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OEL manga jumping the shark

What are you going to say next, that OEL manga is making America losing their identity. You're going to say OEL manga is a disgrace to Japan. The dumbest thing you're probably going to say is that OEL manga caused school shooting.

Tamaria wrote:

It's all the same medium after all.

Nice that we agree in that department.

Tamaria wrote:

Many kids think manga is a superior kind of comic

The truth is. It is. Why else has manga been able to change the market? Over the past 2 decades, it's been selling in droves.

Tamaria wrote:

Many kids think manga is a superior kind of comic

The truth is. It is. Why else has manga been able to change the market? Over the past 2 decades, it's been selling in droves.

Hell, just explain to me how, regardless of sales, Love Hina is superior to Love And Rockets. Seriously - I'd love to know.

Tamaria wrote:

Many kids think manga is a superior kind of comic

The truth is. It is. Why else has manga been able to change the market? Over the past 2 decades, it's been selling in droves.

Look, countries and cultures has been influenced one another since ancient time. Japan has also been influenced by other countries, but they added their style to make it more their own. That's the same thing as OEL manga. I don't see any problem with that. America has also took influences from other countries also. Manga is one of those influences that US took from Japan. So does other countries. You got a problem with that. You're implying that US bow down to Italy and UK and Mexico.

Telling people that it's not manga is free speech. But manipulating and trying to convince people that manga made in America and other countries are not manga is not free speech, that's bullying and manipulation. It's not going to work on me and KyuuA4. OEL manga has the right to be here. They are art just like manga and American Comic Book.

Call yourself Napoleon, why don't you call yourself Jack Thompson, but you use OEL manga as your "video game violence". You think it lame marketing. I don't see any problem with that and so does many other people. What are you going to say next, that OEL manga is making America losing their identity. You're going to say OEL manga is a disgrace to Japan. The dumbest thing you're probably going to say is that OEL manga caused school shooting.

Sure, say that and you're be the next Jack Thompson. You don't like the name and you don't like some of them. You treat it like you want it ban or put a lawsuit into it. Are you a greedy person? If you are, then that's mean you want to frame OEL manga for a incident with no absolute evidence.

Ban OEL manga, but you are also banning Japanese manga and American Comic book along with it.

Why don't you leave OEL manga alone and Tokyopop alone. I think Tokyopop do well with OEL manga. You haven't blame Del-Rey, Antartic Press, Seven Sea Entertainment, EigoMANGA, Germany, Brazil, France and other countries and company for their lines of manga. You just blame Tokyopop (also Ben Dunn) like they are "Rockstar game" to you (Jack Thompson always targeted Rockstar game and not many others).

I don't always used Wikipedia. I used google to find other sources that can back me up on OEL manga. they're relaible a lot of time.

What you say about me being a racist. No, don't called me a racist. I work at NIH and I have co-worker who are of different origin. I have friends who are black, hispanics, Asian, and caucasian. I even had crushes on girls who are of different races.

Fourteen people liking OEL manga and ten people who dislike OEL manga is better then "20 people who dislikes OEL manga and 14 people who like OEL manga", and "0 people like OEL manga and 100 people dislikes OEL manga". That's how it works for me.

You're not the boss of me. You're a bully and the "son of Jack Thompson" who don't like OEL manga and just probably read one and never like another. I don't care, I'll continue to read OEL manga no matter how good it is just like how many people play violent video game when Jack criticized violent game.

You know I'm glad I brought up video game. I found a person I could compare to you Xenos. Jack Thompson is the only one I could compare you to. You treat OEL manga like they are a danger to in anime/manga community. You don't have to be Japanese to draw manga. You just have to be a good anime/manga veteran and a good artist to pull of a OEL manga.

I don't see any problem with it and so does other people. So what, we took influences from other countries. You haven't blame them, you sound like this country is losing their identity. I haven't because I love US History and I can never forget the country I was born in and that is USA. So does many other people. The same things goes for Japan, it's been heavily influenced by USA. But still I don't see any Japanese living in Japan (I may wrong) who don't like western-influence stuff. I don't see Japan forming a terrorist group or orginization that oppose western stuff.

The truth is. It is. Why else has manga been able to change the market? Over the past 2 decades, it's been selling in droves.

