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Final Fantasy XIV is the Best Final Fantasy Game


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#904116



Joined: 17 Jan 2020
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:08 pm Reply with quote
I'm so glad to see this game getting covered here, and with such a bold claim. A claim that I agree with so just came here to show my love. FFXIV is fantastic. I got the shadowbringers art book for xmas this year. Anime smallmouth
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AiddonValentine



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 1868
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:12 pm Reply with quote
I think a lot of the reason XIV has been so successful is because it has a different voice than most FF's over the past twenty years. FF since X has basically been defined by the same three guys: Kitase, Nomura, and Nojima. And even when they were not directly on production, they still got a major say in the games' direction which has led to a ton of stagnation and problems. When you have the same guys dictating how a game goes down, there's a lot of rehashing and bad ideas repeating.

It also helps that Yoshida and his team were genuinely FORCED to confront reality with this as the original XIV was a mess so hit they just hit the reset button and built a new game from the ground up. When you're tasked with fixing a disaster, there's no way you don't come out of that with major self-awareness.

And even outside of that, Yoshida has very influences. His idol is Yasumi Matsuno who is more about political allegory, societal/historical commentary, and dismantling of well-worn ideas (no wonder people like Kitase freaked out with XII, leading to its misguided overhaul) so he clearly likes pushing limits and isn't afraid of making some (stupid) people angry.

This is the major reason why I'm so interested in FFXVI, even if Yoshida is just producing it (probably having taken one look at the mess of FF dev cycles over the last twenty years and rightfully thinking "Ha ha ha, do you think I'm a moron!?"). This is the first time we've gotten a new voice in FF so we're going in with new perspective and influences, whether it's the heavily Vagrant Story look to it or the combat clearly going Devil May Cry (down to having one of DMC5's combat designers!). It's actually gotten me excited for FF for the first time in years
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AmpersandsUnited



Joined: 22 Mar 2012
Posts: 311
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:30 pm Reply with quote
AiddonValentine wrote:
I think a lot of the reason XIV has been so successful is because it has a different voice than most FF's over the past twenty years. FF since X has basically been defined by the same three guys: Kitase, Nomura, and Nojima. And even when they were not directly on production, they still got a major say in the games' direction which has led to a ton of stagnation and problems. When you have the same guys dictating how a game goes down, there's a lot of rehashing and bad ideas repeating.


I mean, FF14 is quite literally the definition of rehashing and repeating. Almost everything is directly lifted from previous games, from main characters to stories. Or mechanically from games like World of Warcraft or Dark Age of Camelot.

14 is certainly at its best when it's doing its own thing and lore, but that's pretty rare. You can't really praise them for Return to Ivalice when they're literally just retelling you FFT and FF12's story and characters and the credit belongs to those games and writers.
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phia_one



Joined: 15 Jan 2012
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Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:02 pm Reply with quote
The only MMO I've played is ESO, but I've considered playing FFXIV. It sounds and looks cool, but TBH the only FF games I really enjoyed were X and XII.
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#904116



Joined: 17 Jan 2020
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:08 pm Reply with quote
AmpersandsUnited wrote:
AiddonValentine wrote:
I think a lot of the reason XIV has been so successful is because it has a different voice than most FF's over the past twenty years. FF since X has basically been defined by the same three guys: Kitase, Nomura, and Nojima. And even when they were not directly on production, they still got a major say in the games' direction which has led to a ton of stagnation and problems. When you have the same guys dictating how a game goes down, there's a lot of rehashing and bad ideas repeating.


I mean, FF14 is quite literally the definition of rehashing and repeating. Almost everything is directly lifted from previous games, from main characters to stories. Or mechanically from games like World of Warcraft or Dark Age of Camelot.

14 is certainly at its best when it's doing its own thing and lore, but that's pretty rare. You can't really praise them for Return to Ivalice when they're literally just retelling you FFT and FF12's story and characters and the credit belongs to those games and writers.

