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REVIEW: My Hero Academia - GN 12


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Snakebit1995



Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 822
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 10:09 am Reply with quote
I don't like VOL 12 all that much. Everything post Vol 11 for me hasn't been very good, the series has struggled to meet up to that high of All Might and All for One in any remote way. I understand that a bit since that was clearly the first major climax, but the series has been so weak that it doesn't match up. This Liscens exam arc isn't very good and the arc that comes after this is IMO the worst arc in the series so far.

The only thing I like about Vol 12 is the introduction of Miss Joke cause she's a fun foil with Aizawa in a loud but sweet way where you know they have that special friendship even if it's not expressed. Even though Aizawa has a similar relationship with Mic there's something more interesting about that similar relationship with Joke (I love the gum gag she tries on him)

But yeah, I totally agree with Nick, I'm not normally they kind of guy who says stuff like this, but the way MHA is treating the female cast is a serious disservice, especially when it started out giving girls like Ochako and Momo a lot of shine in terms of skill. A girl hasn't been seriously relevant in a combat situation since Momo's test against Aizawa with Todoroki.

I know Shounen are traditionally aimed at boys, but IDK what Jump series specifically have agaisnt letting girls be cool and badass two. Fairy Tail gets a lot of shit, but never in that series did I feel like the girls with significantly inferior to the guys. Lucy, Erza, Wendy, Mira, Cana, etc would all kick you ass just as hard as Natsu, Gray or Gajeel, that's what made them cool, they looked pretty but they were just as badass as the guys when push came to shove.

Compare that to a series like One Piece, or now MHA and the female cast either feel inept half the time, or are just eye candy. Robin, a woman who was a trained assassin, mind you, hasn't had a true proper one on one fight in One Piece since Skypeia, Nami has had one or two in the whole run, etc.

The only Jump series I feel isn't doing this right now is actually Black Clover, where Noelle, while not a combat marvel, doesn't mess around and is treated like a serious character, yeah she's crushing on MC, but that's not her sole defining character. Compare that to Ochako who went from someone serious and has rapidly devolved into "OMG I <3 Deku! BLUSH!"

I'm not some hyper feminist thing, I just want the interesting characters in Shounen to do interesting shit. I'm just disappointed that a series like My Hero which showed such promise for these things at the start has so rapidly degraded into the Shounen mold.
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GoldCrusader



Joined: 25 Apr 2017
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 10:34 am Reply with quote
I really like this volume. I love how we see all the previous events affect Deku. From him acknowledging his injuries and littelraly switching his fighting style and gears to something fitting him more. Also this arc giving Todoroki and Bakugo so much developpment yet again, while introducing so many cool new characters.

I personnally really like how MHA handle post-AFO stuff and how it deal with the various theme of heroes and villains and how it affects them. Horikoshi is easily of of JUMP best authors. Some of my favorite moments are right after this, I'm always excited to re-read all these chapters.

As for the whole girl stuff it never actually bothered me. I find the way girls are treated ok for my personnal tastes. Could we get more moments? Sure. Would it suddenly make me enjoy the series more? Not at all. I like all the characters in MHA and I'll probably like whatever arc they'll get features in. The focus on the boys is all dandy with me because they are the whole reason I enjoy the series so much. Having these popular guys be the focus makes me always happy. Kirishima got such an amazing arc.

I really wish the more recent new JUMP series clicked more with me, because ever since Kimetsu none of the new series really stood out as my own personnal true favorites. Wishing a new series with that MHA magic hits me once again and doesn't get cancelled lol.
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Replica_Rabbit



Joined: 23 Aug 2015
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Location: Portland
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 3:06 pm Reply with quote
Snakebit1995 wrote:

I know Shounen are traditionally aimed at boys, but IDK what Jump series specifically have agaisnt letting girls be cool and badass two. Fairy Tail gets a lot of shit, but never in that series did I feel like the girls with significantly inferior to the guys. Lucy, Erza, Wendy, Mira, Cana, etc would all kick you ass just as hard as Natsu, Gray or Gajeel, that's what made them cool, they looked pretty but they were just as badass as the guys when push came to shove.

