Forum - View topicBest Hero/Heroine Tournament: Finished!
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18248 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Although I'd prefer to see people giving reasons for their votes, in the first round in particular I'm not going to fret about it. There are too many characters that people are not going to be familiar with in this round, and making detailed arguments on each of the 16 pairings is rather cumbersome. Besides, I think enough people are making arguments that those not familiar with various series can glean enough from them.
Now, there will come a point later on where I'm going to start requiring justifications instead of just encouraging them. Probably around Round 4, I think. Incidentally, we have 22 votes in already in less than 24 hours, including several people who didn't participate last time and not including several regulars (including myself) who haven't voted yet. That's promising. In brief, pairings A-1, A-4, A-6, A-9, A-11, and A-13 are all already heavy blow-outs (i.e. 18-4 advantage or more), and A-12 and, very recently, A-16 are close to being ones. In contrast, A-5 and A-15 are dead heats and A-10 and A-14 are nearly so. The rest fall somewhere in between. The only surprises for me so far are how soft Lafiel has been (picked that one totally wrong, I guess!) and how stiff Sailor Moon's competition was early on. EDIT: Ggultra2764's total - which he apparently posted while I was typing up this post - match the official ones if you want exact numbers. I'll post my votes later on, as I'm taking a break after cranking everyone's votes into my new and improved spreadsheet. (The more I use 'em, the more I like 'em - heh.) Last edited by Key on Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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I haven't seen the series Kazuki comes from, but I do want to point out that everything you say here about him could also be applied to Watanuki. I think Watanuki definitely loses out in the part that he grows into his role as hero and a lot of people are judging him based on the early parts of xxxHolic. Of course, his biggest heroic moments do mostly fall in the Kei series as well, which also I'm sure is hurting him here. It's hard to compare since, as I said, I'm not familiar with the series, but Watanuki spoiler[sacrifices his left eye to give Domeki back his sight, and in fact goes to a great amount of trouble to even get to the place where he can make this exchange.] |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16941 |
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Not asking for any sort of in depth reason is one thing. If just saying "guide" is enough for now then fine by me Key. You're the mod. I do want to know though if you're openly saying blatant list posting with no reasoning at all is being allowed. I mean if we can just list away then I'll do that next time and save myself 30 minutes. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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So, I'm only familiar with about 54 of the characters this time around, which is about a dozen or so less than the previous two. Ah well, I'll manage.
A-1 Yuuki Tokugawa, E's Otherwise vs Hakuoro, Utawarerumono Voting for: Hakuoro Yuuki just barely even made it into the tournament, and while the write-up sounds good, Hakuoro's heroism is on a grander scale, and though he acheives his glory through war, he does not seek war. A-2 Kazuki Muto, Buso Renkin Watanuke Kimihiro, xxxHolic Voting for: Watanuke They can't all be homeruns. That Buso Renkin, and by extenstion Kazuki, is apparently either stereotypical or an affectionate parody of shonen doesn't strike me as indicative of special distinction, but Watanuki is rather whiny, annoying, and a little bit selfish for a hero. Of course, once he gets that out of his system, the April Fool does rise to the challenges presented to him. So I guess I'll go with Watanuki. A-3 Pacifica Casull, Scrapped Princess Jil, Tower of Druaga Voting for: Jil Pacifica is certainly a brave girl, and it takes a tremendous will to remain so positive when the entire world is out to kill you, but I have to go with the son of Marka for being more proactive. He may not have been able to always remain as optimistic as Pacifica, but as she had no ill feelings to those seeking her death, he held no grudge against those who betrayed him and did his best