Forum - View topicINTEREST: Anti-War Novelist, Tokyo University Professor Discuss Conflicting Morals In Gundam
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JohnRhogan
Posts: 164 |
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I'm against wars myself, but I have an interest in weapons from the Cold War. Probably due to MGS3: Snake Eater.
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Hoppy800
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That's an interesting take.
I always had an interest in attack and utility helicopters since i was little due to Avenger, M.A.S.H reruns, and the Strike series, same with tanks. I still have that old Micro Machines military helicopters as well. |
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Yttrbio
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"War is terrible but also super-cool to look at" has always been Gundam's core message. It's hardly inadvertent.
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The Not so Chosen One
Posts: 433 |
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"Why the need for so much gruesome, graphic violence? Why not let us imagine a little bit?"
"Because it's so much fun, Jan!" -Quentin Tarantino. |
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tintor2
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The need for marketing explored in Gundam Sousei already said that Tomino and the rest want to sell toys with Gundam
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RockSplash
Posts: 495 |
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People always do this with creative or executive ideas. There is this assumption that if you are a creative, you will only be in it for art and recognition. On the other hand, if you are in Marketing, merchandising, producing, or any other higher business role in a franchise, you are solely in it for money. I feel like Tomino and others can both have a strong message, but would not mind having a pay check to go along with that. It's seen as negative, but I really feel a lot of directors, designers, and writers would not do their work if not properly compensated. Similarly, there are producers who genuinely want to help and support the writer, such as a ceo who stopped a creator from completing changing their characters because they failed focus testing. The creator was Craig McCracken. |
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Beatdigga
 Posts: 4367 Location: New York |
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There’s always a conflict between awe at technology and horror at its use against humans. Reminds me of an Onion article - “Avid pacifist forced to admit .50 cal sniper rifles looks pretty cool.”
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SHD
Posts: 1752 |
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Gundam 0080 has a pretty good take on this, perhaps the only Gundam show that truly does - it shows kids treating war and mechs as cool and exciting, then war comes to the backyard of one particular kid. The show's last scene - spoiler[when the kids listen to the end of the war being announced, Al is crying about having lost his friend to war and the others, misunderstanding the situation, tell him "Don't cry, surely there will be another war soon!"] - is (in)famous of being like a punch in the gut.
.....and then Bandai released an entire line of toys based on it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
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Greed1914
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True enough. Space travel, mechs, and other things that get the imagination going are a conscious choice, and there are definitely more ground and/or mundane ways to depict it that wouldn't come with a wow factor that led to Gundam becoming the merchandising behemoth that it is. |
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Clover_Zero
Posts: 23 |
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I've read the manga adaptation of "The Unwomanly Face of War" and I gotta admit, I can see why it can be described as "military moe" due to its art style leaning towards moe (but also rough, in a good way), but to me, it doesn't hurt any less nonetheless. Some chapters were hard to read and I cried at some. I found out about the book from it too.