It was able to sell, because the marketing of the European and American comics industry failed. Both industries shot themselves in the foot by focusing on only two demographics:
-Boys (of which 95% have grown out it by the time they finish middle school and become significant consumers)
-Collectors (usually males in their late twenties/early thirties, extremely loyal to their favourite series/publishers and willing to spend crazy amounts of cash)

Personally, I was thinking more a consumer advocate like Ralph Nader.

... This is the crux of your argument? That manga is better than comics!? That popular = better!?

It was able to sell, because the marketing of the European and American comics industry failed. Both industries shot themselves in the foot by focusing on only two demographics:
-Boys (of which 95% have grown out it by the time they finish middle school and become significant consumers)
-Collectors (usually males in their late twenties/early thirties, extremely loyal to their favourite series/publishers and willing to spend crazy amounts of cash)

And thats different how in relation to the Japanese, where most of the market is either focused on Kids or "So Ronery" shut-ins that has walls filled with Resin Statues of obscure characters?

Ha! Seriously? You're willing to say that all manga, by definition, is better than all American comics? That formulaic dreck like Shiki Tsukai is better than, say, Maus? Or Blankets? Or Watchmen?

Well.. where was TokyoPop on the night of the Columbine shootings?

Trying to keep things straightforward if manipulative? Telling people that it is manga is manipulative. Is false advertising covered under free speech? If I told you I was selling a Toyoda and instead gave you a Scion, is that free speech? If you think that is free speech, then I got a bridge to sell you.

And thats different how in relation to the Japanese, where most of the market is either focused on Kids or "So Ronery" shut-ins that has walls filled with Resin Statues of obscure characters?

Though, I may dare ask. What's the difference between "Graphic Novel" and "Comic"? Humor me here.

Bingo.

Then in comes "Manga" -- with its "new" ideas and "broader" stories -- enough to appeal to a larger audience who suddenly like everything from Japan: from Pocky to actually living in Japan. Because of this larger audience, more people look at "manga" than "comics".

Does anyone remember Calvin and Hobbes anymore?

Because of the Tamaria's above point -- YES -- MANGA IS BETTER THAN COMICS because of its broader niche. Furthermore, let me know if the American "comic" industry finally produces as much as the Japanese "comic" industry. If you look at the Internet -- something like say 4chan Laughing (which IS the Internet) -- sections are dedicated towards "anime" (throw in "manga") pictures than "comic" pictures.

One sad truth: the US "comic" industry is soooooo far behind -- that they have their work cut out for them to expand their niche. Yet, if "manga" sales are still doing poorer than "comic" sales, that only means one thing: We're screwing Japan over.

They were busy changing the company name from Mixx to Tokyopop. NOTICE: This company gained more attention when they changed to Tokyopop.

Oh -- calling American homebrew made manga as "manga" -- that is NOT manipulative. It just means that some white guy made manga. Nothing more. As for OEL... adding that to "manga" -- thus -- OEL manga is bullsh1t -- when manga alone (with no suffix) would suffice. Again, who cares where manga comes from or is developed? This Japan-only concept is obsolete.

If anyone wants the crux of my argument -- it is this:
Manga does NOT have to be made in Japan. It can be made ANYWHERE on this planet -- and beyond.

This makes me wonder. What kind of manga would aliens make?

Quote:

And thats different how in relation to the Japanese, where most of the market is either focused on Kids or "So Ronery" shut-ins that has walls filled with Resin Statues of obscure characters?

Wow, good job at ignoring thousands of manga series! While Japanese publishers have recognised the economic power of the otaku, the casual reader is still very important. No, they do not buy limited edition resin statues, body pillows and 5800 yen DVDs, but they do buy the weeklies and monthlies, they do pick up the tankobon of the series they like.

This argument can only stand if you can define "manga". Is manga an artstyle? If yes, define this artstyle. Or do you just prefer using an exotic word to describe something that has been around for ages, namely comics?

"Graphic novel" is used to refer to longer stories of which the chapters are all bundled together in one of more volumes. "Comic" covers just about anything, syndicated comic strips, webcomics, old-school super hero comics, manga, BD etc.

