Forum - View topicCensorship in yaoi manga
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↑↓←→BEAR
 Posts: 10 Location: Scotland |
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The way I see it, there is a law there, the guy broke said law and got the minimum sentence. From your post I can see you disagree with the law itself, however you can't really say that, given the law is in place, he shouldn't be given some kind of punishment. On the point regarding horror stories, I think it's fair to say that most people carry your opinion that just because you write violent fiction, it does not then follow that you are violent yourself. For whatever reason socially the same cannot be said for writing stories regarding sexual encounters with children, the majority seems to sway in favour of the belief that such a person is now an active sexual threat towards children. Now this is pretty common knowledge, so knowing that and yet still going ahead with the writing of these stories wasn't the wisest thing to do I'd say. |
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HyugaHinata
 Posts: 3505 |
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Jury nullification could have let him off. He should've been acquitted, the same way Kevorkian was acquitted until he pushed the button himself. These laws are so archaic and poorly enforced that they're not worth following, either by the general public or by law enforcement officials. |
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↑↓←→BEAR
Posts: 10 Location: Scotland |
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It's a twisted irony that you say this and yet recent trends have been to strengthen these laws, there have even been similar convictions seen in Japan in recent years direct towards the mangaka. |
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rinmackie
 Posts: 1040 Location: in a van! down by the river! |
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The only laws that have been passed in Japan regarding virtual child porn manga only punishes selling such manga to minors or displaying them in a place where they might see it. And usually the punishment is a heavy fine, I believe. So, yeah, such stuff is still legal in Japan.
As for your argument about writing horror stories don't lead to murder but writing about sex can lead to sex crimes; that doesn't make any sense. As I've already mentioned I've read many stories involving questionable sex practices but I have yet to act on any of them. And just because there's a law, doesn't mean it's a good law. Slavery used to be legal where I live, but now supporting such a thing seems abhorrent to most people today. |
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↑↓←→BEAR
Posts: 10 Location: Scotland |
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Em... I think my argument stated that people in general believe that someone reading this sort of material is likely to be a threat. Now I'm not saying I agree with that, but with this particular issue there is a a social standard that we really ought to adhere to. The difference between this and slavery is that realistically you can't say it's a huge human rights violation that you can't read child porn books. Also I believe the fact that people only tend to defend this on the net under anonymity and don't step up to challenge any of these laws proves my point that we all know it's socially abhorant. I guess my main opinion is that whether or not the law is correct it's fairly easy to avoid being burned by it if you simply don't read the stuff. If someone genuinely states that they need to read material of this kind and can't stop themselves from doing so then they clearly have issues going on. |
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Wooga
 Posts: 916 Location: Tucson |
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That's pretty weird, that they would publish it at all if they couldn't get the whole thing !
It reminds me of Berserk, early on in that manga series there is a child rape, why is that publishable but not a romance with a middle-schooler? |
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rinmackie
Posts: 1040 Location: in a van! down by the river! |
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Just because most people seem to agree on something doesn't necessarily mean it's right or true. And I'm not afraid to admit reading this stuff and the only reason I'm not going to give out personal information on the internet is because I don't want to be harassed. Actually, it's not a good idea for anyone to give out personal information on the internet, regardless of what they're reading.
I don't know about where you're from, but here in the State's you're innocent till proven guilty and the law has to have a sufficient reason and a warrant to search your property. (At least that's the way it's supposed to be.) I don't feel compelled to read materials that depict fictional pedophilia. But I don't think I or any other adult needs to be protected from it. (Children shouldn't be exposed to it, of course.) I should be allowed to decide for myself, and not some publisher whether or not I should read about such things. Matter of fact, I'm sure most of what I've read over my lifetime has contained little or no sex. As for my real life, I have ZERO interest in children or teens and I've never molested any children nor do I feel compelled to do so. |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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I can't speak for other countries, just the US since I've lived here all my life, but they do seem to reflect the same idiocy around the world. People are knee-jerk when it comes to kids. That's it. Do yourself a favor & research the McMartin Preschool debaucle or the other child abuse cases that ran thru the US in the 1980's. Parent over-react badly when it comes to their children. I used to mentally freak out at the crap I heard playing chaperone on school field trips when my daughter was in elementary school and yeah, I did speak up at some of the idiocy being mouthed. In the immortal words of Kay from Men in Black-
It is terrifying what parents can believe. My sister-in-law insisted cats regularly ate the fingers off babies.
