Forum

In this post I would respectfully request the ANN Team and any users whom this request concerns to please sincerely consider my arguments.
It is my wish that the word "trap" in the context of characters appearing as the opposite sex no longer be listed as a violation of forum rules and etiquette as long as its not being used to insult someone (real or fictional). Additionally this will permit both staff and users to talk about series or discuss topics relevant to traps without judgment or scrutiny from those still set on avoiding or demonizing traps.

I will present several reasons for this request:
1) The authors who create manga featuring or about otokonoko (the Japanese language equivalent of trap, literally meaning daughter boy) do NOT make these works to intentionally disrespect LGBTQ sensibilities. It seems a large proportion of users who complain about traps and the context its sometimes used is because it undermines what being trans is about. But these stories are a fantasy situation for the characters who usually make no claim about whether they are necessarily trans or not. I feel it is extremely presumptuous to say a feminine looking boy who dresses as a female is definitely trans, so the story MUST deal with his alternate gender expression in a realistic way that explores the problems and reality that transgender people face. NO, it is ridiculous for anyone in their right mind to place such demands and limitations on artistic expression, or have the authority to do so. In fact, I feel manga about traps becoming increasingly popular is testament to the acceptance of fluidity in gender expression and helps readers open their minds and move beyond heteronormative attitudes or the strict gender binary mindset.

2) Let me remind you manga authors are Japanese, creating content for the Japanese market, so is it even our place as native speakers of languages besides Japanese and as Westerners, where we have begun to take our victories with LGBTQ acceptance around the world for granted, and impose that on much more ultraconservative nations such as Japan without consideration of their culture and history? I mean think about it this way, let's say a lesbian and her partner from New York were kissing in a park in Tokyo. First of all intimacy in public is frowned upon. So as they say, 'when in Rome, do as the Romans do.' Sometimes it's not the time to use your normal behavior as a form sociopolitical activism, and just show respect and restraint as a visitor in a foreign nation.

3) I thought if there is something personally offensive to you being discussed in a thread, it can be easily resolved by simply avoiding that thread. When has ANN become so kowtowing to every person who happens to be offended by something? Anime and manga includes adult content, hentai and is appreciated as a platform for expression of very colorful and alternative lifestyles, fantasies and romantic situations. I feel that traps are being specifically targeted and erased from existence when things like incest, underage eroticism, and various forms of violence sexual or otherwise get a free pass. We resist excess censorship of things perhaps seen as immoral by the general public because it's expression with artistic and cultural value. Why demonize traps in particular?

4) Yes some ANN staff members are LGBTQ identifying. But honestly, I don't understand some of the reasoning that has been put forth. I was there when it first happened, I mean I participated in one of those early threads years ago when a staff person was offended and made their opinion of traps clear, and I get that many others are offended but it kind of had that herd mentality vibe. I will address some of the complaints that both cisgender and transgender forum members have about traps in future posts. I think some misconceptions and misunderstandings in viewpoints exist and I will be happy to address those and try to clear them up from my own transgender perspective.

5) Expanding a bit on number 2. I invite you to read an excellent webmanga titled "A Vacation with the Ponytailed Tanning Boy" the official link is https://comic.pixiv.net/works/5226 (please support the author) but a translation is available from www.[you-know-where].c0m. This is a shotacon story about an androgynous boy with long hair who likes to wear a ponytail. He doesn't wear girl's clothes though. What is explored in this series is a suggestive love affair typical of shotacon. The difference is the way in which the adult main character sees his much younger cousin. If you want to accuse content about traps promoting child sexualization fine, if that makes you feel better fine. But the point I'm trying to make here is that traps exist as an expression of this idea about the purity and innocence of young boys that can equal or even surpass that of people assigned female at birth. The manga does it in a very warmhearted and sincere way (don't dismiss or judge it because it's a shotacon manga).

So why all this in support of trap liberation? I REALLY like traps. I feel compelled to spread love of traps with fellow trap fans and new ones, without condemnation and scrutiny by, of all people, fellow LGBTQers (and yes I do know of several transwomen who happily label themselves traps).

