Forum - View topic
Rei the Second Angel?




Anime News Network Forum Index -> General -> Anime
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Wolf X



Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 93
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:21 am Reply with quote
I don't know if it has been discussed before and I am too lazy to search the forum to see if it has but...

I am a huge fan of Neon Genesis Evangelion and there has been aspect of the series that I have never understood. The first angel was the one in Antarctica that destroyed much of the world in the aftermath but the series jumped to the third angel at the beginning? From that point on the series went about the list of different angels but never touching base on the second angel. After the reaction between Rei and Adam, my suspicion was that Rei was actually the second angel? Am I correct in this matter or am I wrong and there is a different explanation? If I am wrong please elaborate the origan of the second angel and the reaction between Rei and Adam.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
TranceLimit174



Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 964
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:00 am Reply with quote
I don't think this series needs spoiler tags but just to be safe, spoiler[the second Angel is Lilith. Lilith is the Angel who is on on the cross in NERV. Initially she was thought to be Adam, but in the series it is revealed that it is in fact Lilith (Kaji delivers Adam in an embryotic state to Gendou). As you oughta know, the Evas were made from Adam, however Unit 01 was made from Lilith. Anyway NERV used Lilith to create the dummy plug system which is Rei. So more or less, Rei is a part of Lilith from what I was able to gather. Anyway in End Of Eva Gendou uses Rei and Adam to initiate the 3rd Impact but in that process I believe Rei becomes Lilith. So basically, Lilith is the second Angel and not Rei, but Rei is a part of and eventually becomes Lilith.]

I'm pretty sure that's right but there may be some holes in what I wrote (I know yet forget so much about that show which is why I watch it again every once in a while). Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on anything but I'm pretty sure that's the jist of it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Chiroptera Rex
Space Cowboy



Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 262
Location: The Batcave, Gotham City, Wisconsin.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:21 am Reply with quote
A bit more on that. spoiler[Rei is made from the DNA of Lilith and Yui Ikari. That's why Naoko Akagi says that she looks like Yui in "The Birth of NERV" and it's also why just before Rei enters Lilith in EoE, the on-screen text says
「おかえりなさい。」 (okaerinasai) or
"Welcome Home".]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:32 am Reply with quote
TranceLimit is absolutely correct, but I do have a couple of clarifications.


TranceLimit174 wrote:
spoiler[Anyway NERV used Lilith to create the dummy plug system which is Rei.]
spoiler[
And SEELE presumably used Adam to create the Kawouru dummy plug]


TranceLimit174 wrote:
spoiler[So more or less, Rei is a part of Lilith from what I was able to gather. Anyway in End Of Eva Gendou uses Rei and Adam to initiate the 3rd Impact but in that process I believe Rei becomes Lilith. So basically, Lilith is the second Angel and not Rei, but Rei is a part of and eventually becomes Lilith.]


spoiler[Rei was created from salvaged DNA from Yui Ikari's absorbtion "accident" into Unit 01 and Lillith. It is widely speculated, and pretty much confirmed by the Red Cross Book, which can't actually be considered absolute canon (Anno had nothing to do with it, it was created by Eva staff at Gainax), that the soul contained within Rei is that of non other then Lillith, which would make sense. ]

And Chiroptera beat me to a bit of the punch.

Chiroptera Rex wrote:
spoiler[ and it's also why just before Rei enters Lilith in EoE, the on-screen text says
(okaerinasai) or
"Welcome Home".]


That is a point that could become a bit misconstrued if not for the other facts. spoiler[Humans are the offspring of Lillith, therefore when a human returned to Lillith, as the Angels desire to return to Adam, that human would be "going home."]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger My Anime
joel_s95387



Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 1804
Location: California... The Village Hidden In The Porn
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:49 am Reply with quote
All this talk about Eva and other posts talking about RahXephon is making me want to watch these shows again. I saw Eva a couple of years back, when the "perfect collection" was released with the 8 DVDs, and I havn't seen it since but I remember being confused about Rei and having that gut feeling she spoiler[was an angel] because when the last angel spoiler[took control of Unit 02 and fought with Unit 01] I remember the NERV crew picking up signs of another angel and disappear all of a sudden and spoiler[Rei was shown when the confirmation was made.] Thanks for clearing that up and I didn't know spoiler[humans derived from lilith and Angels from Adam.] When do they hint, or do they straight out tell you, about spoiler[humans being forms of Lilith?] Is it an assumption since spoiler[Rei] was part of Lilith that the rest are? I always thought that spoiler[humans were the 18th Angel. Well I don't remember what number exactly but the number after the last angel who was human, was he gay?]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger My Anime My Manga
daxomni



