Forum - View topicBleach - [adult swim] broadcast.
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Richard J.
 Posts: 3367 Location: Sic Semper Tyrannis. |
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Personally, I'd just like to see more honorifics left in and have characters actually refer to each other by the name they did in the original Japanese. My reasoning is that these things are a part of the character's relationships. In other words, for the same reason you wouldn't change a character saying "you are my favorite person in the world!" to "you're a nice person," I don't think honorifics and such should be dropped. The character relationships are changed by having a character refer to someone by their first name rather than their last. I don't mind them using western naming conventions when the full name is given since the surname and given name are still the same just in a different order. The connotation isn't different. However, having the characters all referring to each other by their first name makes everyone seem far closer than they actually are and it creates false impressions of character dynamics. If Bleach were set in a western country or if it were more ambiguous about where it was set, it wouldn't bother me, but this series is very Japanese. I don't think the dub is ruined or anything but some of the choices they've made do seem inappropriate to me. If the dub for Shagukan no Shana can keep the use of last names and have Yuji's mother calling Shana "Shana-chan," surely Bleach could have kept a few similar elements. It's not like Bleach wasn't expected to be a success, right? Did they really need to localize it at all? It's Bleach for crying out loud! It was going to be a hit unless they completely One Piece'd it! |
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frentymon
Forums Superstar
 Posts: 2362 Location: San Francisco |
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"Hello, I am 黒崎 一護. I am 十五歳だ。One day, in my 部屋, I met a 死神 named 朽木 ルキア. 俺は reluctant 最初, but then 俺は死神に成った。そして I met a ぬいぐるみ named コン. 彼 is a 馬鹿." Is that the kind of dub dialogue you're expecting? |
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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How is that even English? I've never seen a worse fansub than that, and I've seen Chinese fansubs. |
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frentymon
Forums Superstar
Posts: 2362 Location: San Francisco |
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It's not. It's a rather recent hybrid language known only as Japanglish. Judging by complaints in this thread and everywhere else, it's apparently the language in which some purists would rather have dubs be in.
I can see where you're coming from, and it may work for more niche titles such as Shana, but in Bleach's case, I don't think it would be a great idea. While the people who will buy the Shana DVDs are most likely familiar with Japanese honorifics and what they mean, Bleach is broadcasted on American television and much of the audience will be unfamiliar with Japanese honorifics. It would therefore have no emotional connotations to many of them whatsoever, as they are unfamiliar with what it represents. It would probably confuse a few people as well. Plus, it sounds awkward and almost silly among English dialogue. Which actually bugs me more than what I mentioned above. |
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SharinganEyes92
 Posts: 816 |
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Ok, now, I'm pretty sure the reason that companies Americanize the dubs to such an extent, which has bothered you all so much, is to widen their demographic and appeal to a larger target audience. They wouldn't want to alienate possible viewers with stupid Japanglish in their dubs (Not to mention that the Japanglish would completely disrupt the flow of the dub, but that's a different argument....).
Ordinary people who are NOT familiar with the Japanese language and honorifics will not understand the meaning and use of such suffixes as -san, -chan, -dono, -kun, and -sama. The usage of such terminology, as well as putting people's last names first, can potentially alienate the viewer, and result in a loss of enjoyment of the product (there's probably a better word for that concept). Loss of enjoyment --> loss of interest --> loss of income due to low demand for said product. Wouldn't you say it's pretty logical to edit and revise your product so that it appeals to a wider audience whose interest would lead to more business? I think it does, and I'm pretty sure the licensing companies do too. The average viewer hearing, "Hey, Shana-chan, what time is it?", probably won't understand what the hell the -chan is for. However, in the case of Shakugan no Shana, the product is aimed at a niche audience who most likely understand the honorifics and their usage, hence its DVD release with the probability of never airing. Bleach, on the other hand, is not the same case. It is broadcast on Adult Swim, unlike Shakugan no Shana (a pretty good series, btw), and has much more exposure to a different demographic. Usage of honorifics and putting a character's last name first can potentially and probably alienate that different audience. The average, casual AS viewer would not understand "Inoue-chan, what time is it?" Plus, if bardok were running the show, they would definitely not understand "Inoue-chan, daijobu desu ka?" ..... Anyway, the projected response from the casual viewer would be along the lines of the following: "'Inoue-chan'? I thought her name was Orihime! Dude, this is screwed up! Is she related to Jackie Chan?" If you were the head of a licensing company with a product projected to be in high demand with all sorts of demographics, such as Viz with Bleach, would you want that response from possible customers and consumers of your product? I think NOT! Of course, you guys can come up with some witty rebuttal to my argument because my knowledge is limited to what my brother teaches me about business, but, Viz's approach to how they handled the dub is logical, and professional. Edit - It seems that frentymon beat me to some of the points I was trying to make in this post as I switched between the Giants game and my post. |
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suna_suna
 Posts: 550 Location: Ohio |
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nice points. i agree, if someone was called Kurosaki-kun and i didn't know about the honorifics, and that his name is Ichigo, i would probably assume that his first name is Kurosakikun. i don't know how Bleach's ratings are doing, but if it is being watched by any other demographic than niche anime fans, than all the name changes and other things were perfectely in order.