Please have a read of this post from JacobC.

JacobC wrote:

Hey guys!

Since there seems to be some confusion about it, here's why "trap" is a really crappy word and people are giving you stink-eye for tossing it around like it's hilarious. As if saying "trap" is just inherently funny or necessary to say over and over again, and adding any additional context for the label makes it any better.

First of all, "trap" originated on 4chan, from ye olde Star Wars Ackbar scene. The fact that it originated on 4chan might be enough of a red flag for some of you, but in case it's not for most of you, here's a very simple plain english breakdown for why women and LGBT folk see that word (and usually the context it's used in by the person who used it) and feel uncomfortable. This is specifically why it's a slur.

Calling a person a "trap" because they're a "biological man in women's clothing" is hurtful because by the word's very plain definition, you are reducing that person to a position of "sexual object if woman, mistake/problem for me if not." The implication is that by looking like an attractive woman, (it is only ever used for people who "pass," you may notice, no one ever uses "trap" for a clearly masculine man in a dress,) they are automatically a sexual option for you, that is their purpose, and if there's a dick under that skirt, you've been "tricked" and that's their fault. It's used as the punchline for a joke, but by cosplaying as a woman, in NO WAY did this guy invite your sexual advances or judgment, whether he's transgender or identifies as a man and just enjoys wearing women's clothing. It's especially not funny considering that the number of trans women or drag performers that have been harassed or murdered because men thought they were women and decided to be violent when they discovered they weren't is really really depressingly high.

Either way, the word is gross, unfunny, punching down, and unkind not only to the man in women's clothing, but also betrays a diminishing attitude toward women: If a woman is pretty, that means she exists to be sexualized by you. If she's secretly a man, that's apparently both your business and your problem. That's what "trap" means, all of that in one crappy little syllable. It's hurtful and shitty. It won't be tolerated here. Hopefully, you can see where we're coming from. If not, you can take it somewhere else.

This issue isn't the topic. It's the word. After reading Jacob's post I stopped using the term. There are other words you could use that don't carry the same connotations.

Errinundra wrote:

This issue isn't the topic. It's the word. After reading Jacob's post I stopped using the term. There are other words you could use that don't carry the same connotations.

If it's not clear from the title of my thread, I am appealing to the acceptance of the connotations of the word itself to no longer be negative in any way. Discussing and being open to the topic of traps is simply a means to that end. I'm fully aware this goal of mine may not be met with much agreement, but it is truly my goal.

@ Past - here are some of my counter-arguments:

Quote:

The authors who create manga featuring or about otokonoko (the Japanese language equivalent of trap, literally meaning daughter boy) do NOT make these works to intentionally disrespect LGBTQ sensibilities.

This is always one of my least favourite rationalizations for arguing to keep a word that has become toxic to a certain segment of society. When there's a conflict between a creator's intention and how a group feels about a word, I default to siding with the group that feels slighted by it. Plus, this point is kind of irrelevant because I don't think anybody is arguing against having otokonoko characters... they'd just prefer these characters not be referred to as "traps."

Quote:

Let me remind you manga authors are Japanese, creating content for the Japanese market...

Okay, let me stop you right there. Japanese rights holders license their product to international companies. Those international companies then distribute that product to their home markets. So the fact that the Japanese creators may not have had an international market in mind is irrelevant. I'm watching things that I pay for, that Japanese rights holders have consented for me to watch. Ergo, I am perfectly within my rights to comment on anything I want. End of story. But again, this point seems irrelevant because I thought we were discussing the use of an English word that is used by non-Japanese speakers to describe a certain type of character?

The whole crux of your argument seems to be - and I'm sorry if I'm misrepresenting your position, but this is how it's coming across to me - "I'm not offended by the use of the word "trap" to describe a certain type of character, so lets continue to use it because those who are offended shouldn't be."

My question to you is... why do you care about using that word? Sure, you may not be offended by it and actually like it, but given that you are aware that some people view it in a pegorative light, why do you continue to advocate for its use?