to save them. A-4 Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin Mamoru Kusanagi, Blue Seed Voting for: Kenshin Because it doesn't matter. I don't think anyone is surprised that this is a landslide, and Mamoru's only vote is a for-the-underdog one. A-5 Saya Otonashi, Blood+ Toboe, Wolf's Rain Voting for: Saya This is a tough one because I'm unfamiliar with both series, and enthusiasm for both is lukewarm. I'm going with Saya because comments and the guide make her seem more active. A-6 Dr. Tenma, Monster Yusuke Urameshi, Yu Yu Hakusho Voting for: Dr. Kenzo Tenma Comments have made Yusuke seem somewhat thuggish, while I've seen Monster and know Tenma is always noble and kind throughout his journey to atone for a mistake he couldn't possibly have predicted when he decided to treat patients equally rather than give preferential treatment to those with money or political influence. A-7 Clare, Claymore Mai Tokiha, My-Hime Voting for: Mai I have to pick Mai, because Clare's actions are motivated more often by revenge than generosity, and it's the actions of others, primarily Raki, that lead to her change of attitude towards the end of the series. A-8 Siegfried Kircheis, Legend of the Galactic Heroes Robin Sena, Witchhunter Robin Voting for: Siegfried Kircheis The most common argument against Siegfried seems to be that he's a minor character. I'm going to vote for Kircheis anyway, because Robin followed her organizations orders without question despite the obvious duplicity in their actions until she herself became one of their targets. Even then, she was slow to take action. A-9 Goku, Dragonball Nanoha Takamichi, Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha Voting for: Nanoha I like Nanoha's write-up more. Sure, the forerunner of shonen heroes deserves to move on, but he's going to do the easily anyway. A-10 Keisei Tagami, Shikabane Hime Hibiki Tokai, Vandread Voting for: Hibiki Tokai I find my choice easy enough to make, but harder to explain. Keisei is a good character, and I think he's one of only a handful who aren't a main character. I think he really proves himself worthy at the end of Aka when spoiler[he knows fighting Akasha will end in his death, but he protects Ouri, Makina, and the orphans with everything he has.] I don't think I've got much more to say on why I'm picking Hibiki, as I've put most of it into the write-up for him, and Mad_Scientist brought up the earlier comparison I made to Simon (who's pretty much second favorite to win the whole thing). I think the only thing left to mention is his speech in the last episode when he spoiler[rallies various disparate factions to join forces to fight against the forces of Earth.] A-11 Hikaru Shidou, Magic Knight Rayearth Van Flyheight, Zoids Chaotic Century Voting for: Hikaru Van sounds much to generic to move on. A-12 Karasu, Noein Lafiel, Crest/Banner of the Stars Voting for: Lafiel I'm having trouble with this one. Some of Karasu's motivations are pretty selfish, and Lafiel is great, but her heroism is only okay. I think I'll go with Lafiel, since she's slightly closer to being a normal human. A-13 Renton Thurston, Eureka 7 Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There Voting for: Shu I don't think I've ever heard anything but praise for Shu while Renton spends too long whining, apparently. A-14 Yuji Kaido, Blue Gender Sakura Kinomoto, Cardcaptor Sakura Voting for: Yuji Insert cheap shot about Sakura being afraid of ghost stories. But seriously, as wonderful a person as Sakura is, she's surrounded by people who are ready to help her at the drop of one of Tomoyo's handmade cosplay hats. Yuji doesn't have that luxury, and so I find his deeds more impressive. A-15 Minamoto no Hikaru, Otogi Zoshi Gourry Gabriev, Slayers Voting for: Gourry Who will win this battle of indifference? Hikaru sounds like the better choice, especially since the comedic portions of Slayers left a greater impression than its heroics, but one of the few people who has seen Otogi Zoshi says Minamoto's not really as spectacular as the guide makes her out to be. Coin toss it is: Gourry. A-16 Usagi Tsukino, Sailor Moon Allison Whittington, Allison and Lillia Voting for: Usagi Allison is a fun character, and a good entry, but doesn't have quite enough to unseat the icon that is Sailor Moon. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18248 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Time for me to get around to voting, I guess.
