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EP. REVIEW: Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works


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sainta



Joined: 21 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:52 pm Reply with quote
MOD NOTE: Due to the volatility of off-topic conversation prompted by the topic, discussion of whether or not the original visual novel of Fate/stay Night is sexist or not is now OFF LIMITS. If this comes up in the new anime, which this thread is supposed to be about, that's fine, but only in that case. Period. This rule will be strictly enforced.

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I'm really digging the series and it's a shame it's split cour. I guess I'll watch Zero when the first cour ends.
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WikiSonic



Joined: 23 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:55 pm Reply with quote
I don't agree with your assessment of the visual novel at all, but at least you like the adaptation.
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Stark700



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:58 pm Reply with quote
sainta wrote:
I'm really digging the series and it's a shame it's split cour. I guess I'll watch Zero when the first cour ends.


Why would it be a shame?

It would give them more production time for the second cour. I also wonder if the first episode of the second half is also 40+ minutes.
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AsherFischell



Joined: 24 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:31 pm Reply with quote
"Still, what I didn't expect was some of the worst writing and most heinous misogyny I've seen in a widely acclaimed product since the last time I tried to read a Brett Easton Ellis novel. "

Oh, boy. Well, at least that sentence let me know not to read another review by Gabriella.
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ThatGuyWhoLikesThings



Joined: 04 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:40 pm Reply with quote
AsherFischell wrote:
"Still, what I didn't expect was some of the worst writing and most heinous misogyny I've seen in a widely acclaimed product since the last time I tried to read a Brett Easton Ellis novel. "

Oh, boy. Well, at least that sentence let me know not to read another review by Gabriella.



Uh, well, the "worst writing" bit is arguable, but the misogyny part is pretty much undeniable. Anyone with even a bit of knowledge of the Fate route, or hell, even the Heaven's Feel route, would know that the sexism is really prevalent.

*points to Shirou and Sakura*

Though, one could argue that the sexism is instead presented as a character flaw in Shirou's case, so that the narrative can spit in his face later on by revealing that spoiler[Saber, who is a girl, is in fact King Arthur, one of the legendary heroes that Shirou aspires to be.]
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vanfanel



Joined: 26 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:45 pm Reply with quote
AsherFischell wrote:
Oh, boy. Well, at least that sentence let me know not to read another review by Gabriella.


I haven't read Fate, and thus can't speak to the misogyny issue, but I have read a few chapters of their more recent "Mahoutsukai no Yoru." I want to like it, but the writing style is just driving me up the wall. The writers can't seem to say anything just one time; every little detail has to be expressed in three or four different ways before we're allowed to move on. I don't know if this is a Type-Moon thing or a VN thing, but to me, it feels like they really need a good editor to tighten things up and keep it moving.

If "Mahoutsukai no Yoru" were adapted as a big-budget anime by UFOtable, they wouldn't have time for the repetitive nonsense, and I would totally come away from the first episode feeling that a diamond in the rough had been excavated and polished up.
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JacobC
ANN Assistant Editor


Joined: 15 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:47 pm Reply with quote
ThatGuyWhoLikesThings wrote:

Though, one could argue that the sexism is instead presented as a character flaw in Shirou's case, so that the narrative can spit in his face later on by revealing that spoiler[Saber, who is a girl, is in fact King Arthur, one of the legendary heroes that Shirou aspires to be.]


But enough of that, let's have him spoiler[conquer her heart and mind in the same ridiculous way it would happen in any other eroge regardless. Who's getting a blowjob from King Arthur? YOU'RE getting a BJ from King Arthur, Shirou!]

Anyway, the point is that opinions on the visual novel are just that: opinions. People can debate whether the game is well or poorly written, misogynist or not, but they're personal arguments, and the reviewer is perfectly justified in stating whichever one she stands behind.

Reason I bring it up is to head off any "Well maybe you didn't really read it" stuff, because that gets annoying in Type-Moon threads real fast. Errbuddy entitled to their own opinion here.
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AsherFischell



Joined: 24 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:49 pm Reply with quote
ThatGuyWhoLikesThings wrote:

Though, one could argue that the sexism is instead presented as a character flaw in Shirou's case, so that the narrative can spit in his face later on by revealing that spoiler[Saber, who is a girl, is in fact King Arthur, one of the legendary heroes that Shirou aspires to be.]


Yeah, Shirou was intentionally meant to be misogynistic for that exact purpose. He's this guy who thinks women should be protected and cared for with kid gloves, but he ends up constantly relying on them to stay alive. Outside of the H-scenes, (which I couldn't possibly defend) the women in the Fate universe are very strong-willed, powerful and well-developed. Saying that F/SN is "heinously misogynistic" is extremely far off base.
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I3uster



Joined: 04 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:49 pm Reply with quote
The misogyny is in there as a character flaw that the main protag overcomes.

