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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15920
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:38 pm Reply with quote
meiam wrote:
As far as Ryoko, is she cliche? Yes, I can write a simple definition of her. "The main character in this story learn that one of there family member has been murdered and they are only left with a simple clue as to the identity of the killer. Using that only clue they embark on a quest for revenge, along the way they'll meet different character some who will support them in there quest, some which will start as foes but become ally, they will earn great power and get caught up in a plot that could destroy the world as we know it. They will also learn of a dark secret about themselves and discover that they alone posses the power to defeat the evil and save the world". That description can fit hundreds of character in story (probably hundreds in anime alone). Does that make Ryoko a badly written character? No, not at all.

That is an archtype, and not proof of being cliché. Ryuko's mission may be typical, but the way it is handled is not neccesarilly the same thing we have seen so many times.

She is a schoolgirl who has been getting into fights since her time in boarding schools, she came home one time to see her rarely seen father to find him murdered. She then takes the same weapon that was found in his body, in looking for clues she is sorely beaten and returns to her home, finding there a weapon created by her father that will allow her to match and overcome others.

You will see what you described is a very basic story that has existed for hundreds, maybe thousand years, and akin to a hero out to save the princess. To use another word, in the word trope, and tropes are not bad or necessarily cliché. You can look all over Kill la Kill's page, but something I would like to compare is something that is not on the page, but might be an interesting look at a trope you might associate as a cliché of the family revenge trope; Relative baton.

If I wanted to go further into this trope vs cliché thing, I might recommend some videos by Anita Sarkeesian's Feminist Frequency on Damsel in distress, which looked at how in video games the story of the hero and damsel has been becoming a bit of a cliché instead, but puts forward claims the difference between trope and cliché. The video are strangely controversial and her opinions did get a lot of attention, but it is a good watch.
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meiam



Joined: 23 Jun 2013
Posts: 3708
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:12 am Reply with quote
At this point I don't know what else to say, I'll just repeat the dictionaries definition of cliche

"a phrase or expression that has been used so often that it is no longer original or interesting"

And then some more for good measure

"A cliché or cliche (UK /ˈkliːʃeɪ/ or US /klɪˈʃeɪ/) is an expression, idea, or element of an artistic work which has become overused to the point of losing its original meaning, or effect, and even, to the point of being trite or irritating, especially when at some earlier time it was considered meaningful or novel"

"A trite or overused expression or idea"

"a trite, stereotyped expression; a sentence or phrase, usually expressing a popular or common thought or idea, that has lost originality, ingenuity, and impact by long overuse"

The requirement for something to be a cliche is simply that it be overused. Something can be an archetype and cliche if that archetype is overused. You can consider "main character avenging there parent deaths" to be an archetype, I find that be very specific. If you change it to "avenging there best friend" that would suddenly be a different archetype even thought they share a large number of event, or you consider "main character avenging murder" to be the archetype, in which case "hero avenging parents" isn't an archetype anymore, or it's an archetype within an archetype. So I don't know if I would agree or disagree, but that's a separate discussion.

We can disagree on wether or not character who are attempting to avenge there family are overused. We can argue about wether or not Ryoko quest is really about avenging her father. We can argue about what good or bad writing is. But if you disagree with the definition of a word, there's really nothing much to say.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2941
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:23 am Reply with quote
CrowLia wrote:
It's like the episode in Magi spoiler[in which Alibaba, Morgiana and Hakuryuu are hypnotized by Madaura, who makes them see her as their mother. Morgiana never met her mother and Hakuryuu hated his, and still both fell flat for the deceit and it took a lot of effort from Aladdin -and Hakuryuu remembering why he hated his mother to begin with- to break off the spell]. I believe it's something very similar. The character's original feelings about their mother are not important, since the "brainwashin" taps into the basic human instinct of seeking for a mother's love and protection


Except in Magi it was made unambiguously clear that that was exactly what was going on. The woman in question wasn't ACTUALLY their mothers. She was clearly a fraud, and was clearly using some kind of magic device that was specifically created to have the effect of forcing someone to see her as their mother and worship her. All of that was clearly shown and articulated.