Group A-1 Yuuki Tokugawa, E’s Otherwise vs. Hakuoro, Utawarerumono I only saw about half of E'sOtherwise, but Yuuki struck me as a pretty good guy. In terms of raw hero power, though, Hakuoro beats him handily. His actions are individually heroic, inspirational, and usually with the best interests of a large number of people in mind. Group A-2 Kazuki Muto, Buso Renkin vs. Kimihiro Watanuki, xxxHolic Don't know either of these characters, but Kazuki impresses me a little more based on his Guide entry. Group A-3 Pacifica Casull, Scrapped Princess vs. Jil, The Tower of Druaga Pacifica is one of the characters I had in mind when I proposed the Hero-Heroine concept for this tournament, and she was my pick for Heroine of the Year a few years back (2006, maybe?), so she has my full support in this match-up. Group A-4 Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin franchise vs. Mamoru Kusanagi, Blue Seed Mamoru has definite heroic qualities but his motives are, at times, questionable. Kenshin, OTOH, is a juggernaut who will probably last into the late rounds. Group A-5 Saya Otonashi, Blood + vs. Toboe, Wolf’s Rain Although I didn't vote against him in the nominations, I cannot buy Toboe as prominent enough in what he did to be considered a hero; he always seemed rather pathetic to me. Saya isn't a strong choice but definitely the better one here. Group A-6 Dr. Kenzou Tenma, Monster vs. Yusuke Urameshi, Yu Yu Hakusho Haven't seen either, but I'm assuming that Dr. Tenma is more deserving here given that he was one of the top nominees and Yusuke wasn't even close to that. Group A-7 Clare, Claymore vs. Mai Tokiha, My-HiME The toughest choice of this Group for me, as I am a big fan of both characters but don't find either to be a strong contender. There isn't a clear right or wrong choice here, as both ladies do some clearly heroic things but also have aspects of their personalities and situations that get in the way. Ultimately I am going to give a slight edge to Mai because she has a more difficult and stressful situation to deal with that isn't of her own making, whereas Clare kinda brings some of her trouble upon herself. I won't be disappointed regardless of how the voting turns out here, though. Group A-8 Siegfried Kircheis, Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs. Robin Sena, Witch Hunter Robin Robin doesn't impress me as a heroine; she lacks the proper boldness, I think. While I haven't seen LOGH, Siegfried's description impresses me enough to give him the benefit of the doubt this round. Group A-9 Goku, Dragonball franchise vs. Nanoha Takamichi, Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha franchise Nanoha sounds like a worthy candidate, but Goku is one of the premier shonen action heroes and all-around good guys. I know his mistakes and occasional arrogance have been called into question by some, but at this point in the tournament it's going to take stronger arguments - and a stronger opponent - than this to knock him off. Group A-10 Keisei Tagami, Shikabane Hime vs. Hibiki Tokai, Vandread The Guide entry and what little I've seen of Shikabane Hime convince me that Keisei is worthy to be here, but Hibiki gives off far more of a classic hero vibe. Group A-11 Hikaru Shidou, Magic Knight Rayearth vs. Van Flyheight, Zoids Going with the flow here. Hikaru just has too much support to deny. Group A-12 Karasu, Noein – to your other self vs. Abriel Nei Debrusc Borl Paryun Lafiel, Crest/Banner of the Stars franchise I think Lafiel makes a great leading lady but is a hard sell as a "heroine" in the sense that we're talking about. Karasu isn't a great pick, and I think his motivations are too personal to carry him far in this tournament, but he fits the heroic mold better. Group A-13 Renton Thurston, Eureka 7 vs. Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There Not even remotely close. As others have noted, Renton compares so much to Shinji Ikari (in an unfavorable sense) that he'd have a hard time beating any but the weakest competition, whereas Shu is the epitome of what we're looking for in a hero. In the minigame I picked Kenshin to win this bracket, but in a battle of pure merit I'm not sure that even he can beat Shu. No one else in this bracket should be able to even challenge him. Group A-14 Yuji Kaido, Blue Gender vs. Sakura Kinomoto, Cardcaptor Sakura Not fond of Yuji being treated as an heroic figure, since the good he does is balanced out by spoiler[what he does when his aggressive side gets the better of him later in the series]. For that reason I'll go with Sakura instead. Group A-15 Minamoto no Hikaru, Otogi Zoshi vs. Gourry Gabriev, Slayers franchise Say what you will about the guide overselling her, but Hikaru is a legitimate heroic figure, all the moreso because she has to consistently pretend that she's something she's not (i.e. a man) in order to perform her deeds. She may not go far in the tournament but more deserves to win this round than Gourry does. Group A-16 Usagi Tsukino (aka Sailor Moon), Sailor Moon vs. Allison Whittington, Allison and Lillia Allison's got a pretty good write-up, and Usagi has some legitimate knocks against her, but Sailor Moon is too prominent and meritable an heroic figure to deserve to go down this early. |
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mow123
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Many votes yesterday, but almost none today. Well then, it looks like it is time for me to vote.
