Forum - View topicAlternative methods of distribution for subbed anime?
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vroenis
 Posts: 61 Location: Australia |
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In the wake of Bandai's press release regarding fansubbing and the ensuing discussion here on the ANN boards, some interesting ideas have come up in regards to watching anime.
- Would you be receptive to an iTunes-type business model for delivering subtitled anime before a retail DVD release? (This is not in relation to the iTunes software, but the business model of charging per episode/download). - What business structure, additional services, charges and incentives would encourage you to use such a service? Please be fair and realistic in your responses; feel free to respond in the negative, but 'No' and 'cos it sux' doesn't help anyone's perspective. I also realise that there are similar services currently available, but I'm attempting to come from the perspective of those who primarily watch subtitled anime as a first preference. I'm also suggesting that the practice become more wide-spread if commercially viable, perhaps with the outlook to have as many major anime distributors as possible offer this service in an ideal situation. Apologies if this has been covered in another thread, please feel free to move/lock and divert this post. |
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Ragg
Posts: 144 |
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I like the idea of Itunes type of thing with single episode + like dvd set downloads. However, the episodes would need to cost considerably less lol. Although I buy most of my anime, I still get fansubbed anime etc. The thought of buying every anime that I think I want to see is not exactly appealing, such as if I bought Monster DVD box set, I would've shot myself. I support companies who release these great animes, and know that they try hard to succeed with their anime, and not only make money. That is the main reason I stopped watching American released movies, because the basic lay out of, half-naked women, guns, drugs, sex, and stuff doesn't appeal anymore.
What I ABSOLUTELY OPPOSE is live streaming. This IMHO would be the worst thing to happen, because 1.) I can't put it on my zen vision:m  , 2.)It'd be youtube that you would have to pay for(I don't youtube) 3.) Most importantly you would have to have an internet connection, and this way i believe it kind of severely limits the flexibility of anime. (I have cable, prolly you don't get what i'm saying lol.)
My Ideal Situation- A company designs something with a 3.5 inch screen like the rumored new ipod video to come, gets all the anime ever lol...(unlikely) and charges monthly for episodes that would be streamed to ur device. REALLY UNLIKELY, but hey you can wish right? Although you could consider me contradicting myself, but in reality I don't know why, but I just don't like the idea of Youtube. Wierd eh |
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vroenis
Posts: 61 Location: Australia |
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No it makes sense Ragg, a streaming service wouldn't be ideal, but the idea would be broadband downloads.
The aim is to address some of the issues causing the proliferation of fansubs. Having download service in addition to retail DVD releases that come later because of dubbing would be an attempt to attract legitimate purchases for titles that might otherwise be downloaded for free. It won't win everyone over, but it would be interesting to see just how many people would be willing to pay for it to honour the creators. The service comes with the assumption that the market-penetration of broadband-internet is ever increasing. |
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Kidder
 Posts: 188 Location: Bat country! >.< |
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I'm assuming a service of this kind would have the subtitled episodes hosted on a server/s. The server would have to have a massive amount of bandwidth. To encourage people to use a pay service as opposed to downloading episodes for free, you need to beable to offer faster download rates than what bittorrents can achieve. Today's internet generation want everything as fast as possible. Hell...Forget about releasing the episodes before the DVD is released, I reckon in order to get a good majority of people to subscribe to pay-per-episode service, you'd have to have the episode ready for download pretty much as the show is being aired in Japan... or even before... This would involve either the studio releasing the episode to the pay-per-episode service beforehand or the actual studio preparing their own "soft" subtitled copy of the episode to be hosted on the pay-per-episode server for simultaneous release. It could work but the level of collaboration between the service provider and the studios would have to be extremely high. Despite some substantial costs being removed by distributing the episodes through the internet, there's the still the licensing fee and server hosting costs. Can all these costs be covered by subcribers and advertisment hosting? Will their method of distribution be on par or better than bittorrents? Can a company (offering what are essentially "fansubs") directly compete with the multitude of extremely efficient fansubbers who provide the same service for free? If the pay-per-episode service could release the episodes literally as they are being aired in Japan or immediately after, then I would definately consider paying for the service. If the episodes are released prior to a DVD release (in say the US), then the episodes would have to be a DVD quality video being sold at a substantially lower price. |
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Bruce Lee
 Posts: 715 Location: Seattle, Washington |
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With the current price of Anime DVDs being in the $20-$30 range for 3-5 episodes, I would figure a reasonable price would be in the $2.00-$3.00 range. Maybe they could offer the first 5 episodes for $10 or so on discount, then charge $3.00 per each remaining episode. In sub only form, you'd have to think they're cutting out much of the costs for packaging, dubbing, extras, menus, and mastering, so IMO this price range let the distributors keep their current profit margins.