Nasu has been on record saying that he is still trying to make strong female characters, explicitly.

It's so bizarre that he was picked as the forefront of misogyny in VN writing when you have stuff like Grisaia's main, Urobuchi and Takahiro to choose from.

It's kinda like wanting to point out misogyny in YA writing and then picking Collins as the root of all evil while walking past Meyer and friends, lol.
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Shenl742



Joined: 11 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:52 pm Reply with quote
Pretty much echoes my own feelings toward the original VN.

There's a lot of potential and good ideas in this franchise, and it pretty much has the potential to be an actionized, anime version of Bill Willingham's Fables. I just think it needs a good, focused direction and a willingness to trim some of the fat.
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Veniamin



Joined: 25 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:52 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Still, what I didn't expect was some of the worst writing and most heinous misogyny I've seen in a widely acclaimed product since the last time I tried to read a Brett Easton Ellis novel.


So, you didn't actually read the VN and forget that Shirou and every other girl fought on equal terms especially with Saber after she called out how stupid his actions were?
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ThatGuyWhoLikesThings



Joined: 04 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:59 pm Reply with quote
JesuOtaku wrote:
ThatGuyWhoLikesThings wrote:

Though, one could argue that the sexism is instead presented as a character flaw in Shirou's case, so that the narrative can spit in his face later on by revealing that spoiler[Saber, who is a girl, is in fact King Arthur, one of the legendary heroes that Shirou aspires to be.]


But enough of that, let's have him spoiler[conquer her heart and mind in the same ridiculous way it would happen in any other eroge regardless. Who's getting a blowjob from King Arthur? YOU'RE getting a BJ from King Arthur, Shirou!]


Yeah, but I can't blame it too harshly, considering that's just the way VNs generally work. Still dumb though, I agree. Laughing

Though, if I recall, those hentai scenes were something that were forced in by the publishers, were they not? Doesn't excuse the completely retarded writing that they have, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Nasu just decided that he was gonna have fun making them if he had to do it anyway. And, uh, you can tell he had fun doing it. Shocked
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Shenl742



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:01 pm Reply with quote
vanfanel wrote:
AsherFischell wrote:
Oh, boy. Well, at least that sentence let me know not to read another review by Gabriella.


I haven't read Fate, and thus can't speak to the misogyny issue, but I have read a few chapters of their more recent "Mahoutsukai no Yoru." I want to like it, but the writing style is just driving me up the wall. The writers can't seem to say anything just one time; every little detail has to be expressed in three or four different ways before we're allowed to move on. I don't know if this is a Type-Moon thing or a VN thing, but to me, it feels like they really need a good editor to tighten things up and keep it moving


It's both really. Type-Moon seem really overly obsessed with world building. I think there's at least one data/artbook devoted entirely to characters who've never made an onscreen appearance. I mean, I'm sure the stuff behind how magic works, and the mythology and the universe etc., can definitely be very interesting, but at the same time it can be just so damn overwhelming too.

And as to the other thing, I believe a lot of VN creators start out as doujin groups...so I guess they probably DON'T have editors, or anyone on the professional or business end to really tell them "Hey, do you think we need this part? It seems kind of superfluous and really stalls the pacing".
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I3uster



Joined: 04 Sep 2014
Posts: 45
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:01 pm Reply with quote
"Publisher mandated" is bullshit, more like market mandated. All rereleases have them cut out though if that helps your conscience of liking icky anime titties.

(okay seriously the h is terrible, not only thanks to the translation)
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JacobC
ANN Assistant Editor


Joined: 15 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:02 pm Reply with quote
Veniamin wrote:
Quote:
Still, what I didn't expect was some of the worst writing and most heinous misogyny I've seen in a widely acclaimed product since the last time I tried to read a Brett Easton Ellis novel.


So, you didn't actually read the VN and forget that Shirou and every other girl fought on equal terms especially with Saber after she called out how stupid his actions were?


Man, what did I just say? What did I just say?

I'll bold it: Just because a reviewer has a different opinion from you does not make them wrong or "not a real fan who didn't really read it." It means they came away from an eroge intended for a young male audience with, imagine that, the perception that maybe its female character writing was pretty gross.

Everybody knows that Shirou's "women shouldn't fight" thing is framed by the narrative as being "the wrong opinion." That is not the sexism/misogyny that most people are referring to when they talk about F/SN. They're not talking about that small part of the Fate route, they realize that "Saber can (physically) fight on her own" is an assertion of the narrative, but that's kinda nothing on the "not sexist" scale. Dissenters are usually talking about completely different parts of Fate, Heaven's Feel, and stuff sprinkled all throughout the story. This innocuous bit of skin-crawl, for example. There are other wildly upsetting aspects of that visual novel for women, even with the sex scenes turned off.

By the way, Nasu's statements about "trying to do better and write stronger female characters" are widely known, but do consider there might be a reason he had to make those statements in the first place.
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