Here, by contrast, it is not fake in that way because spoiler[Ragyo is actually her mother. Also, she's not using some special "i'm your mother, worship me and do whatever I say" device, and no indication was given that that is what happened even without a special device. Instead, all we saw were images of Ragyo and Ryuko being together and happy], with Ryuko like put into tears as if it was something she always wanted for her entire life. However, there has been zero indication up to that point that she ever even cared about it.
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15920
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:40 am Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
Here, by contrast, it is not fake in that way because spoiler[Ragyo is actually her mother. Also, she's not using some special "i'm your mother, worship me and do whatever I say" device, and no indication was given that that is what happened even without a special device. Instead, all we saw were images of Ragyo and Ryuko being together and happy], with Ryuko like put into tears as if it was something she always wanted for her entire life. However, there has been zero indication up to that point that she ever even cared about it.

I suddenly got a very funny comparison in my head to Zoolander, if only Ragyou had a dog.

The images broke her willspoiler[ so she can be controlled]. Because she wants family, the series was actually pretty clear on this, she was the one most upset in the change of Mako's family in that one episode. And a spoiler[mother can be a family, in fact focusing on just a mother being the family would force the loyalty] only onto her so that the mother can more easily dominate her.
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Penguin_Factory



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 732
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:48 am Reply with quote
Quote:
The point is, never before in the whole series was there ever even an INKLING of indication that spoiler[Ryuko cared one bit about a mother. We never even had any indication that she even had a mother.] For all we know, she could have been created in a test tube, until we learn the truth.


Ryuko's relationship with the Mankanshoku family has been a major piece of character development throughout, and it's made pretty clear in the episode with the Fight Club that they're giving her something she needs emotionally.

Yes, she's never specifically stated that she really wants a mom in particular, but she does want a family, and in thespoiler[implanted memories it seems like it's just Ryuko and Ragyo living together; in other words Ragyo is casting herself as Ryuko's family.]

A family doesn't have to be a multi-person nuclear deal with a mom, dad, and 2.5 kids you know, there are plenty of young people for whom "family" is just a single parent or even a sibling.
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WhiteHairGirls



Joined: 27 Apr 2011
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Location: New York City
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:07 am Reply with quote
Mako the spoiler[ultimate survivor of every single death flags.]
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Stark700



Joined: 30 Jan 2012
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Location: Earth
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:26 am Reply with quote
Mako deserves a freaking gold medal for her efforts. Seriously, they would not be where they are if it wasn't for her by now. I also give a big applause to the the Elite 4 and Satsuki-sama for their efforts.

Also, is spoiler[Nui] going to die next episode?
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Tuor_of_Gondolin



Joined: 20 Apr 2009
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Location: Bellevue, WA
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:58 am Reply with quote
I don't know if spoiler[Nui] going to die, but it looks like things are going to become Really Unpleasant for her, because Ryuko can wipe the floor with her while wearing Senketsu. I don't think Ragyo really thought that Ryuko could do what she did this episode -- she thought she had it -- or rather her -- in the bag. That miscalculation is gonna cost her, methinks.

Another great episode, and I did think, for a moment there, that maybe spoiler[Mako's] luck had run out; I guess I should've known better. Still, it was nice seeing spoiler[Ryuko back to her badass self again.]
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Penguin_Factory



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 732
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:01 am Reply with quote
So does anyone have any thoughts on that first scene where spoiler[Ryuko, Ragyo and Nui are apparently having a threesome or something?] When I first started watching this show I thought it was just another empty, pandering fanservice-fest but there seems to be something a little deeper going on below the surface, so I have to assume that scene meant something other than HAWT NEKKID GIRLS. Maybe it's just meant to cement Ragyo's status as a major creep (as if there was any doubt).

Also the bit where spoiler[Ryuko kisses Nui and the line "looks like she can't suppress her own emotions"] was interesting. I know Nui has this batshit delusion that Ryuko secretly hate-loves her or something, but I'm assuming that's not actually accurate. Ryuko hasn't had the slightest hint of romantic feelings toward anyone so maybe she's meant to have some seriously repressed teenage hormones.

I'm going to be a bit dissappointed if spoiler[Nui dies] next episode. I've been waiting for her character to be fleshed out a bit more ever since she was introduced.