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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I've never once seen anyone promoting the use of kana in subtitling. Could you point these people out?
then they learn. It's not hard to pick up, and it doesn't make the show harder to understand if you don't know them at first. Besides, the show is run in Adult Swim, so it's fair to assume adult level intelligence.
It would actually work better in a lot of cases, since instead of trying to mangle the words "Hey Ichigo!" into the mouth movements for "Oi, Kurasaki-Kun!", they could just run with the original term and mouth movements.
I don't know why some people are confusing the desire to have the dub use standard, understood honorifics and Japanese-unique terms with some imagined desire for there to be no translation of the material whatsoever. It really makes you guys look like idiots, arguing against straw men like that. |
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patch
 Posts: 677 Location: New York, NY |
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Well said SharinganEyes and great points on why honorifics/naming won't really work for a 'mainstream' series, but I can definately see where Richard is coming from demanding perfection
I have watched just about every episode of Bleach subtitled and throughly enjoy the series, but I think Viz has done a great job handling the Soul Reaper arc so far. I can say I'm definitely enjoying the arc much more this time around then when I saw the original version, but I really can't wait until they get in to the spoiler[Soul Society] arc to see if they can maintain this level of quality. |
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vickeyv
Posts: 183 |
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while this debate of purists and what retentions should be made from the japanese version and what alterations the english version should have people have over looked a vital topic, what about the sentai thing. Should Viz change it to Power Rangers or keep it that way. I think the change should be made, since the joke was super awesome and i was laughing like hell, and i thankfuly had just recently heard that Sentai were the Power Rangers of Japan, so i could relate to it but most people won't.
So what should be done then, leave it as Sentai or change it the Power Rangers |
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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What were they called in the Japanese version? I thought it was something like "____Rangers" or something, I'm sure people would still get the joke. Most Sentai series in Japan have similar names (well usually) to the American version. Mystic Force was Magiranger, SPD was Dekaranger, Ninja Force was Hurrikanger. Also, Power Rangers is the Sentai of America, not the other way around. They had it first by about fifteen years. |
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AirCooledMan_2006
 Posts: 594 Location: Delaware, U.S. |
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You gotta remember, not all Japanese words translate well into English and vice versa. "Soul Reaper" fits well enough. <--------Wonders if there's still any pissed Bleachatards ranting about the dub (There likely are). |
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Richard J.
Posts: 3367 Location: Sic Semper Tyrannis. |
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Anyway, SharinganEyes has some good points but I think there is one critical flaw in his reasoning and Viz's presumed dub strategy. Anime is not mainstream and it is popular with a niche audience because it is different from the mainstream. If the anime licensing companies wanted mainstream success, they'd only license comedies and children's shows. They would change all names to western ones, claim the series was in the US, and replace all cultural jokes with standard comedy. The only animation that has seen mainstream success in the US are comedy programs like The Simpsons and family-friendly stuff like Disney movies. Anime became popular because it was different from typical animation here in the US. It was drawn differently and the stories, even watered down and edited, were more maturely written. Also, there is a requirement that you expect the potential fan base to be incapable or at least unwilling to accept and embrace things which are culturally different from western norms. The group of people most likely to watch new anime series to begin with are video game players, Internet junkies, and those who are brought into anime watching by other anime fans. In other words, people who are already likely to embrace new and different things. Tell me, do you really see people who watch Prison Break and Lost and other live action dramas tuning into Bleach without being told by an anime fan that it is a great series? Do you see them dropping it just because of a few Japanese cultural quirks rather than the fact that it's an animated action series and not a family or comedy series? Plainly, people prefer dubs over subtitles. We know this from the VHS wars. People want an English dub. However, people want it to be close to the original meaning and intent. For some, that just means that lines aren't drastically re-written. For others, like myself, it means we also want the Japanese cultural elements preserved. |
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patch
Posts: 677 Location: New York, NY |
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Actually, neither! I was honestly trying to say that I can see where you are coming from because I'm the same way -- no matter how good something is, there are always ways to improve upon it, and there's nothing wrong with that. |
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Richard J.
Posts: 3367 Location: Sic Semper Tyrannis. |
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Glad to know I'm not the only person who thinks that there is always a way to improve things. I've said before that the Bleach dub is a very good one. I have a problem with it but that hasn't prevented me from liking it or from buying it when it starts coming out in boxsets. (When a series is as long as Bleach, I can't justify buying the individual volumes unless there are some serious perks.) If nothing else, you can always count on me to praise Michelle Ruff's performance as Rukia. (I'm a total fanboy when it comes to her.) |
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SnowStar_7*
 Posts: 87 |
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I think honorifics work well in a manga book, because well we are reading it in our head and not actually hearing it come from someone saying it in an actual conversation. But, putting honorific in an animated series is just silly. After all it is supposed to be an English dub. The language brings along alot of natural changes. I actually even dislike it when they say sensei or other common Japanese words, because it sounds unnatural and even more so with the usual bad pronounciation.
I do admit though that I do wish the actual name that is being said in the sub (given name, family name) were said in the dub. Simply because even in English you have people calling you by either your first or last name depending how formal or comfortable you are with them (though of course it is not as strict as it is in Japan). I think it takes away some of the dynamic/relationship between the characters when you takes away this. I mean if honorifics are being taken away this should be leaven intact (not that I want honorifcs included of course). |
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