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 2650
Location: Somewhere else.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:24 am Reply with quote
I guess I need to re-watch this yet again. This series really messes with my head, and not in a good way. It's really confusing to me to understand everything and fit it all together. Is there an English "Guide Book" to understanding the series for people like me who see much of the deeper story in Eva as just plain "out there"?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime
NGE1113



Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 1081
Location: Alexandria, VA.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:42 am Reply with quote
daxomni wrote:
Is there an English "Guide Book" to understanding the series for people like me who see much of the deeper story in Eva as just plain "out there"?


If you mean a book along the lines of the RaXephon Bible, then I don't think so. To this point, any book released about Eva was more or less an artbook. However, on Platinum volumes 5 and 7, there is a two part commentary by Matt Greenfield and Sean McCoy that helps illuminate the theme of the series, as well as some of the deeper points of it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:12 am Reply with quote
joel_s95387 wrote:
When do they hint, or do they straight out tell you, about spoiler[humans being forms of Lilith?] [snip][spoiler] I always thought that spoiler[humans were the 18th Angel. Well I don't remember what number exactly but the number after the last angel who was human, was he gay?]


spoiler[Kawouru was the 17th angel, and no he was not gay. He also is the one who talks about humans being Lillim (the offspring of Lillith), although it may have been mentioned earlier, I don't remember. Humans are the 18th angel. Much like the offspring of a cat is another cat, the offspring of an angel are other angels. That's why they are all given numbers, but all angels came from Adam, and we came from Lillith.]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger My Anime
Chiroptera Rex
Space Cowboy



Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 262
Location: The Batcave, Gotham City, Wisconsin.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:35 am Reply with quote
There is a really good commentary about "Zankoku na Tenshi no Thesis" in the insert for Platinum DVD 2 in which it asks, spoiler["[W]hy does the caption "ANGEL" appear after the scene of the boy's face and the scene of Rei Ayanami?" Now, every time I watch the opening I make it a point to catch that part.]

NGE1113 wrote:
on Platinum volumes 5 and 7, there is a two part commentary by Matt Greenfield and Sean McCoy that helps illuminate the theme of the series, as well as some of the deeper points of it.


I still have not purchased DVD 7, but I don't think that I'll be able to watch that second commentary with those two. I could barely get through the first one.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message My Anime My Manga
Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:46 am Reply with quote
Chiroptera Rex wrote:
There is a really good commentary about "Zankoku na Tenshi no Thesis" in the insert for Platinum DVD 2 in which it asks, spoiler["[W]hy does the caption "ANGEL" appear after the scene of the boy's face and the scene of Rei Ayanami?" Now, every time I watch the opening I make it a point to catch that part.]


Well sure, the OP for Eva basically reveals most of the mystery before ever starting the show. Of course, you can't necessarily realize that until after seeing the whole thing. (And watching the OP frame-by-frame)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger My Anime
TranceLimit174



Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 964
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:59 pm Reply with quote
Kazuki-san wrote:
joel_s95387 wrote:
When do they hint, or do they straight out tell you, about spoiler[humans being forms of Lilith?] [snip][spoiler] I always thought that spoiler[humans were the 18th Angel. Well I don't remember what number exactly but the number after the last angel who was human, was he gay?]


spoiler[Kawouru was the 17th angel, and no he was not gay. He also is the one who talks about humans being Lillim (the offspring of Lillith), although it may have been mentioned earlier, I don't remember. Humans are the 18th angel. Much like the offspring of a cat is another cat, the offspring of an angel are other angels. That's why they are all given numbers, but all angels came from Adam, and we came from Lillith.]


Just something to elaborate on, spoiler[The Angels from my understanding evolve throughout the show. While their actual forms don't neccessarily become more complex, each Angel has a different approach to reaching Adam. Anyway the different forms of the Angels symbolize a form of evolution, until at the end of the series the Angels finally evolve into their final form which just so happens to be...man.]