Compare that to a series like One Piece, or now MHA and the female cast either feel inept half the time, or are just eye candy. Robin, a woman who was a trained assassin, mind you, hasn't had a true proper one on one fight in One Piece since Skypeia, Nami has had one or two in the whole run, etc.

The only Jump series I feel isn't doing this right now is actually Black Clover, where Noelle, while not a combat marvel, doesn't mess around and is treated like a serious character, yeah she's crushing on MC, but that's not her sole defining character. Compare that to Ochako who went from someone serious and has rapidly devolved into "OMG I <3 Deku! BLUSH!"

Nah, Fairy Tail isn't great at it. Before the time skip it was good, but after the time skip, Erza and the other girls become more eye candy and mainly talk about there crushes. All of Lucy fights after the time skip was cut off or someone have to save her. Erza fights just become lazy (because I'm Erza) and put her in a sexy pose when she being torture. And Wendy became an idol that has old man lusting at her. (Lisanna did nothing)
I guess you never read World Trigger or The Promised Neverland or Dr. Stone (also Food Wars! sometimes). Noelle is good, but Chika, Erina, Emma, and Kohaku are better. The Ochako thing is more of character development, she hasn't been OMG Deku since this arc (That better than Erza OMG Jellal.) The Overhaul arc has a lot of shortcomings, I think Kohei over stuff the arc with new characters and wasn't able to fit everyone in correctly and it was the longest arc in MHA.
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Marakutanay



Joined: 21 Mar 2017
Posts: 19
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 3:27 pm Reply with quote
The whole Boys > Girls becomes evident when you take a look at their Quirks. Who would you rather watch fight? The boys who have super strengh or speed, make explosions, throw fire, ice or electricity, or the girls who are invisible, create stuff, jump very high or have a long tongue? Let's face it, the boys got all the flashy Quirks and the girls got support ones; guess that Ashido could be considered flashy but I don't see her melting someone face.

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Snakebit1995



Joined: 25 Apr 2015
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 3:28 pm Reply with quote
Replica_Rabbit wrote:

Nah, Fairy Tail isn't great at it. Before the time skip it was good, but after the time skip, Erza and the other girls become more eye candy and mainly talk about there crushes. All of Lucy fights after the time skip was cut off or someone have to save her. Erza fights just become lazy (because I'm Erza) and put her in a sexy pose when she being torture. And Wendy became an idol that has old man lusting at her. (Lisanna did nothing)
I guess you never read World Trigger or The Promised Neverland or Dr. Stone (also Food Wars! sometimes). Noelle is good, but Chika, Erina, Emma, and Kohaku are better. The Ochako thing is more of character development, she hasn't been OMG Deku since this arc (That better than Erza OMG Jellal.) The Overhaul arc has a lot of shortcomings, I think Kohei over stuff the arc with new characters and wasn't able to fit everyone in correctly and it was the longest arc in MHA.


I've actually read all of those but World Trigger. Emma is great, and Kohaku is alright (though she's held back by the relative youth of her series and it's non-combative approach). Erina is complicated since her evolution as a character is tied to her will to fight back, and I also worry cause where the manga just wrapped up an arc she was at a dangerous precipice of having too much of her confidence linked to Soma.

I will still say I thought the girls in Fairy Tail were fine and a better step in terms of female involvement than most series like One Piece or Naruto where most girls, good or evil, are mostly pushed to a sideline. While I agree that Erza did become a bit dependent on Jellal in terms of character growth what I was referring to was how her and Mira have respect, the series both shows and tells you they're strong, Natsu and Gray respect them, you don't mess around with these two they get taken seriously (Hence why Tartarous makes a point to separate them from the guild in their arc), etc.

I still think Ochako's character has really degraded since her exam with Aoyama, she's become very distilled into her relationship with Deku and not in a good way, to a similar vein of what happened in terms of Erza and Jellal. But with the later I didn't feel like Erza became a significantly weaker as a character, she still had a lot of interesting qualities, Ochako has become very flat and very Deku-centric IMO, what happened to all that stuff about her family, her gung ho attitude, there's literal a scene after this arc where spoiler[She says how she wants to be a great hero to stand on the same level as Deku].