I think that is a massive oversimplification and exaggeration. I would say MOST of the game is actually unique and not a rehash. Your first point, characters: The entire scions of the seventh dawn are all original characters. Every villain thus far in the MSQ is an original character. All with original designs and outfits. The only rehashing that's done is the same rehashing that EVERY final fantasy does in that it recycles its enemy types and motifs. There's always cactuars, there's always chocobos, summons, etc.

You also mention stories but only mention Return to Ivalice which is one raid story among the 8 raids available in the game. Also, if you mention credit to the original writers, well the original writer was involved with the Return to Ivalice raid. The whole point was that it was deliberately a visit to the FFXII world. But Coils of Bahamut, Crystal Tower, Alexander, Void Ark, Deltascape, and Eden, SIX of the eight raids are all original storylines. LIke i said, some settings are borrowed, like crystal tower, but it's a whole new story.

Also the ENTIRE msq, which is at around 400 hours and counting, and is obviously, the central point is entirely original. Not to mention the entirety of all the class questlines, optional bosses like the Warring Triad or Weapons, and the myriad of sidequests, many of which are self contained original stories like Manderville or the Doman/Ishgard restoration.

That point is correct to a degree. But to say that most of the game is recycled is actually a huge discredit to the FFXIV team.

You also mention mechanically being similar to World of Warcraft. This is true, because World of Warcraft was the template they used to rebuild FFXIV. Yoshida publicly said this and would never refute that. But does that mean that FFXIV can be dismissed as a reskinned Wow? Not in the slightest. The GCD is slower in FFXIV, you can have multiple classes on each character, the storyline doesn't reset every expansion. It just has a similar MMO design skeleton and that is not uncommon in MMO's or in game development in general. And on top of that, there are even blog posts from WoW developers praising what Square is doing with FFXIV and what sets it apart. Look into the WoW battle designer talking about the Thordan fight.
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AmpersandsUnited



Joined: 22 Mar 2012
Posts: 311
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:24 pm Reply with quote
#904116 wrote:
I think that is a massive oversimplification and exaggeration. I would say MOST of the game is actually unique and not a rehash. Your first point, characters: The entire scions of the seventh dawn are all original characters. Every villain thus far in the MSQ is an original character. All with original designs and outfits. The only rehashing that's done is the same rehashing that EVERY final fantasy does in that it recycles its enemy types and motifs. There's always cactuars, there's always chocobos, summons, etc.

You also mention stories but only mention Return to Ivalice which is one raid story among the 8 raids available in the game. Also, if you mention credit to the original writers, well the original writer was involved with the Return to Ivalice raid. The whole point was that it was deliberately a visit to the FFXII world. But Coils of Bahamut, Crystal Tower, Alexander, Void Ark, Deltascape, and Eden, SIX of the eight raids are all original storylines. LIke i said, some settings are borrowed, like crystal tower, but it's a whole new story.

Also the ENTIRE msq, which is at around 400 hours and counting, and is obviously, the central point is entirely original. Not to mention the entirety of all the class questlines, optional bosses like the Warring Triad or Weapons, and the myriad of sidequests, many of which are self contained original stories like Manderville or the Doman/Ishgard restoration.

That point is correct to a degree. But to say that most of the game is recycled is actually a huge discredit to the FFXIV team.


I guess it depends how you define original and to how much of a degree influences play. I disagree with the notion that the Crystal Tower is an "original story". The Cloud of Darkness making a pact with Xande, Amon, Glasya, and Scylla as well as Doga and Unei helping you out are all from Final Fantasy 3, as are most of the bosses in those raids being boss fights in 3. It's the same story and characters, just retooled to fit in 14's world. Sure, the story stuff with Cid, Nero, and Graha are original, but they're just a small part of the overall theme of that Alliance Raid. It's safe to say without Final Fantasy 3, none of it would exist in 14.

Even a lot of the original characters borrow from past games to the point it's impossible to know how things could have played out if those games never existed. For example, all the Garlean legion divisions are themed after their respective number. It's no coincidence the 7th Legion led by Nael was the one to call down a meteor to smite Eorzea like Sephiroth did in Final Fantasy 7. Nor was it a coincidence the 6th Legion led by Regula was the one who went after the Warring Triad and Floating Contenant like the empire did in 6 Or the 12th Legion that invaded Dalmasca, or the fact the Garlean legates are all modeled after Judges from FF12 to begin with. Likewise, it's hard to imagine how Heavensward would look without FF6 or 7 given the endgame is all about the Floating Continent and Warring Triad from 6, or how Thordan and his knights were all modeled after the Knights of the Round from FF7. I could go on but we'd be here all day listing how even the most minor things like the Alchemist job questline being a retelling of Rachel's story from FF6.