Past wrote:

Errinundra wrote:

This issue isn't the topic. It's the word. After reading Jacob's post I stopped using the term. There are other words you could use that don't carry the same connotations.

If it's not clear from the title of my thread, I am appealing to the acceptance of the connotations of the word itself to no longer be negative in any way. Discussing and being open to the topic of traps is simply a means to that end. I'm fully aware this goal of mine may not be met with much agreement, but it is truly my goal.

If that is your intent, then having this sentence up front is very misleading:

Quote:

It is my wish that the word "trap" in the context of characters appearing as the opposite sex no longer be listed as a violation of forum rules and etiquette as long as its not being used to insult someone (real or fictional).

Lets talk about empathy.

First of all, you posted this asking for it. You wanted your point of view considered and thought of and ultimately decided in favor of. You're probably thinking that isn't asking very much at all. Which is why we're gonna talk about the complete lack of it you've actually shown.

1) You already know it's not allowed here.
So right off the bat you know, for empathetic reasons, that the word isn't allowed here. The specific people it hurts, and, for further insult, admit that you were involved in the discussion here before when it was spelled out to you why it is not. Knowing all that context you still made this post, because you decided their lived experiences and pain are secondary to... your enjoyment of your fetish.
2) You have another word right there.
The fact you are freely able to use a different word is apparently not enough for you. Instead you feel that you have to ask for everyone to please, sympathize with you, and completely disregard those "offended" (the people that actually live the experience you have chosen to show no empathy for by continuing this argument), once again with the reasoning of... it interferes with your personal enjoyment of your fetish.
3) Reclaiming a word
Reclaiming language is an empowering cultural force, but one that takes a lot of time and effort, and, most importantly actual empathy. Do you know what happens in the process of reclamation and someone invested in doing so uses a word in the presence of someone who is affected by it and not comfortable with it? They stop in the presence of that person. They do not rant or yell or talk down to them about why it's important they have to hurt them. Because anyone actually invested in reclamation understands the full weight and context of the words they are using, and the reasons they want to take power away from them, and know that is not done by using them to further hurt others. It is a collaborative process of language by those affected by it, and not forced upon others especially and most importantly so by someone who is interested in it for fetishization purposes.

So no, you have not come here and posted this respectfully. You are being actively disrespectful and unempathetic. This post is incredibly selfish and shortsighted. You have read the rules. You have heard directly from those impacted about why they are in place. You simply do not have empathy for them. Instead you are singularly focused on your own gratification above others actual lives. You came here asking for empathy, and I am asking you to leave this thread by actually learning some.

Hi Past,

Thank you for your feedback, but as a policy, I absolutely must decline your request.

Once a word is used in a hateful way towards a particular group, especially a marginalized or underprivileged group, the use of that word is no longer acceptable by anyone (except perhaps members of said group trying to "own" the term).

I understand that when you use "trap," you don't mean it in a hateful sense, but please understand that just hearing it used is hurtful to many people. So regardless of your intentions, you are hurting people when you use it. Furthermore, please understand that the very origin of the term is hurtful (the implication that transgender and crossdressing individuals are trying to "trap" victims). So the belief that the term is harmless is ignorant of the insulting origin of the term.

Think about any racial epithet, including those that are often used negatively towards your own ethnicity. Would it be acceptable if someone used one of those terms in a friendly jovial manner? No, obviously it would not. The same is true of Trap.

ANN's policy on hate speech will not change. Words that have a hateful connotation will not be allowed, even by people who are not intentionally trying to cause harm when using those words.

A couple answer to your points:

Quote:

1) The authors who create manga featuring or about otokonoko...

I don't see how this is relevant. Most of these authors do not use the term, "Trap." Even if they do, what they do in Japan has no impact on what we do here. We are not forcing them to change the way they do things.

Quote:

2) Let me remind you manga authors are Japanese,

Same as above.

Quote:

3) I thought if there is something personally offensive to you being discussed in a thread, it can be easily resolved by simply avoiding that thread.