A-1 Yuuki Tokugawa, E's Otherwise vs Hakuoro, Utawarerumono Voting for: Hakuoro Though a bit on the stoic side, Hakuoro wins. From the comments it appears that he acts not for his own benefit, but for the benefit of others. It also appears Yuuki barely made it into this tournament. A-2 Kazuki Muto, Buso Renkin Watanuke Kimihiro, xxxHolic Voting for: Kazuki No brainer. Kazuki may be a little overblown to be taken seriously, but he's exaggerated in all of the areas that make a hero a hero. He may not be the most believable character, but he has my vote. A-3 Pacifica Casull, Scrapped Princess Jil, Tower of Druaga Voting for: Jil Both have their own merits, but Jil is bit less passive in her actions. Part of being a hero is taking initiative, and Jil beats Pacifica hands down in this area. A-4 Kenshin Himura, Ruroni Kenshin Mamoru Kusanagi, Blue Seed Voting for: Kenshin Kenshin is one of the tournament's strongest contenders. I don't expect him to go anywhere for quite some time. When you dedicate your life to redemption, it makes you hard to beat. A-5 Saya Otonashi, Blood+ Toboe, Wolf's Rain Voting for: Saya I don't know either series, and it seems that the support for both candidates is mediocre at best. Toboe seems to have more non-heroic traits; so Saya it is. A-6 Dr. Tenma, Monster Yusuke Urameshi, Yu Yu Hakusho Voting for: Dr. Kenzo Tenma While radically different than most shonen heroes, Dr. Tenma is an hero in his own way. He is defined by his altruistic nature, and he is dedicated to saving lives. He is faced with many challenges, and for the most part he is able to tough it out. One of the few weaknesses that he has is his indecisive nature. A-7 Clare, Claymore Mai Tokiha, My-Hime Voting for: Clare I'm going based on the comments alone. That being said, I doubt either will go far. A-8 Siegfried Kircheis, Legend of the Galactic Heroes Robin Sena, Witchhunter Robin Voting for: Siegfried Kircheis Yes, he is a minor character. But at the same time, it's very hard to deny the epicness of his character. His limited role may come to hurt him later on, but for now he's strong enough to have my vote. A-9 Goku, Dragonball Nanoha Takamichi, Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha Voting for: Goku Goku has a relatively tough opponent. However, I think I have to give this classic shonen hero the nod here. He often fights for good even when his actions don't exactly make the most of sense. A-10 Keisei Tagami, Shikabane Hime Hibiki Tokai, Vandread Voting for: Hibiki Tokai Hibiki doesn't seem like a noble hero at first, but his choice to protect a certain someone is enough to earn him my vote. A-11 Hikaru Shidou, Magic Knight Rayearth Van Flyheight, Zoids Chaotic Century Voting for: Van Van is extremely generic, but I will give him my vote because he is a testament to the heroic formula. A-12 Karasu, Noein Lafiel, Crest/Banner of the Stars Voting for: Karasu His appearance may not be particularly heroic looking, but he is indeed still a hero. Karasu protects those that he cares most about. Additionally, he's the type of guy that would really do anything to protect the person is he defending. A-13 Renton Thurston, Eureka 7 Shu Maritani, Now and Then, Here and There Voting for: Shu Shu is perhaps this group's strongest contender. His will remains strong even when the tables are turned against him. He may be a kid, but he is much more heroic than most characters despite his age. A-14 Yuji Kaido, Blue Gender Sakura Kinomoto, Cardcaptor Sakura Voting for: Sakura She's about a billion times more pure hearted than her opponent. She may not go as far as I would have liked, but she has the edge here. A-15 Minamoto no Hikaru, Otogi Zoshi Gourry Gabriev, Slayers Voting for: Gourry Gourry is a comic relief character, but he is still has a markedly heroic nature. I predict that whoever wins this match will lose soundly next round, so I guess this match of indifference won't end up mattering that much. A-16 Usagi Tsukino, Sailor Moon Allison Whittington, Allison and Lillia Voting for: Usagi Allison is faced with a tough match up. Usagi's intent allows her to win despite her flaws. Honestly the only thing I am worried about concerning this character is whether or not LydiaDianne picked her to win it all. Hopefully not, but then again it's hard to resist the temptations of fangirlism. 