There's nothing wrong with being a fanservice game, or a hodgepodge of all the other Final Fantasy games (with a touch of Vagrant Story and Tactics Ogre). I'm not trying to sell 14 short, but I think that's where 14's biggest appeal lies. I enjoy the game myself, I just feel they go overboard with the callbacks a bit to much to the point it often times become the games biggest downfall. The Omega raid tier was my least favorite precisely because it was more or less nothing but pulling random bosses from 5 and 6 and making you fight them for no reason other than callbacks with nothing tying them to the world of 14. We're only fighting Kefka while Dancing Mad plays in the background because he's a popular villain from a past game, not because he ties into the story in any way or fit in the lore. The current Nier stuff is very much the same.
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Megiddo



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 8163
Location: IL
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:33 pm Reply with quote
I'll stick with Tactics, thank you. It's a great game and doesn't stick content behind a monthly subscription.
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Heishi



Joined: 06 Mar 2016
Posts: 1125
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:45 pm Reply with quote
Seeing this article kinda wished someone made an article saying how FF 13 and its sequel are actually quite underrated.
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#904116



Joined: 17 Jan 2020
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:32 pm Reply with quote
AmpersandsUnited wrote:
#904116 wrote:
I think that is a massive oversimplification and exaggeration. I would say MOST of the game is actually unique and not a rehash. Your first point, characters: The entire scions of the seventh dawn are all original characters. Every villain thus far in the MSQ is an original character. All with original designs and outfits. The only rehashing that's done is the same rehashing that EVERY final fantasy does in that it recycles its enemy types and motifs. There's always cactuars, there's always chocobos, summons, etc.

You also mention stories but only mention Return to Ivalice which is one raid story among the 8 raids available in the game. Also, if you mention credit to the original writers, well the original writer was involved with the Return to Ivalice raid. The whole point was that it was deliberately a visit to the FFXII world. But Coils of Bahamut, Crystal Tower, Alexander, Void Ark, Deltascape, and Eden, SIX of the eight raids are all original storylines. LIke i said, some settings are borrowed, like crystal tower, but it's a whole new story.

Also the ENTIRE msq, which is at around 400 hours and counting, and is obviously, the central point is entirely original. Not to mention the entirety of all the class questlines, optional bosses like the Warring Triad or Weapons, and the myriad of sidequests, many of which are self contained original stories like Manderville or the Doman/Ishgard restoration.

That point is correct to a degree. But to say that most of the game is recycled is actually a huge discredit to the FFXIV team.


I guess it depends how you define original and to how much of a degree influences play. I disagree with the notion that the Crystal Tower is an "original story". The Cloud of Darkness making a pact with Xande, Amon, Glasya, and Scylla as well as Doga and Unei helping you out are all from Final Fantasy 3, as are most of the bosses in those raids being boss fights in 3. It's the same story and characters, just retooled to fit in 14's world. Sure, the story stuff with Cid, Nero, and Graha are original, but they're just a small part of the overall theme of that Alliance Raid. It's safe to say without Final Fantasy 3, none of it would exist in 14.

Even a lot of the original characters borrow from past games to the point it's impossible to know how things could have played out if those games never existed. For example, all the Garlean legion divisions are themed after their respective number. It's no coincidence the 7th Legion led by Nael was the one to call down a meteor to smite Eorzea like Sephiroth did in Final Fantasy 7. Nor was it a coincidence the 6th Legion led by Regula was the one who went after the Warring Triad and Floating Contenant like the empire did in 6 Or the 12th Legion that invaded Dalmasca, or the fact the Garlean legates are all modeled after Judges from FF12 to begin with. Likewise, it's hard to imagine how Heavensward would look without FF6 or 7 given the endgame is all about the Floating Continent and Warring Triad from 6, or how Thordan and his knights were all modeled after the Knights of the Round from FF7. I could go on but we'd be here all day listing how even the most minor things like the Alchemist job questline being a retelling of Rachel's story from FF6.

