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REVIEW: Umineko When They Cry Episode 5: End of the Golden Witch Volume 2 GN 11


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Double Mangekyo



Joined: 17 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:18 pm Reply with quote
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Where previous books focused on solving the mystery via clues and new information revealed as different characters finally got to tell their roles in the overall story, this volume is much more keen on looking at the mystery genre in a historical and literary context.

Nothing is stopping us from solving the mysteries. Umineko is split in 2 parts: 1) Question arcs, eps1-4, and 2) Answer arcs, eps5-8.
The second half (answer arcs), more specifically eps 5 and 6, are meant to give us hints on HOW to solve the mysteries that Beatrice posed to Battler for the first 4 episodes. Dlanor's existence is vital to this. Recall that her Knox Commandments (haven't read this yet? minor spoiler->) spoiler[functioned as red truth] in the game. That gives us an important hint, namely spoiler[Beatrice's gameboard adheres to these rules]. Erika, she is meant to be irritating (imo), is an arrogant and very cold-blooded little detective who, unlike Battler, has no bonds with the Ushiromiyas and therefore no qualms about damning whoever she suspects.

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When you come down to it, with this episode, the story has become less about we the readers solving the mystery and more about debating whether Knox's Commandments still have a place in mystery fiction.

This is completely false. The whole point of these arcs is to HELP us solve the mystery. Ryukishi07 isn't just going to give the readers answers (for now). Knox's rules are meant to be taken as a crutch, a tool we can use to reason out what transpires on the gameboard ourselves.

Take it from someone who's completed the source material. Umineko knows what it's doing, and if you wanna know the answers to the first 4 episodes, episode spoiler[7] is where they're at.
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ThatGuyWhoLikesThings



Joined: 04 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:16 pm Reply with quote
Double Mangekyo wrote:
Take it from someone who's completed the source material. Umineko knows what it's doing, and if you wanna know the answers to the first 4 episodes, episode spoiler[7] is where they're at.


Small correction, while spoiler[7] does indeed give you all the answers, the manner in which these answers are conveyed are very unorthodox and subtle, and someone might not realize what's going on unless they really think about what's being shown to them and what it means. When taking into account the personality and the motivations of the person who's showing these answers, this is absolutely justified, but spoiler[7] doesn't clearly and explicitly explain everything flat-out. That's what episode spoiler[8] does, and that's only in the manga.
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Joa



Joined: 25 Jul 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:21 pm Reply with quote
ThatGuyWhoLikesThings wrote:

Small correction, while spoiler[7] does indeed give you all the answers, the manner in which these answers are conveyed are very unorthodox and subtle, and someone might not realize what's going on unless they really think about what's being shown to them and what it means. When taking into account the personality and the motivations of the person who's showing these answers, this is absolutely justified, but spoiler[7] doesn't clearly and explicitly explain everything flat-out. That's what episode spoiler[8] does, and that's only in the manga.


No, in the manga version of Episode spoiler[7] they straight up say how everything was done. HUGE SPOILERS-> spoiler[You probably haven't read it since it isn't translated yet, but in the manga Will says how all the crimes were committed, instead of the cryptic "Illusions to illusions" thing in the VN]
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ThatGuyWhoLikesThings



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:43 pm Reply with quote
Joa wrote:
No, in the manga version of Episode spoiler[7] they straight up say how everything was done. HUGE SPOILERS-> spoiler[You probably haven't read it since it isn't translated yet, but in the manga Will says how all the crimes were committed, instead of the cryptic "Illusions to illusions" thing in the VN]


Ah, you're talking about the spoiler[crimes specifically]. I didn't make it clear, but I was more talking about spoiler[Sayo Yasuda's] motivations and the gritty details of their backstory and how they aren't stated explicitly at that point, as well as how spoiler[7 displays them through a fantastical and optimistic though still very somber lens, whereas 8's take on it is decidedly more raw, fatalistic, and cynical.]
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Joa



Joined: 25 Jul 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:59 pm Reply with quote
ThatGuyWhoLikesThings wrote:

Ah, you're talking about the spoiler[crimes specifically]. I didn't make it clear, but I was more talking about spoiler[Sayo Yasuda's] motivations and the gritty details of their backstory and how they aren't stated explicitly at that point, as well as how spoiler[7 displays them through a fantastical and optimistic though still very somber lens, whereas 8's take on it is decidedly more raw, fatalistic, and cynical.]


Oh, I misunderstood what you were talking about. But yeah, in that regard Episode spoiler[8] definitely has most of the answers.
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Tanteikingdomkey
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:16 pm Reply with quote
Yay I am sorry but you are kinda missing point imo on your reading of this volume and why they are debating about knox rules.

To be fair there is an argument to be made for the whole, "knox and van diane rules are useless in the series" however I really don't feel like that is the argument you are making, especially considering you seem to have missed the shift from question to answer arcs. To be fair that is probably a lot harder to do in the manga format and the two are a LOT more mixed together than it was in higurashi.

Yes the symbolism in this volume is very obvious, to be fair I think part of it is that it is supposed to be obnoxiously obvious symbolism to make it more disconcerting.

Some people hate the heavy meta turn that umineko takes but I think most people really do end up loving it.