So I'm traipsing lightly thru "When Harlie was One" when I was in 8th grade? 10th? I forget. It's about this computer talking over the world were one to sum it up in one line. Suddenly the protagonist is having sex. Why? Don't know. It had NOTHING to do with the plot really. Probably just inserted to sell copies. Now, I was a minor, but I don't think they rated books back in the '70's as mature or not-I can't recall. So when I read Breath, I didn't know there was a censor (I've only read the first book). Can't say it NEEDS a scene showing the guy's first time, but how the hell am I to know when I start the story that the author has deemed it necessary to include such a scene? It's not what the book is about. Obviously the author thought it needed it. I should go to jail because I want to read an otherwise good story? I was very upset Drama Queen didn't just up the age in Lovely Sick. There is NO WAY around that being shota other than they don't consumate until he's almost legal, Had they taken him up to 14 or 15 when the dr met him, it would have been far more acceptable than the boy being around 12. It really doesn't affect the story for the age to be upped to match our rules (note in most yaoi the blanket statement that anyone having sex in this book is legal age). Kitty did it for Level C--uke is in High School & they just made him college from my understanding. I don't get the attraction to underage flesh.
Are you a doctor? That's a hell of a prognosis. I have loved horror most of my life. I have seen & read characters slaughtered in horrendous fashions yet I have never desired to do so myself. If I can be attracted to horror stories because they move me in ways the average fiction tale cannot yet I do not have what most would deem unhealthy desires in connection with that taste, how can I say people who want to read shota or loli have any desire to live out those stories? In fact, does it not suggest the majority of those who read loli or shota are absolutely as normal as I am? Who am I to judge them? And who are you to judge others? The small percentage who are a problem need to be addressed as a problem & not the norm. |
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aaronsnell89
 Posts: 8 Location: Belton, South Carolina |
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A person should not be judged by what they do, not what they read! Judging a person for what they read is a travesty. That's just my opinion though.
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↑↓←→BEAR
Posts: 10 Location: Scotland |
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Jeez, I don't even know if I have the time to reply to all your points,
but at least this thread is more of a debate now 
I guess I can sum up one issue around this first, the guy pleaded guilty to owning material that's "dominant characteristic is the description, for a sexual purpose, of sexual activity" At the end of the day, if the guy didn't want to defend himself then the law was carried through in the correct manner. Unless you guys think the court should go 'well, you agree you have illegal material so off you go, this law's a joke anyway." I agree that there is a great deal of confusion about which material is and isn't illegal. In fact I've taken a similar stance to you guys in the past because state law in USA creates all sorts of problems with an issue like this. But I have taken the stance that even if I disagree with a law, it's better to adhere to it unless it's worth fighting to change. I think, at this time, fighting to defend the rights to read shota/loli etc is suicidal in the current social climate and as the material is for entertainment purposes it's difficult to put forward an argument why we would need it. Basically the point comes down to what we want and what we need. The majority want child porn of any kind to be eradicated. Fact. The minority who want it can't claim to need it unless they have an explanation of why it's needed as they are basically defending their position against a very strong and aggressive opposition. This is where the issue lies as the only argument that's really sufficient is artistic merit. Unfortunately 'artistic merit' is something that must be judged on a case by case basis so every potential child porn allegation of this kind is going to go to court. I think the key thing to take from my point is that the law isn't going to change and if anything, it's going to get stricter. So if you can't live without it you have to accept that you may be one of the unlucky ones to get caught out or you could move to somewhere with a more lenient law. As stated already though , even Japan are reconsidering how they deal with this and there have been a few manga banned and authors punished in recent years for this sort of thing (though, to be fair, the laws in Japan are still pretty generous compared with the West) And finally to aaronsnell89. Can you define what you mean by do as it could mean any number of things in this discussion i.e. viewing images of a sexual act on a child, engaging in a sexual act with a child etc... |
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rinmackie
Posts: 1040 Location: in a van! down by the river! |
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So basically you're saying that's the way it is and we should just accept it? The freedom to read and look at something most people find objectionable may not be a big deal to you but it is to many on this board. Why? Because many people in the mainstream assume that most anime and manga are pornographic and/or violent. Because of this there have been attempts to ban it, but with little success thankfully. So you can't assume that because you don't read this sort of material that you're safe. Because to those on the outside, it all looks the same.
