attachment to is taken away so it almost makes him sympathetic...for a moment (something George Lucas could have learned from). The show felt like low fantasy, but a hidden world of horror just beneath the surface. I do think Miura watched too much Hellraiser before drawing the Godhand though.

The 2012 movies skipped details which helped cement Griffith and Gut's relationship and I disagree with Zac and Lynzee in that I think the subtext was much stronger in the 97 show and added to the sense of betrayal by both parties. Overall, the movies felt more watered down than the show and at the time I didn't like some of the CGI or the bleaching of Casca's skin tone (ambiguously brown now?). However, I'm a little more forgiving now after having to suffer thru the ugly 2016 show the less said about that the better.

I would probably recommend someone to watch the 97 series up to maybe last 2 episodes and then watch the final movie of the 2012 movies. Mainly because I've had friends watch the 97 series and they came away feeling that it was kind of daring to end it as it was, but were a little confused as to how it related to the first episode of the show or they felt it was too abrupt of an ending and were also confused. Showing them the last movie seemed to alleviate some of that and also explaining that the anime is really an advertisement for the manga. Buy manga see where it goes from here!
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MarshalBanana



Joined: 31 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:40 am Reply with quote
Top Gun wrote:
MarshalBanana wrote:

Yet despite the good aspects of OLMs berserk, Kobayashis art and the OST, you can never escape the fact that the show is ultimately a slidehsow, with very little actual animation relying heavily on shortcuts.

I always see people sling this at the '97 adaptation and my reaction is always the same: "So what?" Yes, that adaptation was decidedly low-budget for the phenomenally-detailed series it was adapting, but it also had a supremely-talented creative staff that worked within those limitations to produce a compelling work. Great direction and storyboarding go a long way toward overcoming financial limitations, and the '97 adaptation had those in spades.
I still did sing it's praises, I enjoyed scenes of the characters talking where the limitations do not matter(for the most part) as the music and art creates a nice atmosphere and the surprisingly for the most part good dub(I'm sure the sub is good as well) lead the way.

As for your question, if your take away from the show was that it had great direction and storyboarding that overcame the budget restraints and mine was it had too many shortcuts that ruin the action scenes and a decent chunk of the none action scenes, we will have to just agree to disagree. Because the show has already shown you my issues with the animation,
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zyd



Joined: 29 Apr 2015
Posts: 5
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:04 am Reply with quote
So I've been listening to this podcast and I cant help but feel your missing the nature of berserks story.

Some context from my view, I saw the 97 anime then read the entire manga and still an uptodate reader. I've re read the story multiple times and found greater depth on each reading. I'm also somebody who's been through ptsd and traumatic stuff and therapy and depression ect.

The story of berserk in the anime is pretty different to the manga. There's a lot of deeper narrative missed out on and stories that fit into the continuity that are ignored. For example you said that there is an attempt to redeem guts, that never happens in the manga, we have arcs of him suffering and just giving into his rage and despair. The whole story i got from guts was that me is an angry little monster waiting to die as he grows up, but forcefully joining the hawks he dins a family and learns to love and trust. Griffith and casca betray him, in the sense she claims to love him but won't leave griffiths side, and the eclipse returns him to his original state if not worse.

There are arks the anime misses out on altogether which would show you how far he sinks in the manga. He kills a group of apostles that are just corrupted children for example and practically relishes in their slaughter, he's broken and evil is the point i got from it.

As the story goes on he ends up making new allies against his wishes and wants. He's forced to re open up to people and as a result starts to heal and want to go back to who he was with the hawks. He's a shitty person and he's beyond redemption is something that he seems to acknowledge but also that he's a product of his environment. Alongside that its made really clear, at least to me, that all the characters who join him along the way are mentally damaged or traumatised likewise. They are that way they are because of their environment and honestly given the setting of the story it doesn't feel out of place.

There is a kind of redemption ark when they start to heal Cascas mental state, but he's denied redemption as Cascas lasting traumas makes her unable to be around him, just the sight of him brings her trauma flooding over her. I get people find cascas mental babyfication uncomfortable, but its not unheard of for trauma victims to go through something similar. In that sense I found that approach to traumatic events very compelling, relatable and refreshing.

With having been through traumatic events in my life, definingly so. I find berserk to be an amazing story with alot to take from it. Mosty that life is and will be hell, but don't stop pushing, keep trying to survive because one day you may find your hawks and if that goes tits ups don't worry you'll find somebody else too.

That said the whole shirke has a crush on guts thing is a little creepy to me.
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