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arachneia
 Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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I hope not. |
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LydiaDianne
 Posts: 5633 Location: Southern California |
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Please visualize me sticking my tongue out at you! 
I think that Dorcas_Arurelia will probably be able to testify that I was able to keep my Sailor Moon fangirl self under control...no guarantees on the others though. |
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Mad_Scientist
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 3011 |
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Clare campaign mode, overdrive:
If I recall correctly, during the nomination round, you commented on selflessness, stating that was pretty much your definition of heroism. (I think that was you at least.) Well, I shall now attempt to use your own words against you. First, though, let's discuss your comments about Clare being hateful and vengeful. I don't think those are the best ways to describe her, but yah, Clare definitely feels hate for a certain person, and desires vengence on that person. But can we really hold that against her too much? I mean, many herioc people feel hatred at times. Even Vash the Stampede, everyone's favorite pacifist and happy-go-lucky guy, seemed a little hateful when he spoiler[first learned what his brother had done to the crew of the ship.] And while "revenge" is typicially not considered herioc, "avenging fallen comrades" is, when they are pretty much the same thing. What matters is not whether Clare desires vengence of feels some hate for a certain person, but how that affects her actions. Does her hatred control her, and make her behave in unherioc ways? The answer is no. The worst that ever comes from it is Clare behaving rashly at times, but if rash action was enough to disqualify her, than Goku and 90% of the shounen leads shouldn't be in this tourny. Oh, and incidentally, at the end of the series spoiler[Clare is convinced by Raki to not even kill the one she desires vengence on.] Now, regarding my comment on selflessness, consider if you will that Clare chose to become a claymore. She was probably the only person ever to do so, and she did so because she wanted to avenge a certain person. She probably didn't fully realize what she was getting into. As a result of her decision, she endured horrible hardship and pain. Though we didn't see too much of it, the brief flashbacks we saw implied that becoming a claymore is a very horrific experience. All that suffering, to become a hybrid hated and feared by almost everyone. You would think someone who went through so much would be pretty dedicated to getting vengence, right? But... with no hesitation, Clare goes beyond her duty and risks suffering mortal wounds to protect strangers who hate her. She is willing to sacrifice her life, not just for friends, or the world, or some great cause, but for enemies. And if she dies, she gets no vengence. What was all her suffering for then? Her goals, her desire that she worked so hard for, is cast away like nothing. Clare is willing to not just throw away her life, but all her desires and goals which she suffered greatly for, and she is willing to do so for strangers who not that long ago tried to kill her. If that is not selflessness, what is? And the incident I'm going on so much about, spoiler[when she used her body to protect Sid and Galk after they foolishly got involved in the Yoma fight in Rabana] is just one of Clare's herioc moments.