There's nothing wrong with being a fanservice game, or a hodgepodge of all the other Final Fantasy games (with a touch of Vagrant Story and Tactics Ogre). I'm not trying to sell 14 short, but I think that's where 14's biggest appeal lies. I enjoy the game myself, I just feel they go overboard with the callbacks a bit to much to the point it often times become the games biggest downfall. The Omega raid tier was my least favorite precisely because it was more or less nothing but pulling random bosses from 5 and 6 and making you fight them for no reason other than callbacks with nothing tying them to the world of 14. We're only fighting Kefka while Dancing Mad plays in the background because he's a popular villain from a past game, not because he ties into the story in any way or fit in the lore. The current Nier stuff is very much the same.


So we are at some more common ground here because while I'd argue FFXIV is the best FF game to date, it's not by a wide margin and I simply say it sits in the upper echelon along some others, but due to the consisten release of content and therefore the time spent in the game, combined with the overall satisfaction with Shadowbringers MSQ, it's basically surpassed my time with any other FF game at this point. Since you broke it down more it's clear you are aware of the likenesses and differences in the old final fantasy elements they borrow. I think FFXIV does have a heavy element of borrowing, but I consider raids to be largely side content despite the amount of time we spend in them for gear. For every raid that borrows a boss with no little or no recontextualizing (like kefka) I also have to look at the original dungeons that simply fit into the FFXIV world. Especially MSQ dungeons. But you don't really grind those daily or weekly quite like you do the raids. So while a lot of your time is spent in reworked old school FF bosses, I think if you experienced all the content one time only, the time spent in original content would outweigh time spent in rehashed content. The line becomes blurry because the usage of old FF bosses and music but that's kind of a FF thing in general.
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Tenchi



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 4313
Location: Ottawa... now I'm an ex-Anglo Montrealer.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:41 pm Reply with quote
I haven't played any Final Fantasy game since Final Fantasy XII on Playstation 2.

If a Final Fantasy game isn't primarily an offline, single-player experience, I'm really not interested. (Yes, I know that XIII is single-player, that XV has single-player mode, and that XVI is slated to be single-player, but I haven't gotten around to playing the former two and I doubt I'll have anything that will be able to play XVI for the foreseeable future.)


Last edited by Tenchi on Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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AksaraKishou



Joined: 16 May 2015
Posts: 1188
Location: End of the World
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:53 pm Reply with quote
Megiddo wrote:
I'll stick with Tactics, thank you. It's a great game and doesn't stick content behind a monthly subscription.


You know MMO's have to make money right? It's either this or make shit p2w/tailor thing around wanting to make you spend money.
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Zeino



Joined: 19 May 2017
Posts: 824
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:54 pm Reply with quote
No mention of Emet-Selch who is probably the best Final Fantasy villain since Kafka as a reason for why FFXIV is the best?
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TheCanipaEffect



Joined: 27 Apr 2017
Posts: 30
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:23 pm Reply with quote
Zeino wrote:
No mention of Emet-Selch who is probably the best Final Fantasy villain since Kafka as a reason for why FFXIV is the best?


I wanted to keep it mostly spoiler free and explaining the appeal of Emet-Selch can be a big spoiler.
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AiddonValentine



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 1868
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:40 pm Reply with quote
phia_one wrote:
The only MMO I've played is ESO, but I've considered playing FFXIV. It sounds and looks cool, but TBH the only FF games I really enjoyed were X and XII.


You should be fine, it actually has a really good story and the base game and first expansion are now free with no strings attached. It has this really neat class system where you can take on any job without rolling a new character.
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Dark Mac



Joined: 17 May 2008
Posts: 79
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:36 am Reply with quote
Is this an ad? I think FFXIV is great, but it's weird that you don't mention any of the game's flaws, like the weak story of Stormblood and Zenos being an abysmally dull villain.
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