IMO, this wouldn't be a poor system at all, but there are some caveats that could throw a wrench in things. First off, DRM could get in the way. If I buy the episode, I want 100% control over it. I want to be able transfer it to my laptop or dekstop freely. I want to put it in a PMP device, and burn it to a DVD anytime I want. Zero limitation. Secondly, if I decide I like the series, and want the dub and or extras on an official DVD with artwork and a case, I don't feel I should be made to pay full price again. I would want some sort of discount. My hard earned money for early subs helped fund the end product, so I should be entitled to something, right? Third would be quality. I know that most distributors these days have excellent releases, and I would expect the same thing from my downloads. Don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting h.264 720p 6.1 DTS-ES, but I would like some nice, quality encodes with audio to match the source (no re-mixing - 2.0 or 5.1 - whatever they get from the studio). If they try to sell some low-res, strange file type/codec encodes, I think the fansubbers would have that much more ammo. If the stars were to allign, and all of these pieces could somehow come together, I'm sure I would purchase tons of Anime this way. But here's the thing - It will NEVER happen. Unless the distributors can offer a quicker turnaround time for episodes, or better subbing/typessetting/karaoke, or something more to grab people, it won't work. The business model just isn't there. Music is one thing - everybody listens to music, and with the rise of DMPs, people are taking it with them more and more. By making this product inexpensive and easy to aquire, Apple's iTunes works great. On the other hand, a niche market like Anime could only dream of obtaining the same business success as iTunes - even with support of all the major distributors. One of the factors of this could be the market demographic. Everyone loves music, and those with lots of money can afford to purchase a lot of it. On the other hand, (legal) Anime has an arguably younger market segment, as well as a smaller distribution model. Many fans with CDs regularly available may be unable to purchase Anime due to the lack of available DVDs or the lack of funds. Remember, CDs cost $10-$15 each - half the price of 1 Anime DVD - a piece of a show. I'm sure there are other factors, but I think I've writen enough on this subject for 1 night. Suffice to say I'd be interested, but I'm not holding my breath. |
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vroenis
Posts: 61 Location: Australia |
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All very good points Kidder.
The bandwidth issue is an important one, but would there be any way to achieve this from a technical standpoint by essentially using a similar peer-structured program like bittorrent? Perhaps this isn't realistic, but something similar may be possible. Further on bandwidth, the overall resolution of the image may need to be dropped in order to accomodate heavy traffic, in which case the service is yet another step behind fansubs generated from captured raws. The idea though would be to try and appeal to people's sense of ethics... should they have any. Sure there might be sacrifices like availability after a fansub, but if would at least be something if it was only hours or days rather than years? As some have stated, a license can take up to two years to be released in other regions commercially for dubbing produciton and other reasons. Something Ragg also mentioned as you did of-course is reduced cost. As the business model would be similar to iTunes, the pricing structure would also follow suit, being competatively priced against retail sales. In the Bandai forum I also suggested the examples of rebates for commercial releases that might be issued, or limited edition merchandise for those who purchase downloads to reward their patronage and provide incentive, to name a few. Certainly though the logistical side of things seems to be one of the more dramatic ones in respects to hardware and bandwidth, and true, it would be difficult to compete against 12 hour turnarounds for the quickest of fansub groups unless they were being produced on the same schedule as the Japanese air-dates and turnaround time. Another question I suppose would be: Assuming that it was technically achievable, and given the right price and incentives, if you had the choice to download a fansub or honestly pay for an episode and supporting the creators, would you pay for a legitimate download? |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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I prefer a hard copy, I don't like paying for something that I don't ever obtain physically. Not to mention seperating subs and dubs would create a bigger rift in the market and end up pitting those aspects of the industry against one another and the fanbase would follow suit in a way beyond what already exists. Not to mention that would pit a pay service up against people who offer it for free with no significant benefits to paying for it as you don't even get the extra's, the packaging or a dub.
I really don't want some file though that I have to see on my computer or burn a copy or whatnot. I much prefer to just have the disc and place it in the player on my home theater setup and hit play and that's it. Now, sadly I see this thread going the same way as that mess of a thread in the talkback forums. I hope not, but if history serves it's coming. |
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ganami
 Posts: 40 |
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Its a great idea I would support a itune base. But who whould do it? most Japanese studios would have to support it. But here is an idea Cartoonnetwork Jetstream has a good concept, this format would do.