Not true at all. The one major action of Clare's we know of that was purely motivated by revenge is becoming a claymore in the first place. But after that, she routinely behaves in a way she does not have to, and as I went on at length above, is willing to throw away any chance of revenge with no hesitation. And she is this way right from the start. When she doesn't even really know Raki and comes across him near death in the first episode, she cares for him... and has such a look of concern on her face that a Yoma is surprised and realizes she might not be a normal claymore. The particular incident I talked about so much above also occured fairly early on. Raki didn't change her much. He just saw through the cold facade she tried to maintain (though not very well) and realized what her true self was like.
Can you be more specific about what trouble Clare makes for herself? I suppose becoming a claymore could count, but that's a fairly minor thing to count against her considering all her good points. Consider the timeline of Clare's life. spoiler[Clare is a child, her family killed by Yoma, no fault of her's. Eventually saved by Teresa. No matter what Clare does next, she'll have some troubles: her Yoma associations would almost certainly result in her being outcast from the village had she decided to stay. She chooses to travel with Teresa, and we later learn that at least part of the reason why was because she sensed in Teresa the same pain that was in her. She ended up comforting Teresa and changed her completely. Afterwards, she is convinced by Teresa to live in a certain town... and it is destroyed by bandits. Not Clare's fault. And then she travels with Teresa again, well, what else can be expected? After Teresa dies, Clare makes her one decision that can be held against her. She chooses to become a claymore, when she probably could have lived in peace in the nearby village. But really, can this alone be enough to disqualify Clare? Later, as an adult, Clare takes in Raki. While some trouble follows because of this, I assume you weren't thinking of kind/herioc acts of Clare's causing issues for her when you made your comment about some of her troubles being of her own making. So that doesn't count. In Rabana, Clare suffers some major troubles because she doesn't let Sid and Galk die. Once again, I'm sure that's not what you were talking about. She almost awakens as a result of being in such a bad situation because of Sid and Galk. Then, Clare is sent to die in a battle with a male awakened being because she half awakened. No fault of her's, unless you consider her having the willpower to return from awakening a fault. Then she gets paired with the pyscho Ophelia, and once again, we can't blame her for this. Clare had actually tried to avoid attracting attention on herself after the male awakened being, but no matter. By the time the whole Ophelia thing is over, Clare is for a brief moment free... and then she tries to rescue some comrades from Riful. Once again, I assume you're not talking about herioc deeds. After that, Clare is found by the orginization and sent north... on another suicide mission. No fault of hers once again. While there, she nearly awakened completely. But it was the only way to defeat the lion guy. That she behaves rashly when near awakened and sensing Priscilla can't really be held against her either.] Can anyone tell I like Clare?
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18248 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Clare practically goes looking for trouble at times (such as her eagerness to fight Awakened Beings) and sometimes lets her drive for vengeance overwhelm her common sense. (I was just watching the recently-released volume 4 earlier tonight, and the point in episode 16 where spoiler[she would have let Riful goad her into Awakening had Galatea not stopped her] is a good example of this.) She's also a little too quick to give up when spoiler[on the brink of Awakening]. Admittedly, these are picky points, and Mai certainly has her own flaws, too, but I'm having to nitpick to make a reasoned choice here. You don't have to explain to me anything about Clare; I've read the manga and not only reviewed multiple volumes of the anime but seen it in one form or another more frequently than any other series I've watched in the past couple of years. Hell, I even have my own website devoted to it! Thus I know exactly what choice I'm making here, and why. |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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I was hoping I might be able to convince you since it was a close choice for you. I don't suppose my arguements to Dorcus and JesuOtaku had much of an effect on you? Oh well, can't blame me for trying, can you? |
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BES Null Core
 Posts: 604 Location: 六十周年的东方裁判 |
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You have just admitted that she holds hatred for a particular character. You have neglected to mention, however, that she held such a hatred for years, possibly decades, given the unknown lifespan of a Claymore, with her skills entirely honed to fight the class of monsters to which her target belongs. Hate and revenge are negative emotions and do not form the basis of heroism. Thus, her reason for existence and improvement may be attributed to a violent goal. Her opponent is Mai, who spoiler[at best lets loose her anger for a moment--at the moment when her loved ones are killed--and even then manages to reign in her wrath.] Mai spoiler[comes to terms with the terms of the game, realizes that the Himes are victims, and willingly embraced an opponent that caused her so much grief,] thus spoiler[earning a well-deserved happy ending.] It would be entirely irresponsible not to hold Clare's nursing of years of hatred against her when pitted against a magnanimous girl like Mai.