This is not a matter of "personally offensive," this is a matter of hateful/hurtful language. We do not tell Black people to just avoid the threads where people are using the N-Word, we forbid use of the N-Word.

Quote:

When has ANN become so kowtowing to every person who happens to be offended by something?

We're not kowtowing to anyone. That would imply that we are begrudgingly doing something because we've been forced to. We're doing this because it's the right thing to do.

Quote:

4) Yes some ANN staff members are LGBTQ identifying.

This is irrelevant. Our rules were not made for our staff. They were made the benefit of our entire community, and we forbid all hateful language, even language that harms groups that are not represented on our staff.

Quote:

So why all this in support of trap liberation? I REALLY like...

Most people don't really like it when you speak about them this way. Try going up to an Asian American woman and replacing the words you used with a seemingly positive racial epithet to describe Asians. Just because you "like" a group, doesn't mean you are respectful of them. Most groups want your respect, not your fetishization. Look up orientalism and yellow fever.

Anyway, if you really like trans people, try being sensitive to their needs and putting those needs ahead of your desires.

Quote:

If it's not clear from the title of my thread, I am appealing to the acceptance of the connotations of the word itself to no longer be negative in any way

This will happen when trans people tell you that they no longer find the word hurtful. It's not up to a non-trans person to decide when that is.

Quote:

several transwomen who happily label themselves traps

You may have noticed that many Black people use the N-word. Obviously most of them do not appreciate non Black people using it, even if those people use it lovingly.

Christopher Macdonald
Publisher, Anime News Network

There are a lot of responses, I'll try to address something from everybody. But first I would like to focus on A Tasty Sub's comments:

Quote:

Lets talk about empathy.

No, let's stay on topic and talk about words that were actually mentioned. Empathy is nice, and it is another way of putting what I did say about respect and sincerity but I am more interested in responses that contain reason and evidence. Was I disrespectful to anyone? No. Did I use reason backed up with evidence in my argument? I think so. I am sorry to fall short of your apparently huge hangups on empathy.

Quote:

You already know it's not allowed here.

Of course, why the hell would I go through all the trouble of debating the topic with multiple argument points and references? Are you even familiar with the concept of debate? Do we ever just not debate something because its "not allowed"? Yes rules exist but I'm arguing this rule is unnecessarily overarching and restrictive and it needs to be changed. It's not about personal enjoyment it's about a gross exaggeration of negative connotations of a word that I think resonated with people in the wrong way far removed from the intent and reasons it does have acceptance with others.

Ok and now for Tempest's comments:

Quote:

I don't see how this is relevant. Most of these authors do not use the term, "Trap." Even if they do, what they do in Japan has no impact on what we do here.

"No impact?" I'm sorry, being the CEO of ANN this is an extremely irresponsible generalization for you to make. Why do we have forum threads and articles devoted to covering the coronavirus impacts on releases and production? Very much what happens in Japan impacts what we do here. You can't review episodes that do not exist, we can't simply refer to a series by a different name because we don't like the title it was given (with the exception of differences due to language translation), and let's say I wanted to make a topic that discusses the difference between traps and otokonoko. I can't do that without butthurt cropping up because some people don't like the word trap. I'm not saying people aren't free to express their butthurt but like I said I'm looking for reason and evidence not just empathy.

I don't want to leave out Blood-:

Quote:

My question to you is... why do you care about using that word? Sure, you may not be offended by it and actually like it, but given that you are aware that some people view it in a pegorative light, why do you continue to advocate for its use?

Because it's not a slur as Jacob Chapman first suggested. I am advocating for "it's use." Let me point out we can still actually USE words that are slurs in a certain context but not as a form of descriptive. But for instance, suppose someone was giving their opinion of a guy crossplaying a female character. One word that is a slur and offensive in its connotations no matter how you interpret it is "bitch."

Referring to the cosplayer, "that guy thinks he's a bitch." This is both sexist and transphobic because it insinuates a desire to present as female isn't enough to satisfy the standards of what the viewer deems appropriate female presentation. It's placing more importance on the objectifiers definition of female than the transperson's perception of their identity and their freedom to express it.