Mostly because of their new marketing strategies. Tokyopop was the first publisher to sell those DVDbox-sized volumes for $9,95 each. They were also the first American publishers to take shoujo seriously. Not the name change but that was their key to their (quickly diminishing) success.

The Japanese produce a lot of crappy comics, just like the Europeans and Americans. We're just lucky that most publishers only pick the titles that are atleast mediocre. However, if you happen to be interested in junk, I'll gladly point you in the direction of some of Tokyopop's biggest stinkers.

Your only speaking of quantity, while I (and Xenos, Hellkorn etc too, I'm sure) are more concerned with quality.

So by your reasoning, TV is the best medium ever, even though 99% of what is shown on the telly is not worth watching?

Oh, I actually tried to pull something like that for "anime" -- by using generalizations based on visuals. Of course, someone threw in a Disney example, and that got debunked quickly. Not very easy to describe a cross-border artstyle -- unless you have something like Pointillism.

Too properly describe manga as an artstyle. One has to look at the "school" of the artstyle. Questions like, "How do you make manga?" - "What is acceptable to include?" - "Dynamics?" - "Shapes?" arise. Sadly (likely thankfully) - I'm no expert.

Looking at "manga" vs "comic" from a style standpoint. It's like questioning the difference between other "vs" artstyles -- such as Impressionism vs Neo-impressionism.

Many people have said things like, "Manga is so broad; it is 'impossible' to describe it as an artstyle" -- and thus -- resort to the lazy definition of Japan-only. And that is BS.

Functionality is key. What does manga DO that comics do not? (Yet, I'll exclude "genre" to this question as "comics" can theoretically expand beyond 4-panel jokes and superhero stories.)

"Graphic novel" is used to refer to longer stories of which the chapters are all bundled together in one of more volumes. "Comic" covers just about anything, syndicated comic strips, webcomics, old-school super hero comics, manga, BD etc.

Yea. As I thought.

Hmm. I just opened vol. 5 to my copy of Ah My Goddess manga (the only one I buy -- after dropping Negima). Then now I think about the 4-panel Mini-Goddess sections. The main part of Ah My Goddess is manga. The Mini-Goddess part - that's a comic.

Given the state of the economy - I'm sure fewer and fewer can really afford to buy manga. Of the US distributors, who's leading: Del-Ray, Viz, Dark Horse, or Tokyopop?

Thankfully, Tokyopop did come up with the $9.95 (though some rising to $10.95) standard size. Before that, companies such as Viz, and Dark Horse had them in all whacked up sizes. Some books had a price over $20!!

That's because the "Quality" argument is moot. Of course - for all categories - there are the "great" and the "flat out aweful". Yet, true. The "quality" aspect cannot be denied.

On that note, if you plot a quality scale of OEL manga to manga in general - they'll overlap -- indicated that some OEL manga are indeed better than some manga. Mix in comics - same deal.

Yet, a general rule: the more people who buy a product, the greater its survivability in the market.

I don't see the Japanese calling their American-influenced manga "Original Japanese Language American Comic." See the logical gap there? Oh, and, wtf on that last statement.

What would you prefer, an Aston Martin DB9 or a Fiat Panda? Which do you think has sold more? Which do you think has made the most money?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that Western comics are supercars and Japanese comics are crappy little hatchbacks - I think there are masterpieces being produced in both East and West and utter crap being produced in both East and West - I'm just saying that sales don't equate to quality and never have.

If you think that manga is "superior" to American and European comics, explain what it is about them that makes them "superior"?

Hell, just explain to me how, regardless of sales, Love Hina is superior to Love And Rockets. Seriously - I'd love to know.

My suspicion is that when you say "American comics" you mean "Marvel and DC superhero comics". But that's pretty much the same as writing off all manga as generic, by-the-numbers shonen comics for 13 year olds. It really ought to be obvious that both Western comics and manga offer far, far more variety than you give them credit for.

Ha! Seriously? You're willing to say that all manga, by definition, is better than all American comics? That formulaic dreck like Shiki Tsukai is better than, say, Maus? Or Blankets? Or Watchmen?

Wow.

And the amount that manga has "changed the market" is debatable. It opened up the bookstore market to comics in general, yes, but manga still sells quite poorly in the direct market channels, and the fact that Tokyopop and ADV Manga have been struggling is proof that just publishing manga doesn't automatically mean you're going to have a Dr. Scrooge-like vault of gold to swim in.