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vroenis
Posts: 61 Location: Australia |
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Bruce Lee: Great comments - and fair-enough in regards to anime perhaps still being too niche, but how realistic do you see this happening in the future? What time-frame would you estimate?
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ganami
Posts: 40 |
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ManOfRust
 Posts: 1935 Location: Seattle, WA |
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I don't think we are going to see anything like this right away, but it may be coming somewhere down the road. As Bruce Lee says, anime is too niche for it to be the trail blazer for this kind of service, but if we start seeing TV shows successfully offered in this format somehow it may become more feasible to make anime available also.
I think cost would be a major factor. I think Bruce Lee's estimates of the $2 to $3 per episode range are as good as any, but one other possibility no one has yet mentioned is advertising. I wouldn't mind having to take some ads along with the anime episode as long as they don't break up the actual episode. They would have to run either at the beginning or during the breaks where ads originally ran when the series aired on TV. If having ads could bring the cost down even further, they then would be worth it as far as I am concerned. I also agree that attention to the formats of various portable video players on the market (including things like the PSP) needs to be taken into account. While some people would be willing to watch on their computers, I am like Keonyn in that if I am going to sit down and watch anime I want to be on my couch, watching on my home entertainment system. Being able to download to a portable player is another story, however. Being able to watch while on the go would be the only reason I would go for a service like this. |
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Kidder
Posts: 188 Location: Bat country! >.< |
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Yeah, this sort of distribution method is best tested on something a lot more popular and that encompasses a greater market share. There was a video posted as a torrent a while back of a lecture on how torrents could be good for the movie/tv show industry. Basically, the main idea was to imbed small logos of advertising companies into an area of the screen, so that the logo isn't intrusive, but is also noticeable. It could be just a logo (like the McDonald's golden M, or the Pepsi logo) that would change every few minutes. The idea is to make the ads unremovable, so the advertisers are getting screen-time (which is what they pay for) and prevent people from editing the video to get rid of the ads. If the companies that produce the tv shows could make up the costs of producing the shows via advertising rights, then the distribution takes care of itself. They could even throw in some product placement for good measure 
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vroenis
Posts: 61 Location: Australia |
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All great perspectives; both those in the positive and the negative.
I understand that the idea isn't for everyone, it wouldn't be one that is intended for all anime viewers across the board. The truth of the matter is that people watch fansubs. From a marketting perspective, how can publishers try and break into that market? Fair-enough, there are plenty of people who enjoy the tactile nature of retail purchases and who prefer not to view anime on a PC, which of-course are great things, and an additional distribution model would not in any way seek to convert any viewers in that market. It doesn't have to be an iTunes-type model, but there has to be a wise solution to fansubs, which will take a mighty effort on everyone's behalf; the creators, publishers and distributors, and we the fans. This is a fan-generated problem, and in a round-about way, I feel that it may take a fan-generated solution. If not directly from us, then with all support we can give. I'm not trying to sell the idea of alternative distribution to everyone, but at least in some respect offer as realistic as possible a venture to at least be profitable and competative enough to begin to maximise profits. The solution, should there be one, would likely not be something we might see as feasible right now, but remember that once upon a time in the days of Napster, no-one could be convinced that selling compressed music files online could be successful; the problem just seemed far too large. However it took a unique way of thinking to provide at least a tap into the downloading market. Sure enough, it hasn't stopped peer-to-peer sharing at all, nor would a licenced download service put a stop to fansubs, but it does generate additional revenue. I also take on-board the good comments regarding anime as quite a niche market, and the differences between anime and music, and perhaps something of the scale if iTunes is for the moment unrealistic for our industry, but that doesn't mean there is no solution at all. I understand that many of you are happy with the way you each individually acquire anime, but equally you all dislike the existence of fansubs. There must me more that can be done in the long-term other than just shake our heads and sigh. If anime truly is experiencing a boom, then now might be a good time to seriously look at this issue. Even if anime is still niche today, where do we imagine it will be in five, ten years time? |
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roxfan
Posts: 38 |
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Someone is already trying this. Unfortunately, no progress was seen from them during the last year, and recently their servers went down, so I'm not sure if they are having any success...
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ganami
Posts: 40 |
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Thats a shame. Great idea, but I think the only way it would of worked is the anime industry has to start sueing fansubbers and shut them down. But if they did that would fansubbers still sub? |
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