Also can someone tell me if they altered dalanor's design in the manga, or found some way to make erika even more annonying then in the game?
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Joa



Joined: 25 Jul 2015
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:44 pm Reply with quote
Tanteikingdomkey wrote:

Also can someone tell me if they altered dalanor's design in the manga, or found some way to make erika even more annonying then in the game?


No, it's exactly the same, but I think Dlanor loses a lot of her charm without her voice acting.
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grooven



Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:32 pm Reply with quote
For me, this part of the game sort of slowed down for me. Too many characters were added and too much text to slog through. I think it works better in a game format, but even then it feels so bloated.

So I can't blame Rebecca for not liking this turn. As I mentioned before, in her end of year review, things do pick up and some answers come about. It's up in the air if you'll be satisfied.


Last edited by grooven on Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tanteikingdomkey
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:34 pm Reply with quote
Joa wrote:
Tanteikingdomkey wrote:

Also can someone tell me if they altered dalanor's design in the manga, or found some way to make erika even more annonying then in the game?


No, it's exactly the same, but I think Dlanor loses a lot of her charm without her voice acting.

"Beatrice: "Heheh, well then... Maybe he's under the bed?!"
Dlanor: "A check of that place has been FINISHED."
Beatrice: "Maybe he's in the bathtub!!"
Dlanor: "A check of that place has been FINISHED."
Beatrice: "Inside the closet! Under the desk! Behind the curtains!!"
Dlanor: "A check of that place has been FINISHED. Check FINISHED. Check FINISHED."
Beatrice: "Behind the bookshelf, behind the closet, under the carpet, under the floor, above the ceiling, behind the wallpaper, inside the sofa, inside the chair, inside the bed, inside the blankets, inside the walls, inside a rock, inside a stone, inside the room!!"
Dlanor: "CheckFINISHED checkFINISHED checkFINISHED checkcheckcheck FINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHED checkcheckcheckcheckcheckcheckcheckcheck FINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHED FINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHEDFINISHED <Die>! <Sentence>! <Great>!!"
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maximilianjenus



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:13 pm Reply with quote
since I have not read the manga up to this point, to me it sounds like they botched it; there should be a balance of the island narrative and the meta world; natushi's motives should come clear and as a doimno, how they affect the rest of the family, like why eva was sealing doors. if that's he case the review can be pretty fair.
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MCAL



Joined: 11 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:36 pm Reply with quote
maximilianjenus wrote:
since I have not read the manga up to this point, to me it sounds like they botched it; there should be a balance of the island narrative and the meta world; natushi's motives should come clear and as a doimno, how they affect the rest of the family, like why eva was sealing doors. if that's he case the review can be pretty fair.
I can't remember the VN completely, but the manga is pretty much a scene for scene adaption so far. It's more of a case of differing opinions here.
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ThatGuyWhoLikesThings



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:53 pm Reply with quote
MCAL wrote:
maximilianjenus wrote:
since I have not read the manga up to this point, to me it sounds like they botched it; there should be a balance of the island narrative and the meta world; natushi's motives should come clear and as a doimno, how they affect the rest of the family, like why eva was sealing doors. if that's he case the review can be pretty fair.
I can't remember the VN completely, but the manga is pretty much a scene for scene adaption so far. It's more of a case of differing opinions here.


Not everything was adapted, but most of the stuff that was cut wasn't especially important iirc.
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jr240483



Joined: 24 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:54 am Reply with quote
ThatGuyWhoLikesThings wrote:
Joa wrote:
No, in the manga version of Episode spoiler[7] they straight up say how everything was done. HUGE SPOILERS-> spoiler[You probably haven't read it since it isn't translated yet, but in the manga Will says how all the crimes were committed, instead of the cryptic "Illusions to illusions" thing in the VN]


Ah, you're talking about the spoiler[crimes specifically]. I didn't make it clear, but I was more talking about spoiler[Sayo Yasuda's] motivations and the gritty details of their backstory and how they aren't stated explicitly at that point, as well as how spoiler[7 displays them through a fantastical and optimistic though still very somber lens, whereas 8's take on it is decidedly more raw, fatalistic, and cynical.]


just be glad they never made an anime version of umineko. considering how dark higurashi was, it would be almost impossible to make this series adapted into an anime series.

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What clues we get about the overall story are good. Translation reads especially well.


personally those positives should be good enough to at least warrant the grade at least bumped to a B- or a C+. sure its the weakest of the volumes but its still decent enough and those clues really at least allow the reader to finally put in the storyline in order considering how confusing the when they cry series can be at times.

it haven't lost any of its appeal. yet.
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maxwell3094



Joined: 28 Mar 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:27 am Reply with quote
They did make an anime for Umineko. I uh...I wouldn't exactly recommend it though. Even ignoring how much of a poor adaptation it was the real deal breaker is that it stops at the end of the question arcs.
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Joe Mello



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:52 pm Reply with quote
Just from the tone, I have to imagine this review is coming from a person who has only read up to this book in the series. That's not a bad nor good thing (it's probably a preferred POV), but it would explain why a lot of the negative critiques in this thread have been from people who have most likely read to the end.

maxwell3094 wrote:
They did make an anime for Umineko. I uh...I wouldn't exactly recommend it though.

It was a dumb show, but endearing because of how earnest it was and that it ended up not outstaying its welcome. It's worth a watch with friends just for the riff factor.
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