That bit where spoiler[the door handle flies off and clocks Ryuko's "groom" on the back of the head] might be one of the single funniest slapstick moments I've ever seen in an anime.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 25689
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:09 am Reply with quote
Penguin_Factory wrote:
So does anyone have any thoughts on that first scene where spoiler[Ryuko, Ragyo and Nui are apparently having a threesome or something?] When I first started watching this show I thought it was just another empty, pandering fanservice-fest but there seems to be something a little deeper going on below the surface, so I have to assume that scene meant something other than HAWT NEKKID GIRLS.


Nah, I think it is there purely to be salacious and merely repeats the already well-established fact that Ragyo is creepy. She clearly likes spoiler[spending time with her daughters naked,] which, of course is quite common .... IN PORN!!!

I really don't know how they are going to pad out the remaining 4 episodes. I'm going to assume they are going to do the standard anime thing of not resolving the action climax until 5 minutes before the end of the last episode so that there is absolutely no time left to properly take leave of our characters. So 3.98 episodes more of ineffectual fighting against Ragyo/Original Life Fiber until the inevitable victory?

*sigh*
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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:20 am Reply with quote
Episode 21

I had a feeling that Mako would have a spoiler[direct hand in Ryuko getting back to her sense, good to see it happen along with Senketsu]. Senketsu being worn spoiler[by both Satsuki and Mako this time], I wonder if fan art with provide more variations. Satsuki managed to put up a good fight, I do like how Ryuko seemed to be able to tell that spoiler[Satsuki was not bonded enough].

And Nui too, seeing spoiler[her get impaled felt very good], hopefully it won't give Nui spoiler[the two pieces]. Also good when Satsuki managed to pick out Nui's spoiler[worry that Ryuko was not fully under control].
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danilo07



Joined: 25 Dec 2011
Posts: 1580
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:39 am Reply with quote
This is what,like fourth or fifth time that spoiler[Mako and company returned Ryuko into her previous normal state?]And the fact that they wasted an entire episode on it makes it even more depressing.I knew for certain what will happen(because I have already seen this scenario happen before),so there was no tension present in the entire episode.Ryuko has also become poorly defined character,to the point that I would have hard time describing her to a person that hasn't watched the show.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2941
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:53 am Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:


Nah, I think it is there purely to be salacious and merely repeats the already well-established fact that Ragyo is creepy. She clearly likes spoiler[spending time with her daughters naked,] which, of course is quite common .... IN PORN!!!



I thought this was quite funny given the argument that a bunch of people were having several pages back where several fans of the show were passionately asserting that there was absolutely nothing sexually creepy at all about Ragyo.
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Penguin_Factory



Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 732
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:13 am Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:

I really don't know how they are going to pad out the remaining 4 episodes. I'm going to assume they are going to do the standard anime thing of not resolving the action climax until 5 minutes before the end of the last episode so that there is absolutely no time left to properly take leave of our characters. So 3.98 episodes more of ineffectual fighting against Ragyo/Original Life Fiber until the inevitable victory?

*sigh*


Well, the only plot thread to be resolved at this point is beating Ragyo, and they've got three episodes to do it. That's more than enough time to close off the character's development and wrap everything up nicely.

I'd be getting worried if there was only one episode to go, but three seems like enough.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 25689
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:21 am Reply with quote
I have the exact opposite thought. Personally, episode 21 felt like a penultimate episode to me. I could easily imagine the next eppie being the last. Except it's not. Which means we'll have to slog through almost four episodes before getting to the inevitable victory. So that's why I'm wondering what the writers are going to do to keep my interest going. It feels like it's just going to be a bunch of fights where Raygo/Original Life Fiber is never defeated until the last 5 minutes of episode 25.

To a certain extent, I should probably give the writers more credit, simply because to date they've managed to keep me interested even during the long Ryouko vs. the Elite 4 procession.

We'll see, I guess.

Oh and Raygo's propensity for romping around nude with her daughters actually flies in the face of her character. It's been firmly established that she thinks clothing is teh shitballz, yet apparently can't wait to shed them any time an offspring is around.
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