And again look at what's happened in some of her recent stuff, Fight's 13 with Aoyama, comes back to her crush on Deku, her fight with Toga talking about Deku, this manga Vol picks again at her and Deku's relationship during a fight. I'm seeing an unhealthy pattern forming, a lot of her character and screen time is being spent talking about Deku and how she feels about him.

Also I have no idea what you're talking about in Wendy becoming eye candy for an old man (Are you talking about Mest cause that's usually played as a joke and not serious). But I actually thought Wendy was a good depiction of a girl growing up from her intro till the end, she started out scared and alone and grew into her powers by learning from the strong women around her grew into a strong confident young lady who was stepping up and not hiding in fear anymore.

Comparing again to Ochako, she studied under strong Pros but outside of learning new moves for a fight (That we've seen once) I don't feel like she's grown as a person, where as I felt like Wendy was growing both as a wizard and as a person across her character arc in Fairy Tail.

This is just me talking now but I'd really love to see something with Ochako and Midnight, so that she can learn not only how to be a strong hero, but a strong woman as well, I think that'd be cool and give her character some needed growth in a way that doesn't have to be connected to Deku.
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BaronViolet



Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:08 pm Reply with quote
Ok. I was afraid my hero would drop in quality, but I should not be surprised. Every shonen series loses its luster after a few years running. It happened to DB, Naruto, Bleach and OP. Did you think MHA would maintain its quality forever?

ALso, as far as female treatment between fairy and hero, I think hero handles the women better. Ok, maybe they don't have many prominent roles, but at least they aren't treated like fanservice, unlike the girls in fairy. Have you seen the "romance between gray and Juvia? it is just as toxic as Joker and Harley.

While I have not read the other volumes (up t volume 12) I don't think the series has gotten as bad as you are making it out to be.
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GoldCrusader



Joined: 25 Apr 2017
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:10 pm Reply with quote
Snakebit1995 wrote:


Comparing again to Ochako, she studied under strong Pros but outside of learning new moves for a fight (That we've seen once) I don't feel like she's grown as a person, where as I felt like Wendy was growing both as a wizard and as a person across her character arc in Fairy Tail.

This is just me talking now but I'd really love to see something with Ochako and Midnight, so that she can learn not only how to be a strong hero, but a strong woman as well, I think that'd be cool and give her character some needed growth in a way that doesn't have to be connected to Deku.

I mean

1. You are comparing a character that got over 60 volumes worth of time to developp vs MHA which is at 18?

2. Ochako also showed countless time that she is a great character and I really don't see why her love/admiration of Deku as something negative. Any girl her age would react the way she did of we talked about their crush. It's completely normal. She also didn't abuse this *omg stop* reaction. It happened like what three times? Deku did too. They are high school kids after all. You also like to use fairy tail as a good example, but how many times did Juvia and Lucy went all blushy when near Natsu and Gray? didn't those get tiring?

It is also clear her admiration for Deku is what drives her along with her goal to help her parents. I think she a perfectly good character.

BaronViolet wrote:
Ok. I was afraid my hero would drop in quality, but I should not be surprised. Every shonen series loses its luster after a few years running.

While I have not read the other volumes (up t volume 12) I don't think the series has gotten as bad as you are making it out to be.


That's because it didn't drop in quality. The series is as strong as ever. It just gave us one of its best arc imo.

Each volume is selling amazing, and now even better, it does well in the rankings, it has tons of merch.

This is one poster's opinion don't think too much about it.
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Replica_Rabbit



Joined: 23 Aug 2015
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Location: Portland
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 5:18 pm Reply with quote
Snakebit1995 wrote:

I've actually read all of those but World Trigger. Emma is great, and Kohaku is alright (though she's held back by the relative youth of her series and it's non-combative approach). Erina is complicated since her evolution as a character is tied to her will to fight back, and I also worry cause where the manga just wrapped up an arc she was at a dangerous precipice of having too much of her confidence linked to Soma.

I will still say I thought the girls in Fairy Tail were fine and a better step in terms of female involvement than most series like One Piece or Naruto where most girls, good or evil, are mostly pushed to a sideline. While I agree that Erza did become a bit dependent on Jellal in terms of character growth what I was referring to was how her and Mira have respect, the series both shows and tells you they're strong, Natsu and Gray respect them, you don't mess around with these two they get taken seriously (Hence why Tartarous makes a point to separate them from the guild in their arc), etc.