The word trap does not imply this. For example, "that guy thinks he's a trap / that guy is a trap." Either way it's placing emphasis on the individuals choice of expression and in reality it could be seen as a compliment because their femininity shines through in their dress and concealment of the sex they happened to be assigned at birth. This idea of tricking someone is not the cosplayer's fault; it's the objectifiers fault for being so insecure in their own sexuality that they would be offended someone passing as female could "have a dick under there" (as Jacob put it). See the difference?

@ Past - it's taken me a long time (way too long, actually) to come to some common sense posting habits and one of them is recognizing when you are dealing with somebody who is being unreasonable about a topic and that continuing to engage on that topic is a waste of time. I have made that determination about you on this topic, so this will be my last appearance in this thread (assuming it doesn't take some new, productive direction).

What makes me throw up my hands is your bald assertion that the word in question is not a slur as if you personally are some ultimate arbiter of such matters. Slurs don't work that way. Words become slurs because a) certain groups perceive them as such and b) they get a buy-in from enough people in a certain environment to consider them slurs. Both those conditions pertain to that word at ANN. Note that "buy-in" doesn't mean 100% acceptance. It just means a significant enough agreement that cooperation in perceiving that a word is a slur is sustainable. I find the reasons some people object to the word to be very persuasive whereas your "arguments" against these reasons are not.

I'm actually a little sad about this. You and I have not ever commented directly at each other before (that I can remember) but I recognize your username as one that has made useful contributions in the past (heh) so it's a bit disappointing to see this side of you. Oh well.

Sorry to disappoint you Blood- but I'm disappointed for the many users making crass judgments and insults against people who don't object to the use of trap in their terminology (and self-proclaimed trap fans like me).

And I'm disappointed in the apparent lack of logic and avoidance in addressing why people are targeting this word in particular even though some other words that are undeniably slurs and objectionable concepts are not getting this treatment.

It's been said trap is hateful language (as opposed to taboo behavior like incest) so that's why it's being disproportionately singled out here. I've avoided suggesting whether its analogous to the N-word, but Tempest already went there.

So I'm also disappointed in the lack of reasoning trap is hateful language in the same way the N-word is in that it is a targeted and willful pejorative against a particular group of people. How is this true of traps? I've read Jacob's posts attempting to explain this and I find the rationale flawed, full of misinformation and frankly ridiculous. It astounds me how people are latching onto it aside from obvious sympathy because of the marginalization of transpeople. But that can't be the only reason.

Blood- I liked your slur explanation but if it's all about perception, maybe the perception is incorrect. Maybe it's based on a misunderstanding. Like I explained about tricking someone, the crossplayer who may or may not perfectly pass as a woman isn't trying to trick anyone. The trick is the bigot who can't accept not knowing whether a pretty girl is a transwoman, cis woman or just a talented crossplayer. I hope we can all agree we don't want to be that bigot.

Blood- wrote:

I find the reasons some people object to the word to be very persuasive whereas your "arguments" against these reasons are not.

Can you find me one of these persuasive reasons and link or quote it here?

The publisher of the website told you no. Your petition was read by mods and staff and was not convincing to change the policy. Thread is locked.

Forum - View topic
A Call to Stop Demonizing "Trap" and its Use in the Forum

This Week in Anime - So, Is Sound Euphonium Queerbaiting or Not?

Wonderful Precure! Episodes 1-12 Anime Review

That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime: The Ways of Monster Nation Manga Ends Due to Artist's Health

Godzilla x Kong: The New Empire Dips to #3 in 4th Weekend, SPY×FAMILY Film Debuts at #5 at U.S. Box Office

Dead Dead Demon's Dededede Destruction Part 1 Anime Film Review

Eiyuden Chronicle: Hundred Heroes Game Review

The ANN Aftershow - What Anime Should You Watch Part 2 (Spring 2024)

Forum - View topicA Call to Stop Demonizing "Trap" and its Use in the Forum

Forum

Forum - View topic
A Call to Stop Demonizing "Trap" and its Use in the Forum