(My bet is that none of the "OEL manga defenders" won't actually read these books after our recommendations. I'd love to be proven wrong, though.)

Gee. And certain people here say I'm bigoted. You're pretty much sayingsaying "Manga > US comics"? You're saying that Naruto or Love Hina is automatically better than, oh say, Watchmen?

No, I'm implying that America shouldn't bow down to Japan. Sure they have a stronger comics market, but I don't think we should just bend over and let them invade ours.

It's called debating, in which the players make a claim and defend it with evidence and rational arguments. We never said "OEL manga" doesn't have a right to be here. Srsly, when did you become Jesus?

Srsly? You go to college?

We're not against Japanese comic artists influencing other comic artists around the globe and visa versa. It's all the same medium after all.

We do however have a problem with how these manga influenced comics are promoted as (OEL) manga. It is as if these comcis need the word "manga" to sell. Which is bad, because manga only refers to a part of the medium. Many kids think manga is a superior kind of comic, and that is just plain sad. You're a good example of this, by the way.

So even if the OEL manga is crap, you're still going to read it? Funny. I would think you'd at least only stick to the good OEL manga. .

If you really want to make manga, learn Japanese and go over to Japan to try and break in the market there. Then you will be speaking in Japanese and working in the actual manga industry, not just using a single Japanese word. Meanwhile, if you're speaking English - like we all are right now- and making a book here in America, there is no logical reason to toss in a Japanese word to describe your book. It's just marketing BS. You're not speaking Japanese and it's not a book from Japan. Why call it manga?

Sorry. I'm not gonna buy anything from Xenos.

Oh -- calling American homebrew made manga as "manga" -- that is NOT manipulative. It just means that some white guy made manga. Nothing more. As for OEL... adding that to "manga" -- thus -- OEL manga is bullsh1t -- when manga alone (with no suffix) would suffice. Again, who cares where manga comes from or is developed? This Japan-only concept is obsolete.

If anyone wants the crux of my argument -- it is this:
Manga does NOT have to be made in Japan. It can be made ANYWHERE on this planet -- and beyond.

This makes me wonder. What kind of manga would aliens make?

Tamaria wrote:

"Graphic novel" is used to refer to longer stories of which the chapters are all bundled together in one of more volumes. "Comic" covers just about anything, syndicated comic strips, webcomics, old-school super hero comics, manga, BD etc.

Yea. As I thought.

Hmm. I just opened vol. 5 to my copy of Ah My Goddess manga (the only one I buy -- after dropping Negima). Then now I think about the 4-panel Mini-Goddess sections. The main part of Ah My Goddess is manga. The Mini-Goddess part - that's a comic.

If anyone wants the crux of my argument -- it is this:
Manga does NOT have to be made in Japan. It can be made ANYWHERE on this planet -- and beyond.

Many people have said things like, "Manga is so broad; it is 'impossible' to describe it as an artstyle" -- and thus -- resort to the lazy definition of Japan-only. And that is BS.

"comics" can theoretically expand beyond 4-panel jokes and superhero stories.

You expect a lot of people to know good American Comic book. I don't, I grew up loving DC and Marvel. Don't expect me and KyuuA4 to know this stuff beside DC and Marvel and Dark Horse.

That isn't an argument. It's a (fatuous) statement that you have at no point backed up with an actual substantive argument.

It's a working definition - which is more than you have for your counter view.

I don't mind if superheroes get made into OEL manga.

The Japanese call those yonkoma manga, 4-panel manga. The idea is very similar to our comic strips, but western comic strips usually have three panels (which makes the pacing slightly different) and are printed horizontally.

So even if the OEL manga is crap, you're still going to read it? Funny. I would think you'd at least only stick to the good OEL manga.

It's called a fad. I don't see any problem with this fad. I've seen a lot of good fad like myspace then facebook. You want to destroy facebook because it emulate myspace.

Manga is new, fresh, cool etc. European/American comics, on the other hand ,are associated with the super hero comics read in elementary school and the basement of crazy uncle Joe who's still single and owns every video release of every Star Wars movie.