I still think Ochako's character has really degraded since her exam with Aoyama, she's become very distilled into her relationship with Deku and not in a good way, to a similar vein of what happened in terms of Erza and Jellal. But with the later I didn't feel like Erza became a significantly weaker as a character, she still had a lot of interesting qualities, Ochako has become very flat and very Deku-centric IMO, what happened to all that stuff about her family, her gung ho attitude, there's literal a scene after this arc where spoiler[She says how she wants to be a great hero to stand on the same level as Deku].

And again look at what's happened in some of her recent stuff, Fight's 13 with Aoyama, comes back to her crush on Deku, her fight with Toga talking about Deku, this manga Vol picks again at her and Deku's relationship during a fight. I'm seeing an unhealthy pattern forming, a lot of her character and screen time is being spent talking about Deku and how she feels about him.

Also I have no idea what you're talking about in Wendy becoming eye candy for an old man (Are you talking about Mest cause that's usually played as a joke and not serious). But I actually thought Wendy was a good depiction of a girl growing up from her intro till the end, she started out scared and alone and grew into her powers by learning from the strong women around her grew into a strong confident young lady who was stepping up and not hiding in fear anymore.

Comparing again to Ochako, she studied under strong Pros but outside of learning new moves for a fight (That we've seen once) I don't feel like she's grown as a person, where as I felt like Wendy was growing both as a wizard and as a person across her character arc in Fairy Tail.

This is just me talking now but I'd really love to see something with Ochako and Midnight, so that she can learn not only how to be a strong hero, but a strong woman as well, I think that'd be cool and give her character some needed growth in a way that doesn't have to be connected to Deku.

World Trigger is good (it take a little time to get started). I believe it has the best female (combat wise) characters in Jump. You don't have to worry about Erine, the confidence is linked with her friends not just Soma. I feel they have a Sasuke and Naruto (I guess it turned into a Yuno and Asta) type of rival.
I think Fairy Tail female character was downgraded, they are used for eye candy way more then MHA. Like the time spoiler[When Erza's mother take over Wendy's body and she was checking her boobs out] they fight more but their fights are basely Nami vs Kalifa, good fights but it gets overshadowed with the tons of fan service. I stop liking Erza because of Jellal (I still like Ochako). I lost respect for the female characters as the series kept going, I saw them as eye candy, not character after a while. I have more respect for Nami, she doesn't fight a lot but when it comes down to throw down she brings her A game.
The different between Erza and Ochako is that one is a teenager and the other is an adult, I give Ochako more room to breathe. There also, Erza have more time to shrine, while Ochako has to share screen time with 20+ characters. I believe we will get more on Ochako down the road, but right now he wants to flesh out the other classmate. Wish there were more female students so it wouldn't feel that way. I really enjoy the last arc where we get to see more about Jiro and Ashido. I believe MHA is to an ok job with its female characters, the only time it disappoints me is with Nejire Hado (she the only female character who doesn't have a character).
It the time when she joins Lamia Scale and team up with Sherria to become The Sky Sisters and also the fight between her and Sherria was annoying with that old guy (I think his name was Yajim) and most of the male members of fairy tail lusting at them. (if I wanted that, I would watch Sanji on a loop)
I do believe Ochako and the female characters of MHA will more time to shrine. I still fate in MHA. If MHA was in chapter 300 and this still happening then I'll be upset
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BodaciousSpacePirate
It's Over 9000!It's Over 9000!


Joined: 17 Apr 2015
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 10:33 pm Reply with quote
Snakebit1995 wrote:
My point that there's continued mistreatment of the female cast is not a spoiler, I never said what happened just that something happened to them that bothered me, that's not a spoiler. But since I want to be clear since some people aren't sure I'll be specific here and tag it spoiler[ I'm talking about how in the OVerhaul arc, at the very start ALL FOUR Female members of the assault force are written into a fight outside the main house. They are not seen again for the entire arc only to cut back to the final move of that fight right as the arc is ending. So not only were they pushed off screen, we barely even see their fight we maybe see 10% of it, instead time is devoted exclusively to the male cast here, if that's not a little insulting to a female cast of characters, i don't know what it.]