I agree about that. The writer of "The Unwomanly Face of War" showed just how hard it was to even get that book published because almost nobody was interested in females' recount of war. It's sad. We need more. |
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LightningComet
Posts: 48 |
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0080 does indeed stand out by really going for the perspective of a naive civilian who is broken by the end. In terms of circumventing the problem of making war look/feel cool, though, I think Tomino had a good idea with (I'm not kidding) G-Reco. It still has the same problems of (among other things) ultimately selling merchandise and thus being problematic, but it goes out of its way to be told as incomprehensibly as possible to subvert the very nature of a "war story". The show deliberately breaks as many cardinal rules of film-making as possible; it was like Tomino throwing a bucket of ice-cold water at fans of his franchise, saying "You shouldn't have been enjoying such an enjoyable show! It runs counter to everything I was trying to say! And... please buy our toys to support us so we can bring more good shows to you." |
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Spider3PO
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When I was a kid, I can't even recall thinking about what a real life war had been like. But I'd been punched, so I knew I didn't care for violence in real life. It's not on the same scale, that's obvious. I'm just saying that even at a young age people can seperate what they like in reality vs fiction. So despite thinking that fighting in real life sucks, I did still think it was cool in all the media I consumed. None of it made me want to take on a profession where I had to use force or was at high risk of violent encounters. Now I don't doubt some kids see something on TV, a game or in a comic that makes them think - yeah, I want to be a soldier, nurse, or whatever. But the way this professor frames it in his hot take, you'd think every kid grows up to be pro-war cause they thought it was cool in the fiction they watched. That they'd all choose dangerous professions. Or root for their country if their nation goes to war. It's ridiculous. Besides, when you hear of real life tragedies (such as war) vs fictional ones, it hits differently. Most will develop morals, know pain, and eventually experience loss creating an ability to empathize. If we didn't understand why war sucks as young people, it'll become clear when we're older. As for that forbidden door... There are stories that kids are either not ready for or in some cases contain a message of bad morals/ethics. But I don't think Gundam fits that description. Maybe I'm wrong though. I haven't seen a Gundam anime in nearly a decade. |
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zalminar
Posts: 36 |
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Eh, I don't know if it really "stands out" in that regard; Amuro and Uso end up pretty emotionally broken over the course of their stories. 0080 does hit the "kids think war is cool but they don't really know" thing much more explicitly, and it's a much tighter story, but I think people forget or underplay the emotional horror of the original MSG--everyone from Bright to Fraw is telling Amuro to man up and keep killing people (often hitting him when he won't keep killing), he frequently can't eat or sleep or just goes catatonic, and after everything he's been through he meets his mother and she's just disappointed in him for all the things he's had to do to survive.
This is also commonly said about Victory; which is to say I think Tomino is just weird and unconventional in general; he's always throwing buckets of cold water on fan expectations. Remember that this is the person who decided to culminate the epic rivalry between Amuro and Char with Amuro's Gundam cradling the Sazabi's cockpit while Char blurts out a non-sequiter about his mother issues and Amuro is just bewildered--and then they're consumed by psychic space-magic. Victory's climax features the slapstick death of the series' Char-clone, smash cut to the eycatch featuring a haro with Mickey Mouse ears, cut back to Shakti musing on the nature of sin. Turn A prominantely features the giant death-robot being used to transport livestock and do laundry.
I'm not an expert on Tomino's stated intentions, but I don't actually think "war is bad" is the main thing he wanted to say. He's always struck me (at least in his Gundam works) as much more interested in hope, communication, and understanding. The grim horrors of war are tied deeply into how he conceives of those ideas, and I think he's interested generally in a certain kind of realism, but I don't think those aspects provide an adequate encapsulation of his work. Both "cool robots" and "war is hell" were mediums he used to convey his ideas, neither was the message in itself. |
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DRosencraft
Posts: 665 |
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There is an inevitable counter-intuitive angle that will show through. Generally you will want to tell the story of a war from the perspective of the ones fighting. There will invariably be a side that is deemed "right" or "just" and viewers tend to balk at any show that tries to play the "both sides" game. So, one side will be shown to be in the right, therefore will, even if inadvertent or unconsciously, become the "hero" that everyone is rooting for. As an outlay of that, everything associated with that hero character will tend to be viewed as "cool" or 'right" and that invariably shades the message. To the extent the series then does play that "both sides" card and shows a sympathetic angle of the other side, it makes it then okay to no hate everything associated with them.
This all then directed towards an audience already predisposed to think military tech is cool, and will therefore gravitate to the aspects they think are cool, at some expense to the message being conveyed. The necessary components to make a good story that sells enough to get play and attention are inherently the components that will undermine that message. It's all about balancing the two forces as much as possible. Last edited by DRosencraft on Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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xxmsxx
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I have read the manga adaptation of The Unwomanly Face of War and I do not see the moe aspect at all. It is really interesting they brought it up. Now I am going to go back and read it again to see what they really talking about. I also found the adaptation compelling and engaging in its own way. We need more of this. |
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