First, her lifelong quest for revenge is not for a fallen comrade. spoiler[Teresa died before she became a claymore.] In fact, the revenge is the only reason spoiler[she became a claymore.] The motivation is entirely personal and thus by no means makes the act selfless, precisely the opposite--incidentally, this rebutts your next claim about her supposed selflessness. Second, the answer is not "no." It's a resounding "yes." Let us review episode 9. First, Clare engages a group of yoma, among which is supposed to be an awakened (thus far called voracious eater). She seeks revenge on a voracious eater, and Louvre sees immediately that the reason she engaged the yoma without waiting for the other claymore is that she seeks to fight awakened to "prove her worth"; he says as much to her. Her act clearly endangered a townsman, and she bet the other claymores' ability to get there in time and made no effort whatsoever to pursue the yoma. Her lust for revenge prompted her to seek to prove her ability to hunt awakened; she engaged a group of yoma without waiting for the other group members; and as a result, she put the townsman's life in danger and made no attempt to correct the problem herself.
Let's review exactly how this persuasion occurred. spoiler[Raki physically threw himself at Clare, thus interrupting her swing when it barely began and had no momentum. He then convinced her with a speech while holding her back. By then, she has given so far into her battle lust that her most loyal friend had to sacrifice herself to pull her back.] Compare this with Mai, who spoiler[had but a flash of anger right when her loved ones were killed and held back. She realized the tragedy behind the Hime festival by observing the tragedy around her and coming to terms with her plight, ultimately coming to the correct conclusion that the Himes were not to blame; the masterminds were.] Clare simply cannot compare with Mai.
Let's review the fight. First, Clare dodges a blow in such a way that she cannot possible protect Raki. spoiler[Galk interrupts and blocks a blow for Raki. When Galk was overpowered, she blocks a hit from the yoma with her dagger--not her body.] When they rejoined the fight, it started with spoiler[Galk protecting her with his body, not the other way around.] They got the upper hand by spoiler[having Galk be a distraction and body shield, taking hits and holding the yoma's fingers.] The picture you paint of a heroic claymore going out of her way to protect a bunch of defenseless humans does not exist. At best, it shows that she takes advantage of human aid when proper and has the basic decency of reciprocating a helping hand. Compare this with Mai, who spoiler[blocked a hit from an orbital beam to protect the academy when she could have easily run away in time.]
There's nothing that says she has to save the life of a girl dying of exposure/starvation, or take care of an orphen. With the change of gender of one noun, I have just converted the sentence to describe Mai. Let us now compare how the two came to be responsible for and cared for their charges. First, Clare. spoiler[She saved the boy while fighting enemies she is expected to be capable of handling. She tolerated his presence rather than sought him out, providing care for him by exerting no great effort, such as throwing her sword at a lizard. She parts with some gold for which she has little to no use and was given to her by the organization.] Clare sacrificed very little in dragging Raki around. Second, Mai. spoiler[She sought out and took care of Mikoto before her Hime powers manifested, despite Mikoto's being embroiled in fights beyond her power at the time. She took Mikoto in hand, caring for her like a mother when she has to work to support a family of three.] Mai was willing to take care of Mikoto despite the troubles and dangers it brought. Your points in support of Clare are either false or cannot compare with Mai. Underrated or not, Clare is certainly not the one who is deserving of advancing. |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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A class of monsters that are evil demons that eat people. It's not like she was persecuting anybody. She was protecting people by killing them. Plus, the moment she made the decision to become a claymore, there was no going back. It's not like she could suddenly decide "nah, I don't want revenge so I'm not going to bother" after she had Yoma flesh implanted in her. After that one decision, she was a claymore, no going back, so why not continue to work on her skills?