And as I mentioned earlier, Japan is nowhere close to banning animated/drawn child porn. (If anything it seems to be getting worse.) They do just enough to keep kids from being exposed to it, but that's about it. As for real child porn in Japan, making it is illegal but owning it is not and that is one thing they do need to change. |
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↑↓←→BEAR
Posts: 10 Location: Scotland |
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Prompt response as always
2011 to be precise, or at least that's when Japan have agreed to come to some conclusion on the law. Whether they ban it or not the fact is a ban of some kind is under consideration.
I think here you have to compare the banning of shota/loli and the banning of anime and manga as a whole. Anime and manga is a far easier thing to defend as any considered banning on the basis that it's all kiddie porn can be instantly crippled by showing overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I'm not 100% sure how that's relevant though as trying to distinguish that anime/manga are a seperate concept from loli/shota would surely have a better impact on social understanding than defending loli/shota. Really you actually appear to harbor a similar opinion to my own that ideally we should clearly define what is and isn't illegal on an international scale, which isn't going to happen. Saying that something is right or wrong based on location is a farce, but unfortunately that's the way things are. I do concede that my sensitivity to this subject is somewhat lacking as state law doesn't apply in my country. |
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aaronsnell89
Posts: 8 Location: Belton, South Carolina |
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The reading of shota or loli shouldn't be illegal, because it's fictional and I'd rather someone read that instead of going out and molesting some innocent child. Though I'm not saying that all those that read it would do that, but you know what I mean.
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RestLessone
 Posts: 1426 Location: New York |
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On the case: Whether or not the law is just, it's in Canada where virtual child porn is illegal. It's one of those sketchy cases, and in my personal opinion he should have followed the law, whether he agreed with it or not. A problem with it, though, is that it was written...And a lot of people could have trouble deciphering whether the law meant only drawn stuff or if it included written works as well.
Laws in Canada are different than in the US. He had no shot at getting out of it because he did write it and it's considered written child porn. If he were in the US, he could have actually had a defense. If they want it changed, they'll have to fight for it. I rather have people reading/writing it than doing anything to a kid, and maybe statistics in Canada will show if there's a correlation or not, seeing as they have laws against it and we don't, so there would probably be a rise or fall in rates. |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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That link said
His own fantasies written down. Yeah, he was dumb to write it on a demo computer at work, but still, he never sought to publish it. It was about teen girls--not prepubescent children. This is horrifying Teen girls like 16 yr old Miley Cyrus doing photo shoots & provocative videos using sex to sell their product to millions of adults around the world. legal age gals made up to pass for teens. American Pie & all the other movies that portray teens having sex.
It would be nice for them to have the guts to declare it unconstitutional.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_care_sexual_abuse_hysteria Dale Akiki was local And thank god people didn't just roll over on the issue as you support being done. Reason can win if people believe justice is more important than tilting at child porn windmills.
Just like the majority wanted witches eradicated by any & all means. What's wrong with being reasonable over hysterical? Thomas Bowdler thought Shakespeare needed censoring. Thank god the rest of the world didn't agree. However small censorship is ok such as that age bit. Unless there is a major reason for the age to be under 19, there should be no harm to upping the age. On the other hand, Freddy Krugar is a child molester. Changing it to his attacking a bunch of 18+ young people would reduce his horror. He IS a monster in life & death. |
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