I didn't find it insulting at all. We don't need to see how every single character's fight plays out (this isn't Bleach), only the ones that are central to each arc's set-up. Plus, in the past month of BHA, we've gotten back-to-back spoiler[Jiro] and spoiler[Ragdoll] story beats, the return of spoiler[Nejire, Ochako, and Tsuyu's] employer, and a new spoiler[sassy Top 10 Pro Hero gyaru bunny lady]! If you only care about the character's page counts during the big fights, then sure, Fairy Tail focused on the women a lot more, but that's not why I read BHA, and honestly it wasn't why I read Fairy Tail, either.
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Tirol Choco



Joined: 16 May 2018
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 11:05 pm Reply with quote
@Snakebit1995
Your persistent need to belittle MHA at every turn is commendable I'll give you that but calling the series "a disservice to female characters" while bringing up Fairy Tail is hilarious especially when its a perfect example of why having female characters active in battle do not make them good characters. Erza rivals Sakura as being the worst female character in modern shounen just thanks to her blatant Mary Sue tendencies, everyone else can be described as "boobs" when they fight Mashima makes sure that their clothes come off at every convience because that's female empowerment. Ochako hasn't had Deku on her mind for a while now and fact she just came upon a revelation recently with her original motivation for being a hero. Noelle is still very much a generic tsundere but if one fight is enough to make you turn around to her then Sakura would be a lot more well liked than she is.

People always seem to missed the fact that in the latest arc spoiler[the female team managed to accomplish their objective and save the males in the end. Toga manages to take down two heroes by herself by fighting smart. And while a flashback Mina manages to save two students from a villian while Kirishima does nothing but watch scared. ] If anycase complaining about female representation in shounen gets you no where because its ultimately a comic read for young boys and believe it or not girls don't give a damn about representation or not because they're reading it for the hot guys. Critically acclaimed series like Yuyu Hakusho and Hunter x Hunter barely have any female representation and the majority don't even fight, FMA is also a series without any strong female focus despite how well handed the few of them are (Liza is mainly support for Roy and Winry is a love interest) there's even an entire sequence where two strong female characters sit on the sidelines and watch two males beat up the badguy as they commentate. It just goes to show that people only ever bring up lack of female focus in shounen just to complain about nothing.
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FireballDragon



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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 11:29 pm Reply with quote
As awkward as Horikoshi is at writing females, it could still be worse.

He could be Tsugumi Ohba.

Don't get me wrong, I love the guy's works, but his writing can often times come across as a bit too ham-handed and yes, pretty damn misogynistic.

Sure, maybe Uraraka's focus on Deku might be a bit overplayed, but at least it's not like Misa devoting her entire life to Light Yagami.

Also, at least MHA has never said shit like "Men have dreams that women will never be able to understand." It's as if Ohba's mind is still stuck in the damn Showa Era, geez.


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Tirol Choco



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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 11:33 pm Reply with quote
FireballDragon wrote:
As awkward as Horikoshi is at writing females, it could still be worse.

He could be Tsumugi Ohba.

Don't get me wrong, I love the guy's works, but his writing can often times come across as a bit too ham-handed and yes, pretty damn misogynistic.

Sure, maybe Uraraka's focus on Deku might be a bit overplayed, but at least it's not like Misa devoting her entire life to Light Yagami.

Also, at least MHA has never said shit like "Men have dreams that women will never be able to understand." It's as if Ohba's mind is still stuck in the damn Showa Era, geez.

Tell me about. It took him years to finally write an acceptable female lead and it just so happens to be in his worst work Platinum End. That aside I don't think Horikoshi is necessarily awkward with it but he's been taking his time with gradually developing his cast and his habit for skipping battles is something he does for both males and females to a frustrating degree
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Snakebit1995



Joined: 25 Apr 2015
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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 5:48 am Reply with quote
Tirol Choco wrote:
@Snakebit1995
Your persistent need to belittle MHA at every turn is commendable I'll give you that but calling the series "a disservice to female characters" while bringing up Fairy Tail is hilarious especially when its a perfect example of why having female characters active in battle do not make them good characters. Erza rivals Sakura as being the worst female character in modern shounen just thanks to her blatant Mary Sue tendencies, everyone else can be described as "boobs" when they fight Mashima makes sure that their clothes come off at every convience because that's female empowerment. Ochako hasn't had Deku on her mind for a while now and fact she just came upon a revelation recently with her original motivation for being a hero. Noelle is still very much a generic tsundere but if one fight is enough to make you turn around to her then Sakura would be a lot more well liked than she is.