Just like tons of other fans I've spent a lot of time trying to dissect this show. The basics aren't hard to understand but there's always another layer to the show which is why it's a series that can be watched over and over.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Kazuki-san



Joined: 21 May 2004
Posts: 2251
Location: Houston, TX
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:59 pm Reply with quote
TranceLimit174 wrote:

Just something to elaborate on, spoiler[The Angels from my understanding evolve throughout the show. While their actual forms don't neccessarily become more complex, each Angel has a different approach to reaching Adam. Anyway the different forms of the Angels symbolize a form of evolution, until at the end of the series the Angels finally evolve into their final form which just so happens to be...man.]


I suppose you could look at it that way, spoiler[except, as Misato puts it, Angels have "rejected our human form," so I wouldn't necessarily say they evolve into man, even metaphorically speaking. Although yes, they do progressively evolve and strengthen with each new Angel.] The different forms are loosely derived from the names of the angels themselves. That is to say what they mean/symbolize in their religious context.

Borrowed from Eastern Standard Magazine wrote:
The Angels

All of the angels in Evangelion are genuine named ones (if you missed their names, rewatch the recap episodes more closely), and most of them bear the names they do for a reason. Here's a breakdown:

Adam: the first Angel, whose significance comes from the kabbalistic tradition that the Biblical Adam was the 'ultimate man' and a mystic symbol of wholeness and completion. As an aside, the design on the floor of Gendou's office is essentially a kabbalistic map of the universe, culminating in God in his aspect as the Unknowable... right at Gendou's desk.

The Second Angel's identity is never really spelled out, but it's a good guess that it's Lilith, who in Jewish tradition was Adam's first wife, who left him and bore legions of demons to bedevil his children. This is very interesting in light of some of the Seventeenth Angel's dialogue.

Sachiel: Third Angel and first one seen in the series. Sachiel is one of the cherubim, and is specifically noted as being a servitor of the princes of Hell.

Shamshel: Fourth angel, the guardian angel of Eden (that is, the angel charged with keeping humans out once they'd been evicted from it), and yet another fallen angel according to the apocryphal book of Enoch. This is the Angel some refer to as the 'naughty tentacle' Angel; I kindly suggest that these people calm down a bit.

Ramiel: Angel number five, chief of thunder who presides over true visions (appropriate for a show like Eva, even if his appearance doesn't have anything to do with that) and is depicted in the show as a giant blue octahedron.

Gaghiel: the aquatic sixth Angel, who I couldn't find much on. The Eva Sage (see the Further Investigation section) calls him the angel of fish, but I can't find a reference for that.

Israfel: Angel seven, the splitting one. In Arabic lore, Israfel is the angel who will blow the final trumpet on Judgement Day, and is also destined to be destroyed then (in other words, a harbinger of Apocalypse). Also the only Angel from Evangelion to be mentioned in the works of Edgar Allan Poe.

Sandalphon: the eighth Angel, who was found in a larval state in a volcano. Appropriately, he is said to be 'instrumental in bringing about the differentation of sex in the embryo'. Also said to be the same being as the prophet Elijah by some sources.

Matarael: Ninth Angel, the spidery weeping one. The aforementioned Book of Enoch calls it one of the rulers of the world, and angel of rain (chosen because it weeps a rain of acid? That's my best guess...)

Sahaquiel: this descending Tenth Angel is said to be ruler of the sky in Enoch.

Iruel: the viral Eleventh and called Angel of fear (which is appropriate, but not moreso for this one than any of the others).

Leliel: Angel Twelve is actually another demon, which rules the night and is called prince of conception (appropriate for its womblike nature).

Bardiel: Thirteenth in the series of Angels and the angel of hail (watch all the clouds in episode 18 closely).

Zeruel: Chief of the principalities, angel of strength, and Angel number Fourteen. This one is the strongest of the Angels that engages in physical combat, and also helped David kill Goliath.

Arael: The Fifteen Angel is the prince of birds and resembles one vaguely.

Armisael: Angel Sixteen is shaped like a glowing double helix (you know, DNA) and called the angel of the womb; make what sense of that you will.

Tabris: The final Angel seen, number Seventeen is said to be the angel of free will and that turns out to be a very appropriate choice of name.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger My Anime
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Anime News Network Forum Index -> General -> Anime All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group