Fallen friend, or fallen spoiler[mother figure] then, not fallen comrade. It doesn't really make that much of a difference if it's a friend or a collegue or whatever. And I admitted that the reason she became a claymore was for revenge: it was her actions afterwards that were not for such. Clare risked her life at times when she didn't have to: she recklessly endangered herself to help strangers. That is a course of action that would not help with revenge. She did behave rashly at times, I admitted such, but rashness alone is not enough to take away from her other qualifications.
Wrong. spoiler["Awakening" is not mere battle lust, to even compare it is absurd. And the fact that Raki interupted her means little, considering Priscilla was an unstable monster that ate people, Clare was hardly unherioc to try and kill her.]
I think you are getting mixed up a bit. And I love the way you try and make her seem reckless. Clare was injured before Raki ever got on the scene, before the fight you describe even started. Remember how? Oh, wait... spoiler[she tried to protect Sid and Galk and got injured. ] Exactly like I said. Well, she I don't think she purposely got hurt, but it doesn't change the fact that she was left herself open to protect the two of them. EDIT: Adding some more, in regard to this:
spoiler[ She saved him once while fighting enemies, than saved him again when she found him collapsed, then saved him again when the Yoma went after him to get to her, all in the span of a single episode. The third time she saved him she suffered a wound that was pretty severe and actually did risk dying. Yes, she claimed that she only did it to stop the Yoma from fleeing, but I think that's fairly obviously a lie (especially since right after that she decided to let Raki travel with her.) The fact that it was Raki who sought her out doesn't take away from what she did. And sure, she didn't have much trouble providing for him after that as far as food was concerned, but "Clare's too good at hunting and doesn't have much use for money herself" isn't really a mark against her. She also did try and provide for him better, and hoped to give him a home in Rabana, though he convinced her to let him continue to travel with him. I'm not saying that what Mai did wasn't just as herioc, I'm not familiar enough with the series to even comment unfortunately, but don't try and act like what Clare did was nothing.] Last edited by Mad_Scientist on Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:04 am; edited 2 times in total |
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arachneia
Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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I'm kind of hesitant to answer this because it's going to open a whole new can of worms, but here we go: When looking at characters in an analytic fashion, I think characterization and the microcosm of the person's motives and behavior should be viewed side by side with the bigger picture, and that is the context of the given character not only in his or her own universe, but in all of art (or entertainment, in this case) in general. You have to consider Sailor Moon not only in relation to those around her, but also in comparison to other characters of the same stock and caliber that come from other stories of the same genre. What you'll inevitably come away with is that she is a generic character whose story has been told and retold since time immemorial. She may be kind, selfless, brave, and a thousand others lovely epithets, but all of that falls flat when you realize that she is little more than a walking cliche. Then again, most shojo heroines are, because, let's face it, it's a genre aimed at children. One can make the argument that the question of genres and their respective quality is moot, since we're looking at what makes people heroic, but how are you going to differentiate between two stock heroes that are exactly the same? Usagi's generic. Goku's generic. Ichigo, Naruto, and every other powered-up thirteen-year-old protagonist are generic. There are small variations here and there, but it is mostly the same model of a hero, so how would you choose one over the other?
Have you ever heard of Joseph Cambell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces? |
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arachneia
Posts: 415 Location: On the wings of Bob Lennon |
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This is absolutely incorrect, not only because the definition of heroism is concerned with the weight of a person's deeds rather than their motivations, but also because one of the most well known heroes of all time had had an epic poem dedicated to his rage and vindictiveness. I know that in this modern times we tend to put more stock in reason and introspection as pillars of true humanity - and, by extension, real heroism, but there is a lot to be said about good old impulsive hatred unburdened by principles of pacifism and forgiveness. It's become an almost negative and shameful thing to want to hurt those who have hurt you - because this is not an intellectual response. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, and such. Yet it is neither shameful nor negative to want to stand up for yourself and punish those who have wronged you with full intent and zero remorse. Whether this is ethical or not is admittedly a great question, but it is not necessarily a question of heroism. |
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