People always seem to missed the fact that in the latest arc spoiler[the female team managed to accomplish their objective and save the males in the end. Toga manages to take down two heroes by herself by fighting smart. And while a flashback Mina manages to save two students from a villian while Kirishima does nothing but watch scared. ] If anycase complaining about female representation in shounen gets you no where because its ultimately a comic read for young boys and believe it or not girls don't give a damn about representation or not because they're reading it for the hot guys. Critically acclaimed series like Yuyu Hakusho and Hunter x Hunter barely have any female representation and the majority don't even fight, FMA is also a series without any strong female focus despite how well handed the few of them are (Liza is mainly support for Roy and Winry is a love interest) there's even an entire sequence where two strong female characters sit on the sidelines and watch two males beat up the badguy as they commentate. It just goes to show that people only ever bring up lack of female focus in shounen just to complain about nothing.


I don’t have some goal to belittle the series I just don’t think it’s been very good as of late. I like MHA and I did for a while but lately the series has made rescissions I find very unsatisfying and hampering my enjoyment

I’m not saying we need to see every fight but it is weird that it’s only the girls fight that is seemingly cut for time, just cause YYH and HxH have low female representation and high acclaim doesn’t mean that’s fair (both are also written by an author who’s from an older school of Shounen)

Females just sitting on the sideline commentating isn’t interesting as it is if their down in the trenches fighting too. That’s what I bring up when I talk about Fairy Tail, a majority of the female cast was getting involved in fights and not just standing in the corner providing some motivational support.

Just cause it’s for young boys isn’t an excuse to write a weak story. Boys can find a strong girl cool too. I hate that people keep using that as some excuse not to progress the medium and down interesting things with new characters.
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Replica_Rabbit



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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 7:31 pm Reply with quote
@Snakebit1995
Quote:
What I want is for Authors to stop wasting my time with side casts if they're just gonna short change them all the damn time, and I feel like this is what's happening to the MHA side casts, they get these plots set up and then the payoff is lazy or unsatisfying.

My Hero Academia is a newer Shonen series with a big cast. The characters you don't like are characters other people like. The Mangaka isn't wasting time with them. It the same thing Fairy Tail do, but you don't have a problem with it because you also like the popular characters. (Lisanna or Evergreen anyone?)
Anyway, I think the Mangaka know he didn't use all his characters correctly in the last arc. In the recent chapter where spoiler[Ryukyu drop a rank] and he tries to showcase spoiler[Nejire] in the last arc. If he didn't care, he wouldn't done that. I still think MHA female character is not lost cause yet, there still time for them to shrine. Also, Fairy Tail has 371 chapters and Dragon Ball Z have 336 chapters more than MHA. It has a long way to go
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Snakebit1995



Joined: 25 Apr 2015
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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 7:54 pm Reply with quote
Replica_Rabbit wrote:
@Snakebit1995
Quote:
What I want is for Authors to stop wasting my time with side casts if they're just gonna short change them all the damn time, and I feel like this is what's happening to the MHA side casts, they get these plots set up and then the payoff is lazy or unsatisfying.

My Hero Academia is a newer Shonen series with a big cast. The characters you don't like are characters other people like. The Mangaka isn't wasting time with them. It the same thing Fairy Tail do, but you don't have a problem with it because you also like the popular characters. (Lisanna or Evergreen anyone?)
Anyway, I think the Mangaka know he didn't use all his characters correctly in the last arc. In the recent chapter where spoiler[Ryukyu drop a rank] and he tries to showcase spoiler[Nejire] in the last arc. If he didn't care, he wouldn't done that. I still think MHA female character is not lost cause yet, there still time for them to shrine. Also, Fairy Tail has 371 chapters and Dragon Ball Z have 336 chapters more than MHA. It has a long way to go


I don't think the females are a lost cause right now, just that as of late they haven't been looking great.
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